Figure Skating Champions SURVIVOR: Ladies SEMI-FINAL

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by SamuraiK, Jul 13, 2012.

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Who is the weakest link among these past champions?

Poll closed Jul 18, 2012.
  1. Michelle Kwan

    63 vote(s)
    15.7%
  2. Irina Slutskaya

    205 vote(s)
    51.0%
  3. Yuna Kim

    134 vote(s)
    33.3%
  1. Excidra

    Excidra New Member

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    Surya Bonaly the multiple world medalist and technically strong skater and Chen the world champion and twice Olympic medalist. Whether her basics sucked or Chinese federation lacked influence doesn't deter from the fact that both ladies were world gold contenders during their days.

    And as fars as Ando and Kostner go, yes they are wc, but they were never a competition for Yuna when all skater clean.
  2. shady82

    shady82 New Member

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    I don't think we should be comparing Slutskaya to Bonaly and Chen. During the period these three were competing together, Slutskaya wasn't competing for gold because she wasn't a top-level skater yet. Only from 99-00 on was Slutskaya in top shape and could contend for gold.

    Irina really only had to compete against one skater at a time when she was contending at the top. From 2000-2002, Kwan was the only major skater she had to worry about. Butyrskaya, a bit, but she was like an Ando or Kostner for Kim. Then for two seasons Irina had various hardships, and came back in top shape for 04-05 and 05-06. During this period, Irina's only main rival was Sasha, if even. Shizuka was a factor one time only because Irina skated unusually poorly in Torino.
  3. Cheylana

    Cheylana Well-Known Member

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    Voted for Slutskaya but I was tempted to vote for Kim. I'm swayed in large part by the fact that Kim got OGM on her first try, and under crushing pressure from the entire South Korean population at that, whereas Irina underperformed and came up short in three tries. Irina's extra World gold doesn't make up for that.
  4. sk8ingcoach

    sk8ingcoach Active Member

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    This is stupid..... Yuna should win this easy, but there are too many kwan fans even though her technical ability is crap
  5. Badams

    Badams Well-Known Member

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    You should totally BOYCOTT!!!
  6. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    :lol:
    Nah, I suggest a jump-off between the 2 Ks. Whoever landed the most 3Rs in competition wins! :p
  7. bartek

    bartek New Member

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    Whoever landed the most triple-triples in competition wins! And we don't even have to consider their difficulty! And the fact that one of them landed one 3T-3T per year and the other one 6 3F-3T or 3Lz+3T per year with superior height and flow :lol:
  8. sk8ingcoach

    sk8ingcoach Active Member

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    so true
  9. magnolia

    magnolia New Member

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    This is a popularity contest, not a jumping contest!

    If it were the former, then Midori would win no question about it.
  10. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Dont be too sure, on FSU I wouldnt be surprised if Kwan even won that. :lol:
  11. falling_dance

    falling_dance Well-Known Member

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    How soon did we all forget that Trash Can elimination game from late 2008 in which Midori Ito--not Kwan--had the highest score after 1,000 posts!
  12. jatale

    jatale New Member

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    I think Kim is the best overall technical skater ever in female skating history so far, and also very high on the artistic content side. I certainly don't buy the argument that she has competed against a weaker field that the skaters before her. (Mao is an incredible talent, certainly among the best female skaters ever, and as top-notch a champion and rival as ever existed in female figure skating.) As with every sport, in figure skating the skill levels and competitive depth gets better overall with each passing year. That is the way of things and records will continue to fall. Within ten years the women might be doing quads....
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2012
  13. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

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    True, outta reps for U.
  14. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    And when having actual transitions in her program, doing more difficult footwork and spins, skating faster, and having at least equally good skating skills. :lol: The only thing Kwan has skating-wise over Kim is the spiral sequence, IMO.
  15. flipforsynchro

    flipforsynchro New Member

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    If Kim was so good, she should've been freakin able to be more than 1 time WC. everyone knows Kim has harder, better jumps, but Kwan was able take what she had and become 5 time WC and two time OM.
  16. michiruwater

    michiruwater Well-Known Member

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    Kim hasn't even been old enough to go to two Olympics yet, you know. Kwan won 5 times out of 12 at the WCs. Kim has won, yes, only once, at 5 WCs, and I doubt she'll do another seven, but she's only 21 still.
  17. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    yes, but we went over this.

    in 5 years:
    Kim: OGM, 1WC, 2 silver, 2 bronze
    Kwan: Oly Silver, 2 WC, 2 silver
    Irina: No Oly medal, no WC, 1 silver, 1 bronze

    Irina's clearly the weakest by far.
    RunnersHigh and (deleted member) like this.
  18. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Kim has more medals at this stage of her career than Kwan did. Contrary to what was posted above, Kwan did not medal in first two appearances at Worlds. In 5 years, she achieved one gold and two silvers at Worlds, and one silver at the Olympics. Kim won bronze her first two Worlds (better than Kwan's non-podium finishes), then a gold and two silvers, but she also won the OGM. So they both had two major titles by this point.
  19. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    Seriously, do we need to agree on parameters before making simple comparisons? Kwan's first two worlds were at 13 and 14, an age that Kim surely would have competed at had she been allowed to had the rules not changed. Would it make you feel better to make up finishes Kim would have probably made had she been allowed at 05 and 06 worlds? :rolleyes: Or shoudl we just bring Mao back as the probably 06 OGM? :rolleyes: Or, I know, let's pretend that Kwan was allowed to skate in Lillehammer and just say she came in 13th at her first Oly's while vastly more talented Kim won gold on her first. :lol:
    I also tried to even it out for fairness by starting the comparisons at the beginning of a Oly cycle. Or do you have some complicated formula for figuring out bonus points for finishing behind medalists about to retire, etc..? :p
  20. bartek

    bartek New Member

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    Irina got her medals later in her career and it's actually very admirable that she won her second world title at the age of 26. She was dominating ladies figure skating while being 25, 26 and 27. This is much harder to do when you're that old than when you're still in your teens like Kim did. We will see the level of Yu-Na's skating now when she's older. It's not so sure she'll be as good as she was in the past when she won her titles.
  21. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    You could make up all kinds of scenarios. You could discount Kwan's 94 because she also competed at junior worlds that year, but then she doesn't medal until two years after winning juniors, whereas Kim won a medal the season after winning juniors. Etc etc.

    But it's probably easier to just go with the actual results. It probably does penalize Kwan a bit for being talented enough to make senior worlds that young, while she was not ready to medal yet, but then others were penalized for things outside of their control , like Mao, who probably indeed would have medalled in 2006 but we have to go with facts which is that she did not. And on the flip side, one could argue that the experience of skating in senior worlds for two years without pressure does give Kwan some kind of advantage that Mao and Kim did not have because they had to wait until they were eligible.
  22. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    ITA. Irina has admitted to seriously contemplating quitting in 99. Perhaps Kim could also find that amazing 2nd wind, but it's even more unlikely than Irina's unlikely but amazing comeback, because of what I'll call "the Lipinski factor". :D Just as it's harder to defend than challenge, it harder to stay competitive when you've already won the sport's top prizes. A 2nd OGM for Kim in Sochi would be :kickass: IMHO.
    You're probably right. Despite my best efforts to make the apples and oranges both look like pears, I've probably just made lemonade. :D
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2012
  23. RunnersHigh

    RunnersHigh Active Member

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    IMHO, World Championships and Yuna were strangers, just like Olympics and Kwan.

    • 2007: 1st in SP, 4th in FS, 3rd in Total (With Back injury)
    • 2008: 5th in SP, 1st in FS, 3rd in Total (With Back injury)
    • 2009: 1st in SP, 1st in FS, 1st in Total (Injury Free)
    • 2010: 7th in SP, 1st in FS, 2nd in Total (Right after Olympics)
    • 2011: 1st in SP, 2nd in FS, 2nd in Total (First competition after 2010 Worlds)

    Nevertheless, she went some! I mean she won SP, FS or both in any case. Back to the topic, it's *really* hard for me to vote. I have no criteria for comparing those champions and I don't care who wins. ;)
    PeterG and (deleted member) like this.
  24. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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    I hope Kim wins this
  25. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Kim's biggest problem is she won only 1 of 5 Worlds even though she could have easily won all 5. She didnt even need to skate cleanly to win any of them. She would have won in 2007 and 2008 with just one major mistake, and in 2010 and 2011 with just several mistakes over the two programs rather than the huge number she made. Had she won all 5 of those as she should have managed, or even 3 or 4 of the 5 she would rightfully be regarded as the best skater ever today but she didnt and she isnt. Allowing a mediocre skater like Miki Ando to have more World titles than her in the same era is an embarassment for a skater of her caliber, I am sure even she secretly feels the same way. That is also why she will lose this game when it enters the last round.

    At her best she would definitely beat Kwan in a head to head competition, but Kwan is a much stronger competitor.
  26. flipforsynchro

    flipforsynchro New Member

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    Someday, I will learn how to explain things like you...
  27. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    That sums it up pretty nicely. Kim's Olympic performances are probably the best ever by any woman (even though her LP leaves a lot to be desired artistically IMO). I can't think of anyone who could defeat those two programs, especially under that system. But, she only managed that once in her career. If she and Kwan had gone head to head in their primes, I suspect many titles would have been traded and Kwan would have come out on top slightly more often because of her consistency. A clean Kwan was more than capable of taking many of the world titles that Kim missed out on. The showdown between them in the next round should be very interesting.

    :watch:

    ETA: I feel bad voting Irina out, first time I've voted for her, but third place in this field is well-deserved and respectable. She was a remarkable skater and competitor who I miss even though I wasn't a fan.
  28. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    Shrug. I can see how Kim coulda/shoulda/woulda been a 5 time WC, but then I can also see how Kwan coulda/shoulda/woulda been a 2 time ogm and at least 8 time WC. 97, 99 and 02 and possibly even 04, were all there ripe for the pickin and she could have had them too had she not faltered due to injury, illness, fatigue, poor judgement in firing famous coach, etc... Pretty much all the same things that kept Kim from winning too.
  29. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    But despite that, Kwan persevered and still came out with more medals and titles. I can't think of any other woman in the world who could land at LEAST 6 triples in the final freeskate at worlds for 10 years in a row (94-2003). Kim didn't even do that once.
  30. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    Techinally I find it a stand off... Kwan laid down more clean 7 triple attempted LPs, but Kim had more impressive jumps and combos. What really surges Kwan ahead IMO is the 2nd mark. No other woman on the list reached that level of presentation IMO. Kim is almost as icy and distant as shiz.
  31. bartek

    bartek New Member

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    The presentation level is really a subjective thing. I think that many, even on this board, would argue with your statement saying that e.g. Lu Chen reached even higher level of presentation. But for example me, I don't find anything special about Lu Chen's presentation. On the other hand, I reckon that the woman who reached the highest level of presentation is definitely Sasha Cohen. I agree that Yu-Na tends to be icy and distant but I'm sure many consider her to be the best artist ever on the ice...

    I love Slutskaya's power and energy and most people on this forum don't like this type of skating. It's all subjective...
  32. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Presentation is definitely subjective. The judges seemed to think Nancy Kerrigan and Oksana Baiul were oh so artistic, and that was their biggest edge on the other top skaters at the time, but for me they were :yikes: I thought Lu Chen, Yuka Sato, and even Josee Chouinard had much better LPs presentation wise that year, when skated well, but definitely not the judges.

    I also didnt find Kristi Yamaguchi as an amateur any better artistically than Midori Ito, but the judges felt so strongly, so much so Ito needed to hit all her triple axels and everything else in her arsenal to hope to win.
  33. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Of course Kim was developing her skills while/after Kwan was dominating figure skating with Slute not far behind.
  34. sk8ingcoach

    sk8ingcoach Active Member

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    KIM SHOULD WIN
  35. flipforsynchro

    flipforsynchro New Member

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    No
  36. miki88

    miki88 New Member

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    Michelle should definitely win this in the end. There is no question she is the best overall skater and competitor. One can argue about all the titles Kim should have won, but the number of times she actually skated two clean programs back to back is pretty few. Also, Michelle is the better artist and has far more memorable programs.
  37. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with the part about presentation being very subjective.
    I for one found Michelle to be kind of distant but find Yu-Na, Chen and Sasha to be very engaging. I also love Slute's amazingly high energy levels and charisma entertaining.
    Presentation is all about subjectivity which is why this sort of poll is fun. It gets people to explain why they think certain things are the case.

    For me, I find Sasha's presentation particularly amazing because of the expression in her arms. Also, her amazing flexibility and extension combined with the way that these stretches came with the music (in contrast to Lipnitskaya who has arguably more flexibility but doesn't captivate me) always reeled me in. But this isn't really about Sasha (or Chen who I wish was still in), so back on topic.

    I always loved Yuna's use of her whole body (even though her spirals were fug) throughout her programs. I loved her step sequences and never felt like they were overly long even though they probably were just because every movement hit a beat and drew me in more. I know that people criticize her layback, but it was the best out of the three remaining because of its amazing speed and centering as well as her effortless transition between positions.
    Also, I felt like her jumps upped her presentation in that they were so effortless and fluid. They were always timed beautifully with the music and had amazing technique.
  38. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    I think people delude themselves into thinking they aren't being completely subjective about the technical mark as well.
  39. Alex Forrest

    Alex Forrest Banned Member

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    I agree. God, I remember way back in 1994 on the first internet skating discussion groups, I couldn't understand how Nancy was considered 'artistic'. Her Jane Fonda jazzercise programs were IMO unartistic, and it appeared she had no musicality, only a few set moves (Nancy spiral, and, er, what else?), a pretty face and a $15000 dress and instantly she was artistic. Baiul I could understand because her musicality and ability to interpret all types of genres was apparent. I also found Chen, Sato, and Chouinard much more appealing than Kerrigan and with better presentation.

    As for Kristi v Ito, it all came down to body form. Ito had those bowed legs that just could never compete in spirals, spins, etc from an aesthetic side. I did like may of Ito's programs and always felt like she was a "5.8" skater and if she really hit, a "5.9". Kristi had better lines and slightly more musicality so I'd have her a tenth higher on the second mark. In a way Ito/Yama was like Slute/Kwan.
  40. flipforsynchro

    flipforsynchro New Member

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    Kim's spiral isn't too bad seen not on TV. I saw it on a fan cam and it was passable. It just looks horrific on TV.