Figure Skating Champions SURVIVOR: Ladies ROUND 8

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by SamuraiK, Jul 1, 2012.

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Who is the weakest link among these past champions?

Poll closed Jul 6, 2012.
  1. Lu Chen

    137 vote(s)
    39.1%
  2. Michelle Kwan

    21 vote(s)
    6.0%
  3. Irina Slutskaya

    43 vote(s)
    12.3%
  4. Mao Asada

    120 vote(s)
    34.3%
  5. Yuna Kim

    29 vote(s)
    8.3%
  1. t.mann

    t.mann New Member

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    Really!

    current state
    Chen : 140
    Mao : 120

    Amazing. :lol:
  2. bartek

    bartek New Member

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    Irina may not have performed a clean seven triples program as often as Michelle because usually she just attempted 6 triples what was fair enough to win for her. AFAIK Irina had three seven triples programs in her career and all of them are totally unreachable by Kim, Kwan and even Asada technically.

    GPF 1999-2000 with 3Lz+3Lo and 3S+3Lo
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SXO6s3MCDw

    2001 Russian Nats with 3Lz+3Lo
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V97gZ2GZq7Q

    Worlds 2005 with 3Lz+3Lo
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvBSI97Vuw8

    None of Michelle's programs compare to those technially. Soem of Asada's programs with triple axel and two triple-triples can be compared though but still Asada didn't include all kind of triples.

    Besides, Irina skated CLEANLY in the free skate about 15 times in her whole career just about the same as Michelle. That's big consistency.
  3. RumbleFish

    RumbleFish New Member

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    One thing this poll does, is fully exposes uberdom among certain posters.
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2012
  4. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    Not at all, where in my post did I even mention the Olympics? I doubt you'll bother replying, since you didn't bother replying to the last message in a previous thread where I proved you wrong too :p

    Overall all in their senior careers Yuna was more consistent and had more success. That's pretty much factual when you look at the results and protocols.

    Ok, so one competition where Yuna wins isn't allowed to count for Yuna, but the only time Mao lands three triple axels in one competition (the same competition no less) is allowed to count :confused:

    Can you post a link to the protocols that show Mao landing two 3/3s and 3A because I cannot recall a single programme where this happened, unless you are counting that programme she did at nationals when she was 11 (maybe 12) and seriously under-rotated the 3/3s and 3A.

    Again, please post a link to the protocls that show she has done a programme where she landed all the triples in one programme because I cannot recall a single competition where that happened.


    Well i've never seen Asada include multiple triple axels as well as several 3/3s in the same performance either you keep pretneding that she does, but that's simply not true. If it is, please post the link to the protocls that show this.
  5. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    :confused:
    Except her 2005 Worlds LP, the other performances include cheated 3/3.
    Michelle Kwan won 2001 WOrlds, with Irina skating a better LP than her Russian Nats.
  6. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    I guess multiple dinners in a row... ;)
  7. gingercrush

    gingercrush New Member

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    2007 Worlds FS has pre-rotation on the Triple Axel. Rules changed after 2006-2007 season too.

    Anyway Mao Asada's 2007 GPF FS is undoubtedly the most difficult program performed by a women. One can argue the negative GOEs on jumps all they want or point to ridiculous supposeable two foot skating all they want. Name one skater that could perform that program?
  8. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    :rofl: She broke the Zayak rule so that can't count as a seven triple programme, three of the same triple is illegal she didn't get credit for it at the competition.

    Also the GPF 3/3s were not the best quality - the 3Lp on the end of the lutz had a good 1/3 or a turn on the landing, and the triple loop she did on the end of the salchow landed right up on the toe, and she a one rev camel spin on the toe pic on the landing. She stood them up but they were not good quality.
  9. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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    Kind of sad considering that if she had done another triple toe or something before the double loop, she probably would have had the WR score until Yuna came along and broke all those records.
  10. miki88

    miki88 New Member

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    Ita. Also according to the protocals, she did get the jumps ratified; she got negative GOE on some of them but they were still counted as fully rotated jumps.
  11. gingercrush

    gingercrush New Member

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    Though if Ito and Harding were transported to now who knows what those two skaters could do. Ito of course could do a Double Loop-Triple Loop which seems crazy difficult to me. Harding had a formidable loop. I guess that era just didn't call for triple-triple combinations involving a loop.
  12. RumbleFish

    RumbleFish New Member

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    It was also blatently two footed, but some judges neglected it and didn't deduct accordingly.

    It was certainly one of her better skates as a senior, but it was only one point better than Kim's FS with a fall on an under-rotated 3loop.
  13. gingercrush

    gingercrush New Member

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    Her loop isn't marked as underrotated.
  14. RumbleFish

    RumbleFish New Member

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    Perhaps she happens to be a chronic bad cook. :)
  15. miki88

    miki88 New Member

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    It's also interesting to see Kim taking a risk with the triple loop during the 2007-2008 season (something she never did or didn't really need to do again after that season). It speaks to the level of difficulty that both girls were aiming for that season.
  16. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    LOL what planet are you on. Her performance at Russian Nationals was much better.
  17. Amy03

    Amy03 New Member

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    (something is wrong, i can't quote right so i will just writte my name beside my answers)


    amy: you know i only bother replying when it isn't stupid, ridicouloes and ignorant quesion that are asked or stated, but i will make an exception this time!



    Overall all in their senior careers Yuna was more consistent and had more success. That's pretty much factual when you look at the results and protocols





    amy: Mao has won every title (worlds,4cc,gpf) several times yuna hasn't (with the exception of the olympics) beside that they both have a dosin of medals so i really don't see where you get the idea that there is a big difference in terms of succes!




    Ok, so one competition where Yuna wins isn't allowed to count for Yuna, but the only time Mao lands three triple axels in one competition (the same competition no less) is allowed to count :confused:



    amy: you should reread my post cause you seriously seem to have missed the point, let me repeat myself yuna ONLY has one title more then Mao, that in itself doesn't make her a better skater!



    Can you post a link to the protocols that show Mao landing two 3/3s and 3A because I cannot recall a single programme where this happened, unless you are counting that programme she did at nationals when she was 11 (maybe 12) and seriously under-rotated the 3/3s and 3A.



    amy: I am pretty sure you know how to find the protocols yourself, so maybe you should trouble yourself a bit and get it! but if you were a bit clever you wouldn't need it, looking at the score should confirm it, but if that doesn't make you content then go get the protocols!


    Well i've never seen Asada include multiple triple axels as well as several 3/3s in the same performance either you keep pretneding that she does, but that's simply not true. If it is, please post the link to the protocls that show this.



    amy: :rofl: you know one thing i realised after this whole discussion is that when people don't want to look at reality nothing will make them accept it!:kickass:

    so if it makes your ego feel better, just continue to pretend that Mao never did several 3A in the same program, she hasn't landed several 3-3 and a 3A in the same program... it just never happened, right :scream:

    (by the way does anyone know to quote right, something is wrong )
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2012
  18. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    Ever heard of Elaine Zayak?

    I would add this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKvX8U9WH9g Slutskaya, Kim, and Asada have never landed 7 triples in a world or olympic competition which is worth noting IMO.
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2012
  19. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    Good for her in 2007/2008, though! :cheer: That makes two seven triple programs.
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2012
  20. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    I do read your posts but you are either too stupid to make your poitns clearly or purposefully miss the points that are raised. Mao landed three triple axels in one competition just once, not multiple times, but you seem to think the fact she achieved it once means that she's to be worshipped in some way. This i do not understand whatsoever.



    :HA!: You are not providing the protocols because you can't find one to prove your point. You seem to have followed her career more closely than I have so I was genuinely asking you to provide links to the protocls that show her landed two 3/3s and a 3A in the same programme because I cannot remember her doing so. Repeating the same thing over and over again does not prove your point. Refusing to provide a link to protocols also makes me think you looked but did not find a single competition where this happened.

    Resorting to personal insults also shows that you cannot prove what you are asserting. Also the highlighted section above does not make any sense, looking at absolute scores does not show you what someone has landed in the comeptition. I have to ask myself if you even understand the first thing about figure skating.


    Perhaps English isn't your first language and you did not phrase your statement quite correctly. You said that she landed two 3As and several 3/3s in the same programme. That means two triple axels and more than one 3/3 combination. I think Mao has only done one or two programmes with two 3As and neither had even one 3/3 combination let alone more than one. I ask you to link to a protocl that shows this in order to prove your point, and I'm willing to concede that I am wrong if you can. The fact you tell me to look up the information myself, I think goes a long way to proving that I am right and you are, in fact, wrong.

    But by all means keep repeating the same factually incorrect things to see if you can make anyone else belive it.

    Mao has achieved some truly amazing technical feats, and trying to over state what she has done simply diminishes her already great acomplishments.
  21. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't seem to matter anyway. From the ways things are progressing, Asada will be gone in Round 9.

    I do wonder how this poll series would have ended up had Cohen and/or Suguri won a World championship.
  22. dawnie

    dawnie Active Member

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    If Suguri won 2006 Worlds and replaced Meissner on the poll, she would have been the first one voted off too.

    And, Amy... you need help girl. I'm sure you can find a reputable shrink somewhere in Tokyo.
  23. magnolia

    magnolia New Member

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    Round 9 will simply have to be about who your favorite skater is, because there's a convincing argument to be made for all four skaters to say who is the best:

    Michelle and Irina are stronger than Mao and Yuna for their longevity. Michelle had more artistry than Irina but Irina had more energy and speed.
    Michelle and Irina's programs lack the kind of difficulty and precision seen in Mao's and Yuna's CoP programs.
    Mao has skated the most technically challenging program in figure skating history and is the only one within the four to have a triple-axel.
    Yuna got the highest score in Olympic history.

    Really hard to tell!
  24. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Suguri might have outlasted Hughes (undeservedly IMO). Cohen in the poll would have been the real interesting thing to see.
  25. dawnie

    dawnie Active Member

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    Cohen's torch would have probably been snuffed either before or after Chen. I don't think she would have outlasted the final 4 of Slute, Kwan, Kim, and Asada.
  26. Plusdinfo

    Plusdinfo New Member

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    No disrespect to Mao, but her triple axels have never impressed me. They don't seem to get much height or distance, and I don't think her technical side has ever excited me. Rather, I liked some of her 2006-2008ish programs from an artistic standpoint, though I don't remember enjoying her 2010 Olympic programs.

    For me, there are no ladies who have surpassed Midori Ito or Tonya Harding in the "Wow!" realm of technical achievement.
  27. bartek

    bartek New Member

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    Well, Irina also had difficult CoP programs in her career with all the levels and high GOE. Her ability to skate very successfully under both system is remarkable.

    To Mao's advantages I would also add the fact that she is the most flexible skater out of those, and has the best line, posture and the best positions in spins and spirals.

    Irina and Michelle have also full set of triples (apart from axel of course), Mao doesn't do lutz and sal and Yu-Na doesn't do loop. However, if Irina and Michelle had competed under current version of CoP they would've been penalised for flutz as well as Asada and what would they have done? Irina could've got away with it because she actually took off from flat but Michelle definitely flutzed.
  28. magnolia

    magnolia New Member

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    Sure, Mao's triple-axel has achieved less height and distance than the ones achieved by Midori and Tonya, but I do believe Mao tops these two in the number of ratified triple-axels.

    Anyway, neither Midori and Tonya are on the poll, and here, you only have to compare Mao's existent triple-axel with the other threes' non-existent triple-axels.
  29. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    And If Yuna and Mao competed during the Michelle/Irina rivalry they would likely have been punished for not being well-rounded and leaving out triples. Who finished top five at worlds without at least attempting all triples up to the lutz during that time? And your comments about Michelle and Irina's lutzes are just your opinion. Also, there are a lot of skaters with similar take-offs like Suzuki, Nakano, Nagasu (just to name a few) who have been hit or miss with lutz/flip calls. Heck, Zhang and Wagner even got credit for their lutzes at 4CC this year. And who is to say that they wouldn't have cleaned up any minor edge issues had there been a need for it? Just like Mao and Yuna would probably be trying their least favorite triples if it was expected of them.
  30. dawnie

    dawnie Active Member

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    Kim would have been in the same situation Yamaguchi was in. Yamaguchi always attempted the salchow even though she rarely landed it. Kim has landed the loop a few times during her career though.

    Asada would have been way more successful under 6.0 since flutzes and underrotations were not so closely scrutinized.
  31. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Your Planet, it might be the jetlag ;)
    Seriously, at 2001 Worlds, she attempted two 3/3/2. It was not the case at 2001 Russian Nats, with one, cheated 3Lutz/3Loop.
    So, maybe we can consider her 2001 Russian Nats LP better, but not by much, IMO :)
  32. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

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    hasn't that been the way people have been voting all this time? Judging by the results, it seems so :shuffle:
  33. WindSpirit

    WindSpirit OmnipresentAdmeanistrator

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    Amy03 & antmanb, please take your squabbles to PM. Thank you.
  34. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Attempting a 2nd 3-3 means nothing since she missed it, so it ended up being a negative, not a postiive. In fact it was attempting and missing the 2nd 3/3 that lost her the gold (likely). At Russian Nationals she landed a harder 3/3, did not make a significant mistake like at Worlds, and did not rearrange her program and have other shaky moments in the 2nd half. No contest her Russian Nationals performance was better.

    As you said pretty much all her 3/3s were slightly cheated so no difference there. Sarah Hughes were even more cheated and still always counted as evidenced by her tech. scores which with her fugly, technically wrong, and small jumps she would never get without the 3/3s she did. That was 6.0 for you, for better or worse.
  35. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

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    And now I'm starting to wonder if we'll ever be able to see Yuna's triple loop in the future with these discussions about having all-round triple jumps.
  36. bartek

    bartek New Member

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    Half of Michelle's jumps in her glorious SOTBS winning program were underrotated including her triple-triple combination.

    :rofl: Even if we consider the fact that those two triple-triples were not the best quality, the performance itself slays technically everyhting Michelle did in her whole career. As do 2005 Worlds even with the third triple loop...
  37. Jarrett

    Jarrett Well-Known Member

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    I agree, all of Michelle's competition wins were a complete farse! :violin:
  38. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    Really? If it Irina's RN LP in 2001 slays Kwan so easily then how come one step-out at worlds in the same routine was enough to make 7 judges go for Kwan? You can spout on and on, but it's just speculation on your part.

    And in 2005, maybe you should watch again. In addition to violating the Zayak rule :duh:, Slutskaya's final combo spin was a mess and she forget her footwork sequence midway down the rink and stumbled awkwardly. Oh, and there was also her short program. Yes, it was a great competition for Irina, but as usual her lack of attention to detail and not finishing off her elements left a "sloppy image" to the end of her program as Peggy would say.

    I like Slutskaya. I'm not a fan, but I respect her competitive spirit, her willingness to take risk, and the difficulty in many of her elements. I wanted her to win the 2006 OGM. But I personally don't think she ever skated a long program that could top Kwan at her best. In the long program, presentation had slightly more emphasis and was the tie breaker. Michelle was able to make her programs look seamless, well-balanced, and had an understanding of presentation that Irina just never developed.
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2012
  39. bartek

    bartek New Member

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    I did not say it slays Michelle's performance overall, I said it slays it technically. Under 6.0 stepping up and messing up the whole combination the way Irina did, it was penalised quite severely. Yet, the judges still awarded Irina higher marks for technical merit than Michelle who won on the strength of her presentation marks. If performance with the big mistake on a combination is given higher marks for technical merit, then flawless performance from 2001 Nats surely slays Kwan's SOTBS technically.

    I wouldn't ever call Irina's 2005 Worlds free skate sloppy. Her 2001 Worlds FS definitely can be called sloppy, I agree, but not her winning skate from 2005 Worlds. Personally, I think this performance, apart from being extraordinary technically EVEN WITH the third triple loop, is one of the most moving and emotional performance in skating history. After she'd been through the previous season, she pulled off seven triples (the third triple loop is still triple) with the most difficult triple-triple done by a lady ever in competition and her joy of skating was simply unmatched.

    Also, it's not just my opinion that Michelle flutzed. You can go to youtube, pick up the first Michelle's performance you can think of, watch the slow-motion for the lutz and see it yourself. She just couldn't stay on the outside edge and always took off from either shallow inside edge or flat. The thing with flutzing, it's not like in my opinion she flutzed and you reckon she did not. It's plain and simple that she changed her edge just before taking off and everyone can see that.
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2012
  40. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    In fairness it seems bartek is ONLY talking about the technical side, and Irina even with her mistakes did still score higher than Michelle on the technical marks (slightly) in the LP at the 2001 Worlds. Granted that makes bartek's arguments faulty to begin with as figure skating is not just about the technical side. As bartek is a bigtime Miki Ando backer you can already tell the technical side is all that would be important to this poster though. :lol:


    In fairness I can sort of see the point of a few people. I think Michelle Kwan is still excellent technically, one of the best in the World, and that combined with her World best artistry and great competitive spirit and reputation accumulated over the years (I dont even mind skaters getting reputation marks as IMO they all earn that reputation) resulted in her historic career with 5 World titles, 9 World medals, 9 U.S titles, and all her other achievements. However when you break it down closer if results were determined only by technical marks Michelle would have won only 1 of her 5 Worlds:

    1996- Would have won.

    1997- Would have been 3rd in the LP behind Tara and Irina, 5th in the short behind Czako, and in fact 4th overall it appears.

    1998- Would have been 3rd in the LP behind Irina and Maria, and probably 2nd to Irina overall even with Irina missing her combination and having a fall in the LP as well.

    2000- Would have been 2nd in the LP behind Irina (I disagreed as Irina had only 6 triples, a big pop open, no triple-triple try, and her 2nd triple lutz might have been 2 footed, while Michelle had a spectacular clear 7 triple with a triple-triple program, but Irina did slightly win the tech. score by the judges).

    2001- Would have been 2nd to Irina.

    2003- Would have been 2nd to Sokolova (I disagree slightly with the judges here too as Sokolova's non jump tech. elements are pretty average, and dont compare to Slutskaya's or Kwan's, but in the judges eyes she won the tech. mark).

    As for some of her other World medals:

    1999- Would have been 4th behind Butyrskaya, Soldatova, and Malinina in the LP. Not sure of her SP placing, but probably down in about 8th.

    2004- Would have been 3rd in LP behind Arakawa and Ando and out of medals overall.


    So while that is in a way irrelevant as her artistic marks combined with the (most of the time) still very strong technical marks carried her to deserved finishes on each occasion, I can see the point how technically she was not as strong relatively speaking to the greatest.

    Someone like Yu Na Kim in each GP final, Worlds, or Olympics, she won, did convincingly win both the combined technical and artistic mark.