Figure Skating Champions SURVIVOR: Ladies ROUND 7

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by SamuraiK, Jun 26, 2012.

Who is the weakest link among these past champions

Poll closed Jul 1, 2012.
  1. Lu Chen

    79 vote(s)
    27.6%
  2. Michelle Kwan

    18 vote(s)
    6.3%
  3. Irina Slutskaya

    25 vote(s)
    8.7%
  4. Shizuka Arakawa

    116 vote(s)
    40.6%
  5. Mao Asada

    35 vote(s)
    12.2%
  6. Yuna Kim

    13 vote(s)
    4.5%
  1. dawnie

    dawnie Active Member

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    Didn't Trenary win figures at the World Championships she won? And either placed 1st or 2nd at them in 1989?
     
  2. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Yes but against weak figures fields. She wasnt even ever beating Manley and Witt in figures, let alone the great figures skaters like Thomas and Ivanova. Leistner who didnt place that well in figures in her own era was the winner of figures (over Trenary) at the 89 Worlds.
     
  3. Plusdinfo

    Plusdinfo Member

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    I voted for Irina Slutskaya due to the fact that half of the scoring in skating is based on presentation. I think Slutskaya tended to have some of the worst "presentation" skills (especially musical interpretation) of any top 3-6 skater in memory. Thank you for the assessment quoted below and even more for the links. I greatly enjoyed the Keri Lotion exhibition and the Schindler's List performance, but the others weren't that great!! Memory makes me think that her 2005 Worlds LP was one of the only times I liked one of her competitive programs.

     
  4. flipforsynchro

    flipforsynchro New Member

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    At the Olympics, Mao tripped right before she was taking off for that 3T, so that's not exactly a great example to use.
    http://youtu.be/5y5mcxHe9Qc?t=3m25s
     
  5. gingercrush

    gingercrush New Member

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    Yep but unlike any other lady here she could pull off a Triple Axel and in combination and with how bad her Triple Toe is according to you (certainly agree it isn't a strong jump for her). She was still able to get it ratified under the harsher code and in combination with a Triple Flip and could also do a Double Axel-Triple Toe.

    And by your silly analogy Kim should be out of contention too because she barely ever pulled off a Triple Loop.
     
  6. t.mann

    t.mann New Member

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    I am curious about how the result of of the ROUND 9(maybe Irina vs Mao match) will turn out.
    While I think Mao is stronger than Irina, many other users seem to think otherwise.
    Would Irina (who had a total of about 8 ratified 3-3s in her long career) be able to beat Mao with three 3As(at the Olympics)?
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2012
  7. magnolia

    magnolia New Member

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    I don't think it's fair to compare jumps before and after CoP; before CoP, lip/flutz/pre-rotation/under-rotation were non-issues.

    As for Mao not having a salchow and toe loop, that is ridiculous. She has always had those and the dubious one was the lutz, which she has only managed to get ratified a few times post-CoP.

    The great thing about Mao is that she is continuing to improve herself:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBKXCZzB_S8
     
  8. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Irina got stronger as her career went on, while Mao burst on the scene and began going downhill after her first World title with some brief rises back up, then regressing again. So based on that I will vote Mao off before Irina in round 9.

    Rochette nearly beat Mao in Vancouver, and both had mistakes. Irina certainly would have had the chance to do so, and wouldnt have had to skate perfectly either. A young Mao beat Irina, but Mao lost many times through her career to Miki Ando who Irina could beat in her sleep.
     
  9. magnolia

    magnolia New Member

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    Mao beat Irina at Grand Prix in Olympic year.

    Mao's career has not been at all smooth, but then, whose career has been? There is not one skater on the list who has done consistently well. Inconsistency is the norm, not the exception. (I guess if consistency is the criteria, I would say Michelle Kwan, but even she has her mental stumbles most unfortunately at Olympics.)
     
  10. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    True, I just think Irina's amazing longevity as a top skater gives her the edge on Mao who is already fizzling out past her teenage years. Especialy since Mao was never able to truly be a dominant skater like Kim was for 2 seasons to compensate. In 2005-2006 was she was denied the chance by the age rule, in 2006-2007 she was challenged and beaten more than once by both Kim and Ando, in 2007-2008 was challenged by Kim and barely won Worlds over Kostner and Kim.
     
  11. magnolia

    magnolia New Member

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    All the skaters you mention above have been beaten by the others, Yuna by Mao, Miki and Caro (I think), Miki by Mao, Yuna and Caro, and Caro by Mao, Miki and Yuna. So that in itself doesn't mean anything.

    I have not once voted (maybe I will next time), but I think that I would take into consideration things like:

    1. Longevity of career
    This should favor Irina, Michelle Kwan, Mao

    2. Whether or not all the jumps were there with no wrong edge or rotation issues
    This criteria should actually have favored Miki, if anything. Miki should really get more recognition for being the jumper that she is.

    3. Artistry
    This in my eyes should favor Mao absolutely and least favorably, Irina. I have never found her particularly enjoyable as a performer.

    4. Ability to do big tricks such as 3-3 and triple-axels
    This should favor Yuna as well as Mao.

    5. Off-ice behavior
    I think Michelle Kwan has been quite impeccable in that regard. I, being a fan of Mao, find her off-ice behavior inspiring.
     
    kwanette and (deleted member) like this.
  12. RumbleFish

    RumbleFish New Member

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    I must say I was surprised to see how great Miss Asada's big jumps are upon further research. Check out the link below. :p

    Mao Asada Triple Axel - Double Toe Loop Combination

    Please, save your uber war stuff until you get there. All I'm saying here is Lu Chen happens to be much stronger champion than Miss Asada. Unlike you know who, she performed memorable programs and acheived most of her results without receiving gifts.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2012
  13. RumbleFish

    RumbleFish New Member

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    This isn't true. There were mandatory deductions put in place for cheated jumps during 6.0 era.

    :lol: I do remeber her saying around 06/07 season that the reason she never does 3S is because points were too low.
     
  14. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    The only one to beat Yu Na with some regularity is Mao. Miki beat her only twice ever, four years apart. Kostner beat her only once ever. Mao has lost to all those other many times over.

    Just like the only ones to beat Kwan with any regularity ever are Slutskaya and Lipinski. Nobody else. She was that dominant and unbeatable, but of course for even a much longer time than Yu Na.
     
  15. gingercrush

    gingercrush New Member

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    Are you purposely thick? No judging is done at a later date with weird picture to picture comparisons by an opinionated turd. That doesn't mean jack. Nor can those photos show anything unless every single jump that was ratified also get their own photo comparisons.

    You are already ubering idiot. Oh Mao should be out because she doesn't do Triple Toe and Triple Salchow and completely dismiss the few times Kim ever did a Triple Loop. I don't possibly see how Lu Chen is a stronger champion than Mao Asada. But you are entitled to your opinion. Also I can recall several memorable programs from Mao.
     
  16. miki88

    miki88 New Member

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    I don't feel Irina's artistry is much better than Ando. She always appeared awkward to me and while she was athletic, I never found her jumps as appealing as Kwan's. So I voted for her.
     
    kwanette and (deleted member) like this.
  17. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    You're digusted because you made a false statement (that Mao has wonderful and consistent triple salchows and toe-loops and gets positive GOEs on them) and I called you on it with proof :confused:

    For the record: I believe that Mao does "have" both the triple toe-loop and the salchow, but I think they are her weakest triple jumps. Clearly her money jumps are the loop and flip, and I feel sad that the IJS rules and scrutiny have basically put an end to skaters using 3Lp as the back half of combinations because I think we've been screwed out of some truly great combos from both Mao and Miki. I actually think Mao's triple (f)lutz is also a money jump for her - despite the edge change she must have a great % consistency on it and the only times she's struggled was when she tried to fix the edge and sometimes ended up popping it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2012
  18. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    I am tempted to make future voting decisions based on the number and behavior of each skaters' ubers. I think this should leave Slutskaya for last.

    As it is, I voted for Arakawa, who was lovely but with blah programs and lots of inconsistency. I will certainly not vote Lulu out, her Last Emperor LP is one of my favorite programs ever and she gets extra points for coming from a country that didn't have that much of a skating tradition at the time.
     
  19. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

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    I don't know how anyone could vote for Irina over Mao. Mao is next for me. She has two world championship titles (same as Irina), olympic silver (same as Irina) and a world silver while Irina has a 2nd Olympic medal (bronze) and (I think) 3 more world medals and between 2000-2006 (except for the years she had heart illness) would always finish on the podium. And her 2005 long program was a tear jerker for sure and I was never even a fan!

    Mao is just all over the map and yeah her triple axle was neat-o but she never had any life in her eyes when she skated and always looked bored IMO. Irina was much more exciting to watch.

    I do agree with others that she was really screwed due to the age rule because I do think her peak was 2006 and really could have won the Olympics had she been able to go.Unfortunately what we think "could have happened" does not count for anything because well...it didn't happen.
     
  20. miki88

    miki88 New Member

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    The only thing I found exciting about Irina was her speed, but she didn't really move effortlessly over the ice as the other skaters on the list did. Irina has a better competitive record than Mao but Mao was a more elegant and polished skater imo.
     
  21. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

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    A good criterion. Had we used it from the beginning, Sarah Hughes would still be in..:p
     
  22. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

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    i agree what that. She was a very clunky skater. but for me anyway, she was more fun to watch than Mao. Mao has like no on ice personality IMO. very elegant yes but seemed to be all business.
     
  23. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Mao was an elegant skater and lovely to watch at times, and did some very difficult jumps. She had all the pieces, but as her career went on they didnt come together as well as they could, and her consistency was a big problem. IMO she will go down as an underachiever. She had the potential to be the best skater ever perhaps.
     
  24. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    For me, while I agree Irina was awkward and unfinished, she did at least bring speed and energy to some of her programs. I thought her Culture sp from 2000/2001 was PERFECT for her. The exotic "circusy" music worked with her body movements. When she basically did the same elements to the muzak version of a Schubert piece the next season it didn't work it all IMO (despite the 6.0 she was gifted at worlds that year). With Miki, even though she was more controlled, I just never felt anything from her.
     
  25. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    I agree. I suppose I should save this argument for later, but I do agree with you. In terms of aesthetics, Irina is at the bottom of the list of remaining skaters. Her lines were ugly, her posture was bad, her extension and stretch were terrible, her programs were not my cuppa...all in all, just not the kind of skating I like. Her technical ability was great but IMO her jumps were kinda ugly. Irina got good speed and good height on her jumps but she telegraphed the hell outta her take offs and her landings left a lot to be desired in terms of riding edge and checked landing position.

    When Mao was younger she was incredible. A ton of speed going into and coming out of her jumps, pretty air position, nice check on the landing...she was incredible. That's not the case anymore in terms of her jumps which don't carry as much speed and definitely lack the fast riding edge she used to have. Aesthetically, however, she is one of the most exquisite skaters I've ever seen in terms of her posture, line, extension, flow across the ice and gracefulness. She just floats...it's a quality I've never seen before and it's beautiful.

    I've already said Irina comes in 2nd on this poll for me behind Michelle. Despite how unappealing her skating is to me, in terms of career accomplishments, longevity and competitiveness, she gets high marks. I adore Mao but her competitive record (thus far) can't compare. Ability is great but what you're able to accomplish with it is what matters. I think if Mao were not struggling the way she has been for the past two season, there would be a much stronger case for her. I think it's undeniable that Mao is a special kind of skater...but I do think given her abilities she's a bit of an underachiever as of right now.
     
  26. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Mao's career began going downhill when she went to Tarasova who isnt the coach or choreographer she used to be. She has never fully gotten on track since then, other than maybe for a blip winter of 2010.
     
  27. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    Tarasova ran her into the ground IMO. Prior to going to her, Mao was a different skater. I think the tunnel-vision focus on the 3A is what destroyed her. The rest of her beautiful skating fell away and her programs became a showcase for that one jump. They stopped trying to fix the lutz for two whole seasons; imagine how much farther along she would be with the correct technique if they hadn't pulled that jump from her programs...

    TAT did wonderful exhibition programs for Mao but aside from that, I think going to her as a full-time coach was a terrible mistake that she's still paying for today.
     
  28. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    ITA on all. She has lost alot of her special qualities as an artist, her programs were nowhere near her artistic potential, and she began losing many of her other triples which were mostly solid and very strong pre Tarasova, which made the triple axel not just a groundbreaker but a neccessity to even have enough difficulty left.
     
  29. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    Lori has been able to reverse some of the damage in terms of bringing Mao back into her element artistically. Her Libestraum program is a borderline masterpiece IMO and her Jupiter program leaves me speechless.

    Mao is slowly finding her way back...but she was a completely different and much less enjoyable skater under Tarasova...IMO anyway.:shuffle:
     
  30. bartek

    bartek New Member

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    Irina didn't move efortlessly on the ice? :lol: At times, she had almost the same outstanding speed as Kostner had with only difference that Irina fully controlled her moves and it actually was totally efortless. Just with two or three strokes she could gain enough speed to skate through the whole ice rink in her one foot footwork and didn't lose the speed at all at the end. Irina has one of the best skating skills ever in ladies' skating. One of the fastest skater ever (comparable with Caro and Fumie at their best) with deep edges and total control. Have you ever seen her fall while doing crossovers or on the approach to the jump? I remember the times when Caro had so much super speed that she couldn't perfectly control it and Irina always, even when younger and sloppy, controled her powerful skating.