Figure Skating Champions SURVIVOR: Ladies ROUND 7

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by SamuraiK, Jun 26, 2012.

Who is the weakest link among these past champions

Poll closed Jul 1, 2012.
  1. Lu Chen

    79 vote(s)
    27.6%
  2. Michelle Kwan

    18 vote(s)
    6.3%
  3. Irina Slutskaya

    25 vote(s)
    8.7%
  4. Shizuka Arakawa

    116 vote(s)
    40.6%
  5. Mao Asada

    35 vote(s)
    12.2%
  6. Yuna Kim

    13 vote(s)
    4.5%
  1. dawnie

    dawnie Active Member

    362
    58
    28
    :lol:
    Are you being sarcastic or do you really believe the toe and especially the salchow are very reliable jumps for her? Everyone knows the flip and loop have been her only reliable jumps for years.
     
  2. Amy03

    Amy03 Member

    252
    24
    18
    well don't know which competition you have watched, but the once i have rewatched at least a hundred times they certainly looked beautifully attempted and landed! and her getting credit for it and positive goe also shows that the technical judge thinks and sees the same as i do!
     
  3. bartek

    bartek New Member

    241
    16
    0
    Why didn't you use both Europeans and 4CC? To make sure Kwan would beat Slutskaya? If you gave points to Irina for her seven european golds she would win.
     
  4. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    13,704
    787
    113
    I am a much bigger fan of Slutskaya than Kwan. I just posted the biggest 3 events as a starting point, I havent figured out yet how I would point the other events. Anyway it is my own opinion, it would be fun if others made their own point system.

    Four Continents in the Kwan era is complex though since almost none of the top skaters ever competed there, as the fact Kwan active from 1999-2005 never competing there reflects.
     
  5. bartek

    bartek New Member

    241
    16
    0
    Ok, I see but I would say that Europeans are much more prestigious and important for skaters than GPF. Of course 4CC haven't always been as important as they are now but Europeans have very long tradition and have always been considered as the third most important event after Olympics and Worlds. I noticed that a lot of european male skaters care for Europeans a lot and tell about hat in their interviews, e.g. Plushenko, Joubert, Amodio and Verner.
     
  6. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    13,704
    787
    113
    I agree about the importance of Europeans, I am just not sure how to put into proper perspective since non Europeans dont get to compete there. I will probably redo my totals giving the same value to Europeans and Four Continents though, and giving some value to the grand prix events and Goodwill Games. It seems Slutskaya would come out ahead in that case. For the skaters who chose not to compete at Four Continents, I guess it was their choice.
     
  7. FunnyBut

    FunnyBut Well-Known Member

    4,401
    758
    113
    I think your numbers are quite fair, an Olympics should be weighted more heavily Worlds, everyone trains in a 4 year cycle, trying to peak at the Olympics.

    The only skaters that sort of get 'shorted' are the ones who win both Olympics Worlds early in life, specifcally Tara and Yuna. Life changes once the greatest goals are met, who knows what other medals they might have earned had they still been hungry and singularily focused toward skating competition.
     
  8. FunnyBut

    FunnyBut Well-Known Member

    4,401
    758
    113
    :lol: What kind of competition did Irina have at Euros? Really only Maria B., and only for about three seasons. Perhaps we should count Senior Bs too, and then Carolina would have everyone else beat. A competition is only as good as its competitors. Kwan had it far tougher at her own Nationals, she faced Sasha, Sara, Tara, Nicole B, Kimmie, all at one time legitamate contenders for a World or Olympic gold medal. I'd say Miki and Mao had it tougher at Japanese Nats than Irina at most Europeans. Yeah, for dance, pairs and men Euros was a strong competition, for Ladies, not nearly so much.
     
  9. bartek

    bartek New Member

    241
    16
    0
    I agree that it's more diffciult to win a medal at Japan Nationals than gold at Europeans but still Irina's longevity and winning those gold medals seven times is very impressive and admirable. I wouldn't say it was easier for Irina to win Europeans than for Michelle to win US Nats in 00s. After 2002 Olympics the only competition for Michelle was Sasha and as much as I adore her she couldn't put it together at Nationals and made it easier for Michelle to win.
     
  10. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

    4,366
    916
    113
    Voted for Lulu, but feel it's close between her and Shiz.
     
  11. DaiKozOda

    DaiKozOda Active Member

    545
    65
    28
     
  12. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

    2,786
    370
    83
    Lu Chen has a higher medal count and through most of her career was a stronger competitor than Arakawa IMO. I voted for Shizzle.
     
  13. Cheylana

    Cheylana Well-Known Member

    4,982
    967
    113
    I also voted for Shizuka (same as last round).
     
  14. casken

    casken Well-Known Member

    6,774
    1,081
    113
    Unpopular opinion, but this is the point where I would kick out Slutskaya.

    Slutskaya had about one season where she was skating at her full potential, which was the season of her comeback in late 99-2000. She improved every aspect of her skating and was at her absolute peak. Her 99 and 2000 sps are her best ever and I don't think I've ever seen her move with more power, freedom, elegance, and feeling as this section of this exhibition program from the 2000 season. or this Schindler's List exhibition exhibition from around the same time. That would have been a way better program for the Olympics than the heavy and ponderous Tosca program.

    And of course, her best competitive skate was the 2000 GPF. Obviously the triple/triples are a huge part, but she's never skated a competitive program with that much lightness and ease ever again. Compare this to her "Don Quixote" skates from the next season and their is no comparison.

    Then, once she got back to the top, it was back to the old Slutskaya; stiff upper body, stiff arms, choreography disconnected from the music, stalked jumps, heavy landed lutz/flip jumps, unfinished spins, etc... Total regression.

    Chen and Arakawa at least improved the quality of their skating, style, and programs throughout their career.
     
    kwanette and (deleted member) like this.
  15. bartek

    bartek New Member

    241
    16
    0
    In my opinion Slutskaya's peak was when she came back after her heart illness.

    Heavy landed lutz/flip? Have you ever seen her lutz or flip? They are gorgeous! She got about twice the height Michelle had. Unfinished spins? So how would you describe Michelle's spins? Feeble imitation of spins?

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUGoNw8lXy8&t=1m20s
    Is this triple flip heavy landed? Huge height and good flow out of the jump. I see nothing bad in this jump.

    She also didn't have any problematic jump like most of current skaters have, e.g. loop for Yu-Na. She had a complete set of all triples (without triple axel of course) and always put them all in her programs. Not to mention her difficult entrance to triple loop which she popularised and triple-triples with loop at the end.

    Apart from being one of the best jumpers in history, Slutskaya probably ranks in the top ten of the best spinners ever too. Technically she was a whole package. Huge jumps, great spins, speed, deep edges in spirals (of course Dick and Peggy never even mentioned her edges and speed in spirals, only focusing on the extention)...

    Even when CoP came into the scene she easily adjusted and Dick Button once noticed that when most of the skaters lost speed and centering when they got into difficult variations, Slutskaya not only didn't lose speed but actually gained it and stayed in one spot on the ice. Her biellman and donut were first rate. She didn't have to drop her leg unaesthetically like most of skaters do. Her camel was also great and she got big height on her flying spins. Everything about her spins was superior to Kwan apart from sit spin. Her layback position was also very good with nice arch in the back and good leg position. Michelle had terrible back position and low free leg.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUGoNw8lXy8&t=3m53s an example of her great signature double biellman spin
     
  16. ali_dorate

    ali_dorate Active Member

    269
    42
    28
    Shizuka is a typical late bloomer.
    Although she had been called "a gifted girl" when she was a novice, she could not deliver an eye-catching performance in international competitions after her senior debut.

    But when you see the competitive results of the last three years of her career as an amateur athlete, she got;
    1 Gold at Olympics
    1 Gold at World Championships
    1 Silver at GPF
    1 Bronze at GPF.

    This is a great accomplishment.
    Her winning at 2006 Winter Olympics was not only the first gold medal in Asian countries in figure skating history, but was a only "one" Gold medal that entire Japanese national Olympic team could get at 2006 Olympics, and that happed at the last moment of that Olympic period! You can't imagine how deeply Japanese people were moved and exited.

    I call the skater who can deliver the performance when it really counts a strong skater. Shizuka is definitely one of the strongest skaters.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2012
  17. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

    2,103
    135
    63
    ^ Yeah, unfortunately, Shizuka wasn't consistent enough to deliver those performances when it always counted. She screwed up at Worlds more than half the time she was there and placed abysmally in Nagano and 1998 Worlds and had a dry spell on the World scene for nearly 4 years after that.

    Shiz has some nice aspects to her skating, but IMO it is her time to go.
     
  18. victoriaheidi

    victoriaheidi New Member

    1,784
    79
    0
    Shizuka's going to go, huh? :(

    I voted Mao.
     
  19. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

    11,554
    1,395
    113
    EYS.
     
  20. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

    3,770
    1,683
    113
    Worlds 2012 the 3S was under-rotated and got negative GOE, no 3T attempted.

    Worlds 2011 Popped the salchow to a 1S and had the 3T downgraded (<<).

    Worlds 2010 She landed the 3T with positive GOE but did not attempt a salchow.

    2010 Olympics popped the toe-loop to a 1T and did not attempt a salchow.

    I don't think she included a salchow for at least a couple of seasons prior to the Olympics so i'm just not seeing salchow and toe-loop as being these wonderful jumps that Mao did/does.
     
  21. sk8ingcoach

    sk8ingcoach Active Member

    460
    36
    28
    Cmon people... Vote for Chen Lu. Shizuka deserves to be ahead of her
     
  22. Amy03

    Amy03 Member

    252
    24
    18
    i really am disgusted by how you take 2012 worlds as eksemple cause that performance was a not how mao has been performing during the whole season... and the same goes for your eksempel from the olympics 2010, after that performance Mao herself said that, she was shocked to make a mistake on the toe cause it's usuelly a very easy jump for her(her foot got stuck in the ice if you watch it in slowmo). and in the 2010 worlds Mao didn't put a salcow in her jump arsenal because she was already doing TWO 3A so no space for the salcow... the year after(2011) when she removed one 3A she suddenly got space for other tripple and the she put back the salcow and lutz.. and the toe has always been in mao's jump arsenal, and she is even doing it in combination 2A-3T in her free, and that combo she has been doing for two seasons now! and as a single 3T she has always had it in her free! so yes she had been doing and still does all kind of jumps, that was her whole intention with her new jump layout from the beginning!
     
  23. RumbleFish

    RumbleFish New Member

    1,004
    77
    0
    It sure sounds like Miss Asada having trouble landing 3S and 3T, regardless what you are trying to say.

    This is just another reason why she should be voted out.
    All the ladies, even ones that got voted out, had no problem landing 3T and 3S except Miss Asada.
     
  24. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

    3,966
    155
    63
    And Lipinski deserved to be ahead of both :shuffle:
     
  25. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

    1,854
    370
    83
    Yeah I really don't get the reason for Lipinski getting the boot before Mao, Lulu, and Shiz. But I guess its in the past!
     
  26. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    13,704
    787
    113
    I do agree with Tara going before Mao. Mao was just as precocious and probably would have duplicated Tara's feat as a 15 year old World and Olympic Champion in 2010 if the age rule Tara didnt have to deal with allowed it. Mao at the same age was a more elegant and artistic skater, and she had some triple-triples up her sleeve (a triple lutz-triple loop for instance) too plus the triple axel. Mao at 14-15 went a combined 5-1 vs Arakawa, Slutskaya, Cohen, the top 3 skaters in the World besides herself at the time. Tara at 14-15 went a combined 7-5 vs Kwan and a badly slumping Slutskaya. Mao overall had a longer career with more achievements, Tara didnt even win a regular grand prix event remember. IMO Mao > Tara >>> Chen and Arakawa.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2012
  27. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

    26,863
    4,042
    113
    ITA. Tara should have been around a lot longer, and I am not even her fan (though I did like her).
     
  28. FunnyBut

    FunnyBut Well-Known Member

    4,401
    758
    113
    I agree Mao had the worst timing. She was barely too young for the Torino Olympics, and she had a decent chance of beating Shizuka, Sasha and Irina's performances there. She also would have gone in with much less pressure than Sasha and Irina, knowing she likely have at least one more Olympics given her age.

    Moreover, she grew up at a time when the 3Axel was king, the flutz as well as somewhat under-rotated 3-3 were largely forgiven. By the time she was competing Senior Worlds 3A was just another triple, and there was great scrutiny on the flutz and underrotations. Not that these are unfair requirments, but they were changes that greatly benefited her biggest rival, YuNa, and they were instigated after Mao became a Senior. Kwan had already won a pile of medals before COP changed the rules on her. Trenary sneaked in a WGM before figures were taken away and her competitors' triples arsenal overwhelmed her. Mao spent almost her entire senior career with the rules changed against her strengths.
     
  29. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    13,704
    787
    113
    Although she was never going to be a dominant or legendary champion, I think Trenary is another one who had bad timing. She came in during the figures wait your turn era and had to wait for Witt, Thomas, and Manley to retire to have a real chance, had to compete with the greatest jumper ever Midori Ito when figures were being phased out, and had figures being phased out when she had good jump content for the figures era but was now having to compete with American girls like Yamaguchi, Harding, even Kerrigan who had a full set of triple pretty much, and faced with the impossible task of learning several new triples late in her career. Then again her 1990 World title with a botched short program was lucky enough, so it evens out I guess.
     
    flutzilla1 and (deleted member) like this.
  30. FunnyBut

    FunnyBut Well-Known Member

    4,401
    758
    113
    Hmm, I think you could look at Trenary either way. I kinda thought she couldn't win under either the old rules (not so great at figures) or the new ones (not so prolific with triples).:lol: But I agree she got caught in the middle of a big shift, and probably would have fared better had the rules never changed.

    I think after this game is over, we'll need Ladies' Survivor, The PRE-quel! :lol: That is, the previous 12 greatest World/Olympic champions, ending with the 1994 WGM, Yuka Sato. Witt! Thomas! Sumners! Baiul! Yamaguichi! Ito!:watch: