Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by SamuraiK, Jun 26, 2012.
Cmon people... Vote for Chen Lu. Shizuka deserves to be ahead of her
i really am disgusted by how you take 2012 worlds as eksemple cause that performance was a not how mao has been performing during the whole season... and the same goes for your eksempel from the olympics 2010, after that performance Mao herself said that, she was shocked to make a mistake on the toe cause it's usuelly a very easy jump for her(her foot got stuck in the ice if you watch it in slowmo). and in the 2010 worlds Mao didn't put a salcow in her jump arsenal because she was already doing TWO 3A so no space for the salcow... the year after(2011) when she removed one 3A she suddenly got space for other tripple and the she put back the salcow and lutz.. and the toe has always been in mao's jump arsenal, and she is even doing it in combination 2A-3T in her free, and that combo she has been doing for two seasons now! and as a single 3T she has always had it in her free! so yes she had been doing and still does all kind of jumps, that was her whole intention with her new jump layout from the beginning!
It sure sounds like Miss Asada having trouble landing 3S and 3T, regardless what you are trying to say.
This is just another reason why she should be voted out.
All the ladies, even ones that got voted out, had no problem landing 3T and 3S except Miss Asada.
And Lipinski deserved to be ahead of both
Yeah I really don't get the reason for Lipinski getting the boot before Mao, Lulu, and Shiz. But I guess its in the past!
I do agree with Tara going before Mao. Mao was just as precocious and probably would have duplicated Tara's feat as a 15 year old World and Olympic Champion in 2010 if the age rule Tara didnt have to deal with allowed it. Mao at the same age was a more elegant and artistic skater, and she had some triple-triples up her sleeve (a triple lutz-triple loop for instance) too plus the triple axel. Mao at 14-15 went a combined 5-1 vs Arakawa, Slutskaya, Cohen, the top 3 skaters in the World besides herself at the time. Tara at 14-15 went a combined 7-5 vs Kwan and a badly slumping Slutskaya. Mao overall had a longer career with more achievements, Tara didnt even win a regular grand prix event remember. IMO Mao > Tara >>> Chen and Arakawa.
ITA. Tara should have been around a lot longer, and I am not even her fan (though I did like her).
I agree Mao had the worst timing. She was barely too young for the Torino Olympics, and she had a decent chance of beating Shizuka, Sasha and Irina's performances there. She also would have gone in with much less pressure than Sasha and Irina, knowing she likely have at least one more Olympics given her age.
Moreover, she grew up at a time when the 3Axel was king, the flutz as well as somewhat under-rotated 3-3 were largely forgiven. By the time she was competing Senior Worlds 3A was just another triple, and there was great scrutiny on the flutz and underrotations. Not that these are unfair requirments, but they were changes that greatly benefited her biggest rival, YuNa, and they were instigated after Mao became a Senior. Kwan had already won a pile of medals before COP changed the rules on her. Trenary sneaked in a WGM before figures were taken away and her competitors' triples arsenal overwhelmed her. Mao spent almost her entire senior career with the rules changed against her strengths.
Although she was never going to be a dominant or legendary champion, I think Trenary is another one who had bad timing. She came in during the figures wait your turn era and had to wait for Witt, Thomas, and Manley to retire to have a real chance, had to compete with the greatest jumper ever Midori Ito when figures were being phased out, and had figures being phased out when she had good jump content for the figures era but was now having to compete with American girls like Yamaguchi, Harding, even Kerrigan who had a full set of triple pretty much, and faced with the impossible task of learning several new triples late in her career. Then again her 1990 World title with a botched short program was lucky enough, so it evens out I guess.
Hmm, I think you could look at Trenary either way. I kinda thought she couldn't win under either the old rules (not so great at figures) or the new ones (not so prolific with triples). But I agree she got caught in the middle of a big shift, and probably would have fared better had the rules never changed.
I think after this game is over, we'll need Ladies' Survivor, The PRE-quel! That is, the previous 12 greatest World/Olympic champions, ending with the 1994 WGM, Yuka Sato. Witt! Thomas! Sumners! Baiul! Yamaguichi! Ito!
Didn't Trenary win figures at the World Championships she won? And either placed 1st or 2nd at them in 1989?
Yes but against weak figures fields. She wasnt even ever beating Manley and Witt in figures, let alone the great figures skaters like Thomas and Ivanova. Leistner who didnt place that well in figures in her own era was the winner of figures (over Trenary) at the 89 Worlds.
I voted for Irina Slutskaya due to the fact that half of the scoring in skating is based on presentation. I think Slutskaya tended to have some of the worst "presentation" skills (especially musical interpretation) of any top 3-6 skater in memory. Thank you for the assessment quoted below and even more for the links. I greatly enjoyed the Keri Lotion exhibition and the Schindler's List performance, but the others weren't that great!! Memory makes me think that her 2005 Worlds LP was one of the only times I liked one of her competitive programs.
At the Olympics, Mao tripped right before she was taking off for that 3T, so that's not exactly a great example to use.
Yep but unlike any other lady here she could pull off a Triple Axel and in combination and with how bad her Triple Toe is according to you (certainly agree it isn't a strong jump for her). She was still able to get it ratified under the harsher code and in combination with a Triple Flip and could also do a Double Axel-Triple Toe.
And by your silly analogy Kim should be out of contention too because she barely ever pulled off a Triple Loop.
I am curious about how the result of of the ROUND 9(maybe Irina vs Mao match) will turn out.
While I think Mao is stronger than Irina, many other users seem to think otherwise.
Would Irina (who had a total of about 8 ratified 3-3s in her long career) be able to beat Mao with three 3As(at the Olympics)?
I don't think it's fair to compare jumps before and after CoP; before CoP, lip/flutz/pre-rotation/under-rotation were non-issues.
As for Mao not having a salchow and toe loop, that is ridiculous. She has always had those and the dubious one was the lutz, which she has only managed to get ratified a few times post-CoP.
The great thing about Mao is that she is continuing to improve herself:
Irina got stronger as her career went on, while Mao burst on the scene and began going downhill after her first World title with some brief rises back up, then regressing again. So based on that I will vote Mao off before Irina in round 9.
Rochette nearly beat Mao in Vancouver, and both had mistakes. Irina certainly would have had the chance to do so, and wouldnt have had to skate perfectly either. A young Mao beat Irina, but Mao lost many times through her career to Miki Ando who Irina could beat in her sleep.
Mao beat Irina at Grand Prix in Olympic year.
Mao's career has not been at all smooth, but then, whose career has been? There is not one skater on the list who has done consistently well. Inconsistency is the norm, not the exception. (I guess if consistency is the criteria, I would say Michelle Kwan, but even she has her mental stumbles most unfortunately at Olympics.)
True, I just think Irina's amazing longevity as a top skater gives her the edge on Mao who is already fizzling out past her teenage years. Especialy since Mao was never able to truly be a dominant skater like Kim was for 2 seasons to compensate. In 2005-2006 was she was denied the chance by the age rule, in 2006-2007 she was challenged and beaten more than once by both Kim and Ando, in 2007-2008 was challenged by Kim and barely won Worlds over Kostner and Kim.
All the skaters you mention above have been beaten by the others, Yuna by Mao, Miki and Caro (I think), Miki by Mao, Yuna and Caro, and Caro by Mao, Miki and Yuna. So that in itself doesn't mean anything.
I have not once voted (maybe I will next time), but I think that I would take into consideration things like:
1. Longevity of career
This should favor Irina, Michelle Kwan, Mao
2. Whether or not all the jumps were there with no wrong edge or rotation issues
This criteria should actually have favored Miki, if anything. Miki should really get more recognition for being the jumper that she is.
This in my eyes should favor Mao absolutely and least favorably, Irina. I have never found her particularly enjoyable as a performer.
4. Ability to do big tricks such as 3-3 and triple-axels
This should favor Yuna as well as Mao.
5. Off-ice behavior
I think Michelle Kwan has been quite impeccable in that regard. I, being a fan of Mao, find her off-ice behavior inspiring.
I must say I was surprised to see how great Miss Asada's big jumps are upon further research. Check out the link below.
Mao Asada Triple Axel - Double Toe Loop Combination
Please, save your uber war stuff until you get there. All I'm saying here is Lu Chen happens to be much stronger champion than Miss Asada. Unlike you know who, she performed memorable programs and acheived most of her results without receiving gifts.
This isn't true. There were mandatory deductions put in place for cheated jumps during 6.0 era.
I do remeber her saying around 06/07 season that the reason she never does 3S is because points were too low.
The only one to beat Yu Na with some regularity is Mao. Miki beat her only twice ever, four years apart. Kostner beat her only once ever. Mao has lost to all those other many times over.
Just like the only ones to beat Kwan with any regularity ever are Slutskaya and Lipinski. Nobody else. She was that dominant and unbeatable, but of course for even a much longer time than Yu Na.
Are you purposely thick? No judging is done at a later date with weird picture to picture comparisons by an opinionated turd. That doesn't mean jack. Nor can those photos show anything unless every single jump that was ratified also get their own photo comparisons.
You are already ubering idiot. Oh Mao should be out because she doesn't do Triple Toe and Triple Salchow and completely dismiss the few times Kim ever did a Triple Loop. I don't possibly see how Lu Chen is a stronger champion than Mao Asada. But you are entitled to your opinion. Also I can recall several memorable programs from Mao.
I don't feel Irina's artistry is much better than Ando. She always appeared awkward to me and while she was athletic, I never found her jumps as appealing as Kwan's. So I voted for her.
You're digusted because you made a false statement (that Mao has wonderful and consistent triple salchows and toe-loops and gets positive GOEs on them) and I called you on it with proof
For the record: I believe that Mao does "have" both the triple toe-loop and the salchow, but I think they are her weakest triple jumps. Clearly her money jumps are the loop and flip, and I feel sad that the IJS rules and scrutiny have basically put an end to skaters using 3Lp as the back half of combinations because I think we've been screwed out of some truly great combos from both Mao and Miki. I actually think Mao's triple (f)lutz is also a money jump for her - despite the edge change she must have a great % consistency on it and the only times she's struggled was when she tried to fix the edge and sometimes ended up popping it.
I am tempted to make future voting decisions based on the number and behavior of each skaters' ubers. I think this should leave Slutskaya for last.
As it is, I voted for Arakawa, who was lovely but with blah programs and lots of inconsistency. I will certainly not vote Lulu out, her Last Emperor LP is one of my favorite programs ever and she gets extra points for coming from a country that didn't have that much of a skating tradition at the time.
I don't know how anyone could vote for Irina over Mao. Mao is next for me. She has two world championship titles (same as Irina), olympic silver (same as Irina) and a world silver while Irina has a 2nd Olympic medal (bronze) and (I think) 3 more world medals and between 2000-2006 (except for the years she had heart illness) would always finish on the podium. And her 2005 long program was a tear jerker for sure and I was never even a fan!
Mao is just all over the map and yeah her triple axle was neat-o but she never had any life in her eyes when she skated and always looked bored IMO. Irina was much more exciting to watch.
I do agree with others that she was really screwed due to the age rule because I do think her peak was 2006 and really could have won the Olympics had she been able to go.Unfortunately what we think "could have happened" does not count for anything because well...it didn't happen.
The only thing I found exciting about Irina was her speed, but she didn't really move effortlessly over the ice as the other skaters on the list did. Irina has a better competitive record than Mao but Mao was a more elegant and polished skater imo.
A good criterion. Had we used it from the beginning, Sarah Hughes would still be in..
i agree what that. She was a very clunky skater. but for me anyway, she was more fun to watch than Mao. Mao has like no on ice personality IMO. very elegant yes but seemed to be all business.
Mao was an elegant skater and lovely to watch at times, and did some very difficult jumps. She had all the pieces, but as her career went on they didnt come together as well as they could, and her consistency was a big problem. IMO she will go down as an underachiever. She had the potential to be the best skater ever perhaps.
For me, while I agree Irina was awkward and unfinished, she did at least bring speed and energy to some of her programs. I thought her Culture sp from 2000/2001 was PERFECT for her. The exotic "circusy" music worked with her body movements. When she basically did the same elements to the muzak version of a Schubert piece the next season it didn't work it all IMO (despite the 6.0 she was gifted at worlds that year). With Miki, even though she was more controlled, I just never felt anything from her.
I agree. I suppose I should save this argument for later, but I do agree with you. In terms of aesthetics, Irina is at the bottom of the list of remaining skaters. Her lines were ugly, her posture was bad, her extension and stretch were terrible, her programs were not my cuppa...all in all, just not the kind of skating I like. Her technical ability was great but IMO her jumps were kinda ugly. Irina got good speed and good height on her jumps but she telegraphed the hell outta her take offs and her landings left a lot to be desired in terms of riding edge and checked landing position.
When Mao was younger she was incredible. A ton of speed going into and coming out of her jumps, pretty air position, nice check on the landing...she was incredible. That's not the case anymore in terms of her jumps which don't carry as much speed and definitely lack the fast riding edge she used to have. Aesthetically, however, she is one of the most exquisite skaters I've ever seen in terms of her posture, line, extension, flow across the ice and gracefulness. She just floats...it's a quality I've never seen before and it's beautiful.
I've already said Irina comes in 2nd on this poll for me behind Michelle. Despite how unappealing her skating is to me, in terms of career accomplishments, longevity and competitiveness, she gets high marks. I adore Mao but her competitive record (thus far) can't compare. Ability is great but what you're able to accomplish with it is what matters. I think if Mao were not struggling the way she has been for the past two season, there would be a much stronger case for her. I think it's undeniable that Mao is a special kind of skater...but I do think given her abilities she's a bit of an underachiever as of right now.
Mao's career began going downhill when she went to Tarasova who isnt the coach or choreographer she used to be. She has never fully gotten on track since then, other than maybe for a blip winter of 2010.
Tarasova ran her into the ground IMO. Prior to going to her, Mao was a different skater. I think the tunnel-vision focus on the 3A is what destroyed her. The rest of her beautiful skating fell away and her programs became a showcase for that one jump. They stopped trying to fix the lutz for two whole seasons; imagine how much farther along she would be with the correct technique if they hadn't pulled that jump from her programs...
TAT did wonderful exhibition programs for Mao but aside from that, I think going to her as a full-time coach was a terrible mistake that she's still paying for today.
ITA on all. She has lost alot of her special qualities as an artist, her programs were nowhere near her artistic potential, and she began losing many of her other triples which were mostly solid and very strong pre Tarasova, which made the triple axel not just a groundbreaker but a neccessity to even have enough difficulty left.
Lori has been able to reverse some of the damage in terms of bringing Mao back into her element artistically. Her Libestraum program is a borderline masterpiece IMO and her Jupiter program leaves me speechless.
Mao is slowly finding her way back...but she was a completely different and much less enjoyable skater under Tarasova...IMO anyway.
Irina didn't move efortlessly on the ice? At times, she had almost the same outstanding speed as Kostner had with only difference that Irina fully controlled her moves and it actually was totally efortless. Just with two or three strokes she could gain enough speed to skate through the whole ice rink in her one foot footwork and didn't lose the speed at all at the end. Irina has one of the best skating skills ever in ladies' skating. One of the fastest skater ever (comparable with Caro and Fumie at their best) with deep edges and total control. Have you ever seen her fall while doing crossovers or on the approach to the jump? I remember the times when Caro had so much super speed that she couldn't perfectly control it and Irina always, even when younger and sloppy, controled her powerful skating.
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