Figure Skating Champions SURVIVOR: Ladies ROUND 7

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by SamuraiK, Jun 26, 2012.

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Who is the weakest link among these past champions

Poll closed Jul 1, 2012.
  1. Lu Chen

    79 vote(s)
    27.6%
  2. Michelle Kwan

    18 vote(s)
    6.3%
  3. Irina Slutskaya

    25 vote(s)
    8.7%
  4. Shizuka Arakawa

    116 vote(s)
    40.6%
  5. Mao Asada

    35 vote(s)
    12.2%
  6. Yuna Kim

    13 vote(s)
    4.5%
  1. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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    Voted for Shizuka because I think that C was under marked for most of her career. On top of the aforementioned under marks, I'd like to point out 1993 worlds where her beautiful six triple and combo having program lost to Baiul's combo less program. Chen should have won that worlds too IMO
  2. RumbleFish

    RumbleFish New Member

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    She was undermarked in the SP of that competition as well. IIRC, she was put in 4th place behind Baiul, Kerrigan, and Chouinard.
  3. falling_dance

    falling_dance Well-Known Member

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    Chen finished fifth in the short program at 1993 Worlds. Bonaly was third, Chouinard was fourth, and Sato finished sixth.
  4. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    IIRC :
    1-Kerrigan
    2-Baiul
    3-Bonaly
    4-Chouinard
    5-Lu Chen
  5. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I dont think she was undermarked in the SP at all at the 93 Worlds. Her program was poorly choreographed with poor music cuts, her combo was tight, and her overall performance was clearly inferior to the top 4. Chouinard who finshed 4th was undermarked and should have been 2nd or 3rd in the short, while Bonaly who was 3rd was also clearly better.

    Still there is a case for her winning the 93 Worlds as 1st in the LP, Bonaly 2nd in the LP, and Bauil 3rd in the LP, would have still given her the title, but that isnt a popular viewpoint as I began a poll on those Worlds about a year ago and Bonaly and Baiul both had far more votes than she did. There was also a poll on who deserved to win the 96 Worlds and while it was a virtual tie Chen lost that one too. There doesnt seem to be a consensus she was robbed of any major title.
  6. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    I don't know if Lu Chen was robbed, but IMO, Oksana Baiul didn't deserve any of her titles ! :saint:
    VALuvsMKwan and (deleted member) like this.
  7. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I wish I could find the poll of the 93 Worlds but I am not a payed member. I dont remember if Baiul or Bonaly won that poll. For me Baiul did not deserve any of her major titles though. Bonaly deserved the 93 Worlds and Kerrigan the 94 Olympics.

    I dont think Chen deserved either the 93 Worlds or 94 Olympics though, and the 96 Worlds is the only one she didnt win she might have deserved, and even that I am not sure on. I just dont agree with the idea she was robbed of a bunch of major titles by a weak federation, etc...and while everyone is entitled their opinion, the polls on this forum indicated very few believed she deserved either the 93 Worlds or 94 Olympics as well. Her biggest problem is her technical peak was 91-94 and her artistic peak was 95-98. 96 Worlds was the time she combined both best.
  8. Mafke

    Mafke New Member

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    I can't stand the thought of voting for either Chen or Shizukawa so I'm voting for Asada, whose skating I have just never gotten (at any level).
  9. Amy03

    Amy03 New Member

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    her landings are on a clean edge the only jump there sometimes is an edge problem is the lutz everything else (axel,loop,flip,salcow,toe) is cristal clean, which is why Mao is mostly known as a very strong technical skater... through i find her artistically even more empressive, i think most of her performances are really one of the most touching and pure to watch, they really reach out to the soul, which i find is a very rare quality and a rare ability to have... only a person without eyes wouldn't be able to see the classical elegant skater Mao is!
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2012
  10. VALuvsMKwan

    VALuvsMKwan Wandering Goy

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    Same here. Much as I am not a fan of Slutskaya's presentation style of skating or her Biellmanning almost every spin or spiral I remember her doing, she was a stronger, more powerful skater than Asada, whose skating I just could not connect with. I think she is a very admirable person, but her skating leaves me colder than any of the remaining "contestants". ETA - so Amy3, I guess I just don't have eyes - thanks so much. :rolleyes:

    I might have a different opinion next round, however.
    FunnyBut and (deleted member) like this.
  11. dawnie

    dawnie Active Member

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    I'm on the same page. Yes, Shizuka only won with Turandot, but I loved her programs at Worlds and Olympics. Along with Lu Chen's Rach and Butterfly Lovers, I enjoy re-watching those performances on YouTube. I can't say the same thing about Mao. I don't think I've watched any of her performances since the actual competition.

    I haven't voted yet, but it looks like Shiz is out and Lu Chen is right behind her. For reasons already stated by other people, I don't believe Lulu deserves to be voted off the island yet. Mao should get a closer look IMO.
  12. duane

    duane New Member

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    Well, there you have it...solid proof.
  13. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    OK I dont remember any experts, writers, commentators, coaches, anyone arguing Chen deserving to win either the 93 Worlds or 94 Olympics, and I say that as someone that likes Chen alot more than any of Bonaly, Kerrigan, or Baiul, and who thinks her free skates at both events were excellent. She is also one of the most popular skaters on this forum so if even on a poll she didnt get many votes for those two events, it is telling. The only event she didnt win I remember being debated by anyone was the 96 Worlds. Then her win at the 95 Worlds was well deserved, but very close amongst the top 4, and she needed Bobek to bomb to have a shot of winning.

    She and Shizuka were both excellent but neither even had potential to ever be a dominant skater. Even Butyrskaya who was the third one voted out had more potential for that as she could have won back to back Worlds and only needed to skate a cleanish free skate to do it, something Chen couldnt do delivering the performance of her life.
  14. dawnie

    dawnie Active Member

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    Really? I get that you're a huge Mao fan but let's get real. Sometimes an edge problem with the lutz? Her salchow and toe crystal clean?
  15. umronnie

    umronnie Active Member

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    To complement the medal cont I did for the men, here's the career ranking for ladies (Not going to do pairs or dance. Pairs seem obvious to me and I couldn't care less about dance).

    By OG/WC medals
    Kwan 11 (5)
    Slutskaya 8 (2)
    Kim 6 (2)
    Chen 6(1)
    Asada 4 (2)
    Kostner 4 (1)
    Ando 3 (2)
    Butyrskaya 3 (1)
    Arakawa, Lipinski 2 (2)
    Hughes 1 (1)
    Meissner 1 (1)

    By total medal count
    Slutskaya 49 (26)
    Kwan 32 (18)
    Butyrskaya 27 (15)
    Kostner 25 (10)
    Asada 24 (13)
    Kim 19 (13)
    Ando 18 (8)
    Chen 14 (4)
    Arakawa 14 (3)
    Hughes 11 (2)
    Lipinski 9 (4)
    Meissner 6 (3)

    By medals per year
    Lipinski 4.5 (2.0)
    Slutskaya 4.5 (2.4)
    Kim 3.8 (2.6)
    Asada 3.5 (1.9)
    Butyrskaya 2.7 (1.5) by a hair over Kwan
    Kwan 2.7 (1.5)
    Kostner 2.5 (1.0)
    Ando 2.3 (1.0)
    Hughes 2.2 (0.4)
    Meissner 2.0 (1.0)
    Chen 1.8 (0.5)
    Arakawa 1.8 (0.4)

    Not doing 4CCs hurt the American ladies (and Chen - she never even had the chance) vs the European on total medal count and medals per year.
  16. Amy03

    Amy03 New Member

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    i would recommend you to watch Mao's performance from when she became a senior competitor tell now, cause then you would see that the toe and salcow have been very reliable jumps, in far most of her performances, and effortlesly done on top of it!
  17. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Her jumping technique is not pure. She rotates fastly, and her air position is very good.
    I've just watched a video with her triple/triple combos, and that's right that most of the time, her landing edge is good (the Flip).
    http://youtu.be/WO0W5A5IKug?t=2m45s
    Here, her landing is not very good. Most of the time, it's the case on the Axel and the Loop. But of course, it's on a very difficult combo. ;)
  18. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Just looking at the 3 biggest events if you gave points something like this:

    Olympic Gold- 10
    Olympic Silver- 6
    Olympic bronze- 3

    World Gold- 5
    World Silver- 3
    World Bronze- 1

    Grand Prix final Gold- 3
    Grand Prix final silver- 2
    Grand Prix final bronze- 1

    You would end up with for the 12 women who started this poll:

    Kwan- 55
    Slutskaya- 49
    Kim- 34
    Asada- 29
    Lipinski- 21
    Arakawa- 18
    Chen- 16
    Kostner- 16
    Ando- 13
    Hughes- 13
    Butyrskaya- 11
    Meissner- 5
  19. Amy03

    Amy03 New Member

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    well this is a good try but i really think it's wrong to make the difference between a world gold and a olympic gold, cause the ISU has given them equel points, (it's like saying the title miss universe is better then miss world lol)
    and in your calculation you forgot to add four continents.
  20. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Well there is more to consider than the 3 biggest events. Of course to get a total picture one has to go a bit deeper into the moderate events and downwards. However what to do with Four Continents is complicated since there is also Europeans, and there are likely varying opinions how they compared. Plus Four Continents is a relatively new event and wasnt prestigious to the skaters until recently. None European skaters like Michelle Kwan, Tara Lipinski, and Lu Chen never even competed at Four Continents due to when they skated so would be disadvantaged, which isnt really true of anyone on this particular list for the GP final for instance.

    I probably had the Olympic point totals a bit high, but it is definitely worth more than a Worlds without question.
  21. dawnie

    dawnie Active Member

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    :lol:
    Are you being sarcastic or do you really believe the toe and especially the salchow are very reliable jumps for her? Everyone knows the flip and loop have been her only reliable jumps for years.
  22. Amy03

    Amy03 New Member

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    well don't know which competition you have watched, but the once i have rewatched at least a hundred times they certainly looked beautifully attempted and landed! and her getting credit for it and positive goe also shows that the technical judge thinks and sees the same as i do!
  23. bartek

    bartek New Member

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    Why didn't you use both Europeans and 4CC? To make sure Kwan would beat Slutskaya? If you gave points to Irina for her seven european golds she would win.
  24. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I am a much bigger fan of Slutskaya than Kwan. I just posted the biggest 3 events as a starting point, I havent figured out yet how I would point the other events. Anyway it is my own opinion, it would be fun if others made their own point system.

    Four Continents in the Kwan era is complex though since almost none of the top skaters ever competed there, as the fact Kwan active from 1999-2005 never competing there reflects.
  25. bartek

    bartek New Member

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    Ok, I see but I would say that Europeans are much more prestigious and important for skaters than GPF. Of course 4CC haven't always been as important as they are now but Europeans have very long tradition and have always been considered as the third most important event after Olympics and Worlds. I noticed that a lot of european male skaters care for Europeans a lot and tell about hat in their interviews, e.g. Plushenko, Joubert, Amodio and Verner.
  26. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I agree about the importance of Europeans, I am just not sure how to put into proper perspective since non Europeans dont get to compete there. I will probably redo my totals giving the same value to Europeans and Four Continents though, and giving some value to the grand prix events and Goodwill Games. It seems Slutskaya would come out ahead in that case. For the skaters who chose not to compete at Four Continents, I guess it was their choice.
  27. FunnyBut

    FunnyBut Well-Known Member

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    I think your numbers are quite fair, an Olympics should be weighted more heavily Worlds, everyone trains in a 4 year cycle, trying to peak at the Olympics.

    The only skaters that sort of get 'shorted' are the ones who win both Olympics Worlds early in life, specifcally Tara and Yuna. Life changes once the greatest goals are met, who knows what other medals they might have earned had they still been hungry and singularily focused toward skating competition.
  28. FunnyBut

    FunnyBut Well-Known Member

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    :lol: What kind of competition did Irina have at Euros? Really only Maria B., and only for about three seasons. Perhaps we should count Senior Bs too, and then Carolina would have everyone else beat. A competition is only as good as its competitors. Kwan had it far tougher at her own Nationals, she faced Sasha, Sara, Tara, Nicole B, Kimmie, all at one time legitamate contenders for a World or Olympic gold medal. I'd say Miki and Mao had it tougher at Japanese Nats than Irina at most Europeans. Yeah, for dance, pairs and men Euros was a strong competition, for Ladies, not nearly so much.
  29. bartek

    bartek New Member

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    I agree that it's more diffciult to win a medal at Japan Nationals than gold at Europeans but still Irina's longevity and winning those gold medals seven times is very impressive and admirable. I wouldn't say it was easier for Irina to win Europeans than for Michelle to win US Nats in 00s. After 2002 Olympics the only competition for Michelle was Sasha and as much as I adore her she couldn't put it together at Nationals and made it easier for Michelle to win.
  30. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    Voted for Lulu, but feel it's close between her and Shiz.
  31. DaiKozOda

    DaiKozOda Active Member

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  32. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    Lu Chen has a higher medal count and through most of her career was a stronger competitor than Arakawa IMO. I voted for Shizzle.
  33. Cheylana

    Cheylana Well-Known Member

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    I also voted for Shizuka (same as last round).
  34. casken

    casken Well-Known Member

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    Unpopular opinion, but this is the point where I would kick out Slutskaya.

    Slutskaya had about one season where she was skating at her full potential, which was the season of her comeback in late 99-2000. She improved every aspect of her skating and was at her absolute peak. Her 99 and 2000 sps are her best ever and I don't think I've ever seen her move with more power, freedom, elegance, and feeling as this section of this exhibition program from the 2000 season. or this Schindler's List exhibition exhibition from around the same time. That would have been a way better program for the Olympics than the heavy and ponderous Tosca program.

    And of course, her best competitive skate was the 2000 GPF. Obviously the triple/triples are a huge part, but she's never skated a competitive program with that much lightness and ease ever again. Compare this to her "Don Quixote" skates from the next season and their is no comparison.

    Then, once she got back to the top, it was back to the old Slutskaya; stiff upper body, stiff arms, choreography disconnected from the music, stalked jumps, heavy landed lutz/flip jumps, unfinished spins, etc... Total regression.

    Chen and Arakawa at least improved the quality of their skating, style, and programs throughout their career.
    kwanette and (deleted member) like this.
  35. bartek

    bartek New Member

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    In my opinion Slutskaya's peak was when she came back after her heart illness.

    Heavy landed lutz/flip? Have you ever seen her lutz or flip? They are gorgeous! She got about twice the height Michelle had. Unfinished spins? So how would you describe Michelle's spins? Feeble imitation of spins?

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUGoNw8lXy8&t=1m20s
    Is this triple flip heavy landed? Huge height and good flow out of the jump. I see nothing bad in this jump.

    She also didn't have any problematic jump like most of current skaters have, e.g. loop for Yu-Na. She had a complete set of all triples (without triple axel of course) and always put them all in her programs. Not to mention her difficult entrance to triple loop which she popularised and triple-triples with loop at the end.

    Apart from being one of the best jumpers in history, Slutskaya probably ranks in the top ten of the best spinners ever too. Technically she was a whole package. Huge jumps, great spins, speed, deep edges in spirals (of course Dick and Peggy never even mentioned her edges and speed in spirals, only focusing on the extention)...

    Even when CoP came into the scene she easily adjusted and Dick Button once noticed that when most of the skaters lost speed and centering when they got into difficult variations, Slutskaya not only didn't lose speed but actually gained it and stayed in one spot on the ice. Her biellman and donut were first rate. She didn't have to drop her leg unaesthetically like most of skaters do. Her camel was also great and she got big height on her flying spins. Everything about her spins was superior to Kwan apart from sit spin. Her layback position was also very good with nice arch in the back and good leg position. Michelle had terrible back position and low free leg.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUGoNw8lXy8&t=3m53s an example of her great signature double biellman spin
  36. ali_dorate

    ali_dorate New Member

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    Shizuka is a typical late bloomer.
    Although she had been called "a gifted girl" when she was a novice, she could not deliver an eye-catching performance in international competitions after her senior debut.

    But when you see the competitive results of the last three years of her career as an amateur athlete, she got;
    1 Gold at Olympics
    1 Gold at World Championships
    1 Silver at GPF
    1 Bronze at GPF.

    This is a great accomplishment.
    Her winning at 2006 Winter Olympics was not only the first gold medal in Asian countries in figure skating history, but was a only "one" Gold medal that entire Japanese national Olympic team could get at 2006 Olympics, and that happed at the last moment of that Olympic period! You can't imagine how deeply Japanese people were moved and exited.

    I call the skater who can deliver the performance when it really counts a strong skater. Shizuka is definitely one of the strongest skaters.
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2012
  37. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    ^ Yeah, unfortunately, Shizuka wasn't consistent enough to deliver those performances when it always counted. She screwed up at Worlds more than half the time she was there and placed abysmally in Nagano and 1998 Worlds and had a dry spell on the World scene for nearly 4 years after that.

    Shiz has some nice aspects to her skating, but IMO it is her time to go.
  38. victoriaheidi

    victoriaheidi New Member

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    Shizuka's going to go, huh? :(

    I voted Mao.
  39. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    EYS.
  40. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    Worlds 2012 the 3S was under-rotated and got negative GOE, no 3T attempted.

    Worlds 2011 Popped the salchow to a 1S and had the 3T downgraded (<<).

    Worlds 2010 She landed the 3T with positive GOE but did not attempt a salchow.

    2010 Olympics popped the toe-loop to a 1T and did not attempt a salchow.

    I don't think she included a salchow for at least a couple of seasons prior to the Olympics so i'm just not seeing salchow and toe-loop as being these wonderful jumps that Mao did/does.