Figure Skating Champions SURVIVOR: Ladies ROUND 7

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by SamuraiK, Jun 26, 2012.

Who is the weakest link among these past champions

Poll closed Jul 1, 2012.
  1. Lu Chen

    79 vote(s)
    27.6%
  2. Michelle Kwan

    18 vote(s)
    6.3%
  3. Irina Slutskaya

    25 vote(s)
    8.7%
  4. Shizuka Arakawa

    116 vote(s)
    40.6%
  5. Mao Asada

    35 vote(s)
    12.2%
  6. Yuna Kim

    13 vote(s)
    4.5%
  1. sk8ingcoach

    sk8ingcoach Active Member

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    Voting for Chen Lu... Yes artistically she was great, but compared to the other skaters on this poll, her technical ability is way low.
     
  2. attyfan

    attyfan Well-Known Member

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    I voted for Shizuka. While her performances to "Turandot" were magical (esp Worlds 2004), she couldn't skate well to anything else ... Chen Lu (and all the others) could not only skate well to more than one piece of music, but actually medal! I also treat Chen Lu as having two World golds, since (IMO) 1996 should have been a tie, with duplicate golds.
     
  3. duane

    duane New Member

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    I'm no longer voting in any of these SURVIVOR polls in protest. But I'll continue reading/posting. ;)

    The above is my sentiment exactly, but I can understand the rationale for voting Lulu off. Since becoming a FS fan in 94 after the famous WACK, I don't recall Chen Lu ever skating a clean (as in, all planned elements landed) long program other than 96 Worlds. I think her Olympics 94 LP was the best of the night and was undermarked, but wonder the outcome if she had landed her planned 3lz/3t and/or didn't have the hand down on the 3f. A doubled 3lz nearly cost her World gold. She barely squeezed out the win in 95 (if I remember correctly, she and Surya received 3 1st place ordinals, and either Michelle also received 3, or she received 2 and Nicole received one). And as happy as I was for her winning a 2nd bronze at 98 Olympics, I don't think it was deserved.
     
  4. FunnyBut

    FunnyBut Well-Known Member

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    Arakawa overwhelming won the LP and therefore the competition, given the way Cohen and Slute skated. I don't think it had anything to do with her impressive practices, she was the clear cut winner in competition. But I agree with you, she skated with conservative content to assure she'd get a medal of any color, not necessarily gold. Japan had not won a single Winter Olympic medal in any sport at that point, and Arakawa, sitting in 3rd after the SP, was the last hope. She was totally shocked when Irina faltered and she won the biggest prize in the Winter Olympic games.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2012
  5. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    Re-posting what I posted last round:

    I'll add to that by saying in comparison to Chen, Shizuka's record is less impressive. Yes, Shiz has an OGM but that's one competition and one result. As we get to the end of the poll we need curve the myopia and look at the bigger picture when it comes to the skater as a whole, which means pointing to one accomplishment isn't going to cut it anymore.

    IMO Chen's body of work over the course of her career is more consistent. She's also regarded as one of the most artistic skaters of her era. Additionally, she was a pioneer for figure skating in her country (a la Yu-Na in Korea).

    I think Shizuka was a skater with great edges, technique and jumping ability. Artistically I found her to be a one-note skater and that note was always something by Puccini. She was a middle of the pack skater who had the skate of her life in Dortmund (2004 worlds) and managed to hold it together in Torino while others fell apart.

    When comparing her traits and accomplishments to the remaining skaters on this list, her body of work doesn't hold up IMO.
     
  6. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    For me it was a tough choice between Shizuka and Chen Lu. I love them both. I voted for Shizuka based on the fact that in all her years of competing she won medals at world/Olympic level just twice. They were both golds which raises her overall value a lot, but I would give more credit to Chen Lu's sustained success over the years. She missed the cut in 1997 worlds due to personal problems, but otherwise she has been very competitive and at least a medal contender (plus a world champion) rest of the way. Her 1996 LP performance at worlds, which got her two 6.0s (but did not win the gold) was one of the most artistic performance by a lady I have ever seen.
     
  7. RumbleFish

    RumbleFish New Member

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    Chen Lu was undermarked at major events so many times.

    In 92 Albertville, she skated the best freeskate but didn't get acknowledged because she had made a silly mistake in the SP and hence didn't make the final flight.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c19Hk1g0qrE

    Like you said, she skated the best freeskate in 94 Lillehammer but was undermarked.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfAo4rfrSn0

    In 95 Worlds, she won the competition convincingly, yet she barely eaked out enough ordinals.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARd8UsQj_Ag
    The Last Emperor has been one of my favorite programs. I just can't get enough of how she does her steps starting from 3m10s. Although I am an Asian, I had never realized before how effervescent Asian music can be.

    At 96 Edmonton, she really should have won the gold with Rachmaninoff. There was a difference in level of maturity between her and young Michelle Kwan that one more triple jump just couldn't make up for.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHEMyp_QFYo

    I agree that her bronze medal at 98 Nagano was a gift. I'm usually not for judges giving out medals for life time acheivements, but if I had to choose one skater who deserved one, it would have been Chen Lu at Nagano. She had been through so much, and yet given so many beautiful performances over the years.

    I just saw this clip of her and her husband Denis Petrov. It seems she is doing so well having her own rink in China. I hope she does just as well in coaching as she did in skating, and showcase her students in major competitions soon.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEnpb3pW-xM
     
  8. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    I voted for Arakawa instead of Chen.. same reasons as last time.
     
  9. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    That's the problem with Mao. And that's why I don't consider her as one of very best. Her jumping technique is questionnable, IMO, and her landings are not really on a clean edge. :cold:
     
  10. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I went with Lu Chen but after reading your post I wish I had gone with Shizuka.

    The thing about them is neither had the capacity to be dominant skaters. Both won all their major titles through others mistakes. That is why the 96 Worlds would have been the crowning glory of Chen's career, she would have defended her title over a clean 7 triple Kwan who had developed great artistry and dominated that season, but 2 more people had to feel a certain way for her to have that moment. Arakawa could have had that moment in Turin if she did her practice programs, nobody would dare say that a clean Cohen or Slutskaya had beaten her if she her program with the content she had planned as she probably would have scored around 140 based on what she got for what she did, but she didnt.
     
  11. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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    Voted for Shizuka because I think that C was under marked for most of her career. On top of the aforementioned under marks, I'd like to point out 1993 worlds where her beautiful six triple and combo having program lost to Baiul's combo less program. Chen should have won that worlds too IMO
     
  12. RumbleFish

    RumbleFish New Member

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    She was undermarked in the SP of that competition as well. IIRC, she was put in 4th place behind Baiul, Kerrigan, and Chouinard.
     
  13. falling_dance

    falling_dance Happy for Kozuka, Sad for D. Murakami

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    Chen finished fifth in the short program at 1993 Worlds. Bonaly was third, Chouinard was fourth, and Sato finished sixth.
     
  14. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    IIRC :
    1-Kerrigan
    2-Baiul
    3-Bonaly
    4-Chouinard
    5-Lu Chen
     
  15. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I dont think she was undermarked in the SP at all at the 93 Worlds. Her program was poorly choreographed with poor music cuts, her combo was tight, and her overall performance was clearly inferior to the top 4. Chouinard who finshed 4th was undermarked and should have been 2nd or 3rd in the short, while Bonaly who was 3rd was also clearly better.

    Still there is a case for her winning the 93 Worlds as 1st in the LP, Bonaly 2nd in the LP, and Bauil 3rd in the LP, would have still given her the title, but that isnt a popular viewpoint as I began a poll on those Worlds about a year ago and Bonaly and Baiul both had far more votes than she did. There was also a poll on who deserved to win the 96 Worlds and while it was a virtual tie Chen lost that one too. There doesnt seem to be a consensus she was robbed of any major title.
     
  16. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    I don't know if Lu Chen was robbed, but IMO, Oksana Baiul didn't deserve any of her titles ! :saint:
     
    VALuvsMKwan and (deleted member) like this.
  17. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I wish I could find the poll of the 93 Worlds but I am not a payed member. I dont remember if Baiul or Bonaly won that poll. For me Baiul did not deserve any of her major titles though. Bonaly deserved the 93 Worlds and Kerrigan the 94 Olympics.

    I dont think Chen deserved either the 93 Worlds or 94 Olympics though, and the 96 Worlds is the only one she didnt win she might have deserved, and even that I am not sure on. I just dont agree with the idea she was robbed of a bunch of major titles by a weak federation, etc...and while everyone is entitled their opinion, the polls on this forum indicated very few believed she deserved either the 93 Worlds or 94 Olympics as well. Her biggest problem is her technical peak was 91-94 and her artistic peak was 95-98. 96 Worlds was the time she combined both best.
     
  18. Mafke

    Mafke New Member

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    I can't stand the thought of voting for either Chen or Shizukawa so I'm voting for Asada, whose skating I have just never gotten (at any level).
     
  19. Amy03

    Amy03 Member

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    her landings are on a clean edge the only jump there sometimes is an edge problem is the lutz everything else (axel,loop,flip,salcow,toe) is cristal clean, which is why Mao is mostly known as a very strong technical skater... through i find her artistically even more empressive, i think most of her performances are really one of the most touching and pure to watch, they really reach out to the soul, which i find is a very rare quality and a rare ability to have... only a person without eyes wouldn't be able to see the classical elegant skater Mao is!
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2012
  20. VALuvsMKwan

    VALuvsMKwan Wandering Goy

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    Same here. Much as I am not a fan of Slutskaya's presentation style of skating or her Biellmanning almost every spin or spiral I remember her doing, she was a stronger, more powerful skater than Asada, whose skating I just could not connect with. I think she is a very admirable person, but her skating leaves me colder than any of the remaining "contestants". ETA - so Amy3, I guess I just don't have eyes - thanks so much. :rolleyes:

    I might have a different opinion next round, however.
     
    FunnyBut and (deleted member) like this.
  21. dawnie

    dawnie Active Member

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    I'm on the same page. Yes, Shizuka only won with Turandot, but I loved her programs at Worlds and Olympics. Along with Lu Chen's Rach and Butterfly Lovers, I enjoy re-watching those performances on YouTube. I can't say the same thing about Mao. I don't think I've watched any of her performances since the actual competition.

    I haven't voted yet, but it looks like Shiz is out and Lu Chen is right behind her. For reasons already stated by other people, I don't believe Lulu deserves to be voted off the island yet. Mao should get a closer look IMO.
     
  22. duane

    duane New Member

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    Well, there you have it...solid proof.
     
  23. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    OK I dont remember any experts, writers, commentators, coaches, anyone arguing Chen deserving to win either the 93 Worlds or 94 Olympics, and I say that as someone that likes Chen alot more than any of Bonaly, Kerrigan, or Baiul, and who thinks her free skates at both events were excellent. She is also one of the most popular skaters on this forum so if even on a poll she didnt get many votes for those two events, it is telling. The only event she didnt win I remember being debated by anyone was the 96 Worlds. Then her win at the 95 Worlds was well deserved, but very close amongst the top 4, and she needed Bobek to bomb to have a shot of winning.

    She and Shizuka were both excellent but neither even had potential to ever be a dominant skater. Even Butyrskaya who was the third one voted out had more potential for that as she could have won back to back Worlds and only needed to skate a cleanish free skate to do it, something Chen couldnt do delivering the performance of her life.
     
  24. dawnie

    dawnie Active Member

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    Really? I get that you're a huge Mao fan but let's get real. Sometimes an edge problem with the lutz? Her salchow and toe crystal clean?
     
  25. umronnie

    umronnie Well-Known Member

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    To complement the medal cont I did for the men, here's the career ranking for ladies (Not going to do pairs or dance. Pairs seem obvious to me and I couldn't care less about dance).

    By OG/WC medals
    Kwan 11 (5)
    Slutskaya 8 (2)
    Kim 6 (2)
    Chen 6(1)
    Asada 4 (2)
    Kostner 4 (1)
    Ando 3 (2)
    Butyrskaya 3 (1)
    Arakawa, Lipinski 2 (2)
    Hughes 1 (1)
    Meissner 1 (1)

    By total medal count
    Slutskaya 49 (26)
    Kwan 32 (18)
    Butyrskaya 27 (15)
    Kostner 25 (10)
    Asada 24 (13)
    Kim 19 (13)
    Ando 18 (8)
    Chen 14 (4)
    Arakawa 14 (3)
    Hughes 11 (2)
    Lipinski 9 (4)
    Meissner 6 (3)

    By medals per year
    Lipinski 4.5 (2.0)
    Slutskaya 4.5 (2.4)
    Kim 3.8 (2.6)
    Asada 3.5 (1.9)
    Butyrskaya 2.7 (1.5) by a hair over Kwan
    Kwan 2.7 (1.5)
    Kostner 2.5 (1.0)
    Ando 2.3 (1.0)
    Hughes 2.2 (0.4)
    Meissner 2.0 (1.0)
    Chen 1.8 (0.5)
    Arakawa 1.8 (0.4)

    Not doing 4CCs hurt the American ladies (and Chen - she never even had the chance) vs the European on total medal count and medals per year.
     
  26. Amy03

    Amy03 Member

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    i would recommend you to watch Mao's performance from when she became a senior competitor tell now, cause then you would see that the toe and salcow have been very reliable jumps, in far most of her performances, and effortlesly done on top of it!
     
  27. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Her jumping technique is not pure. She rotates fastly, and her air position is very good.
    I've just watched a video with her triple/triple combos, and that's right that most of the time, her landing edge is good (the Flip).
    http://youtu.be/WO0W5A5IKug?t=2m45s
    Here, her landing is not very good. Most of the time, it's the case on the Axel and the Loop. But of course, it's on a very difficult combo. ;)
     
  28. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Just looking at the 3 biggest events if you gave points something like this:

    Olympic Gold- 10
    Olympic Silver- 6
    Olympic bronze- 3

    World Gold- 5
    World Silver- 3
    World Bronze- 1

    Grand Prix final Gold- 3
    Grand Prix final silver- 2
    Grand Prix final bronze- 1

    You would end up with for the 12 women who started this poll:

    Kwan- 55
    Slutskaya- 49
    Kim- 34
    Asada- 29
    Lipinski- 21
    Arakawa- 18
    Chen- 16
    Kostner- 16
    Ando- 13
    Hughes- 13
    Butyrskaya- 11
    Meissner- 5
     
  29. Amy03

    Amy03 Member

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    well this is a good try but i really think it's wrong to make the difference between a world gold and a olympic gold, cause the ISU has given them equel points, (it's like saying the title miss universe is better then miss world lol)
    and in your calculation you forgot to add four continents.
     
  30. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Well there is more to consider than the 3 biggest events. Of course to get a total picture one has to go a bit deeper into the moderate events and downwards. However what to do with Four Continents is complicated since there is also Europeans, and there are likely varying opinions how they compared. Plus Four Continents is a relatively new event and wasnt prestigious to the skaters until recently. None European skaters like Michelle Kwan, Tara Lipinski, and Lu Chen never even competed at Four Continents due to when they skated so would be disadvantaged, which isnt really true of anyone on this particular list for the GP final for instance.

    I probably had the Olympic point totals a bit high, but it is definitely worth more than a Worlds without question.