Figure Skating Champions SURVIVOR: Ladies ROUND 5

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by SamuraiK, Jun 15, 2012.

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Who is the weakest link among these past champions

Poll closed Jun 21, 2012.
  1. Lu Chen

    18 vote(s)
    6.0%
  2. Michelle Kwan

    10 vote(s)
    3.3%
  3. Tara Lipinski

    79 vote(s)
    26.2%
  4. Irina Slutskaya

    11 vote(s)
    3.6%
  5. Shizuka Arakawa

    37 vote(s)
    12.3%
  6. Mao Asada

    12 vote(s)
    4.0%
  7. Yu-Na Kim

    10 vote(s)
    3.3%
  8. Carolina Kostner

    125 vote(s)
    41.4%
  1. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    Who is 'she'?

    You can dislike her and find your own explanations of 'stomp' as "compared with most skaters' meek behavior", just don't make it sound like the truth. It's just your biased opinion of a skater.
  2. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    Considering what the Russian Mafia did to Maria last week, anything is possible :lol:
  3. FunnyBut

    FunnyBut Well-Known Member

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    :rofl: Unfortunately, they gave the robot some limp slouching shoulders to make her look like a 'real' human skater. They must have used Rachael Flatt as their model. Still, I think Caro should have gotten the boot first.
  4. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    Yeah, Miki fascinates me as a skater. In competition, she's largely a done - a couple solild SPs not withstanding. But her gala skates are always well done.

    I love Kostner, and would be thrilled to see her continue. If only because the really tough decisions are coming up.
  5. sk8ingcoach

    sk8ingcoach Active Member

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    As much as Carolina is probably my Favourite skater of all time, i can accept that it is her time to go... I was just happy that she made it past Butyrskaya. However i coulod never vote her off, so i voted for Chen Lu as i believe she is the next weakest
  6. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

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    I voted for Carolina to go.

    This is probably the first season ever where I actually (sort of) enjoyed her skating. Up until this yr, I found her gawky and lacking in anything close to artistry. I do appreciate her skating skills and speed.

    I ppretty much agree with what Berthes Ghost had to say about Tara.
  7. SkateBlades17

    SkateBlades17 New Member

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    I do not think that Tara should be voted off yet at all!! She was very talented and one of the most consistant skaters. Being consistant is a big thing for me. Sasha Cohen and Nicole Bobek for example were great skaters, but could hardly ever keep it together and put two clean programs together. I predict that Michelle will win this by the way. :)

    I voted for Carolina by the way.
  8. eurodance2001

    eurodance2001 Active Member

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    ITA!! Caro must go! Next is Shizuka for me..
  9. eurodance2001

    eurodance2001 Active Member

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    Considering the Mafia firebombed Maria's car, she can stomp off in a tizzy if she wants!!
  10. npavel

    npavel Well-Known Member

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    I'll never understand how Tara can be a stronger champion than Carolina who has better skating skills, bigger jumps, greater spirals and spins. Carolinas artistry and interpretation is so much better and the presence on the ice as a real lady make her stand over Tara by far
    I voted for Tara from the second round and will do it until she is gone
  11. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    How about difficulty and ability to skate clean under pressure at the big events?
    Carolina's artistry has really come through in the last two seasons, but her skating looked really clumsy for most of her career IMO. I'm in love with her programs from this year and last, but if I had to make a choice I still prefer Tara's from 98.
  12. SkateBlades17

    SkateBlades17 New Member

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    I agree!
  13. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Carolina does not have very strong spins. She lost Skate America to a splatty Czisny in part since she was outscored by a whopping 5-6 points on spins alone in the LP.

    Tara did the hardest programs done by a women in history to that point, other than possibly Midori Ito, and amazingly did them clean repeatedly at age 14-15. Kostner in the year 2012 is doing the jump content the top ladies in the mid 80s used to do, and still rarely doing it cleanly. Tara won events by beating a prime Michelle Kwan repeatedly, and beat a clean Michelle to win Olympic Gold; not to mention overcoming Slutskaya, Chen, Butyrskaya, and others, while Carolina wins a big event finally by beating Alena Leovova and Akiko Suzuki, and one of her career highlights was barely beating a really bad and way past her prime Kwan at the 2005 Worlds.
  14. bartek

    bartek New Member

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    Couldn't agree more.

    Kostner hasn't even skated a clean long program in her whole career which after all has been lasting for many years. Tara during her very short career skated so many clean free skates that they may, as unbelievable as it sounds, outnumber her flawed ones. Kostner's inconsistency and amount of her total meltdowns is the reason I would vote her off before Ando.
  15. victoriaheidi

    victoriaheidi New Member

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    You know you spend too much time on FSU when you dream that you got voted off Survivor. Seriously, where in the world did I even come up with that one?!
  16. ChelleC

    ChelleC Well-Known Member

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    Voting for Tara again.
  17. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    Voted for Kostner to go.
  18. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    I'm almost ready for this poll to go...:rolleyes:

    Let's move this thing along and get rid of the top 3 vote getters this round. This one person off every 6 days is starting to drag...
  19. Cheylana

    Cheylana Well-Known Member

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    Can we shorten the voting period for the next round? Like, maybe to 3-4 days? If an FSUer isn't willing to check in at least that often, then maybe that person doesn't deserve to vote! :p

    What is there not to understand? You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but most of what you are saying is mere opinion, not cold hard facts. I agree with judgejudy that Carolina doesn't have better spins than Tara. I also don't think either has the edge on spirals -- both are fine, neither awe-inspiring. For sure Carolina's jumps are bigger than Tara's, but then again Carolina is about 8 inches taller than Tara was when she competed, so that's not so surprising. I'm also not persuaded that Carolina's skating skills are inherently better than Tara's. They were both fast across the ice, and I think Tara had more control than Carolina did until recently.
    Again, this is just an opinion, which is not necessarily shared by everyone.
    Apples and oranges. Of course Carolina at age 25 is going to look more like a lady than Tara at age 15. How ladylike was Carolina at age 15-17? I'll answer that for you...not very. She was a cute but gawky teenager with loads of potential, which she is now realizing, and a million kudos to her.
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2012
  20. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    I second that, Cheylana! :respec:
  21. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    I'm with you on that, you know.
    I'm so sad few of us see how amazing Carolina is. :wuzrobbed

    Anyway, even if I'm an MK fan (and a Caro fan), I feel something for Tara, and her 1997 Worlds SP&LP will always be in my best memories.
  22. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    I third it.
  23. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

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    I do think the poll drags on longer than it needs to. 5 days sounds like adequate time to get all the votes in. Besides, it seems more than 3/4 of the votes cast are done in the first 2-3 days anyway.
  24. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    I don't get all the hate for Lipinski and Kostner and all the love for Chen Lu. I voted for her, Carolina has better skating skills and jumping skills than Chen Lu, and has had a longer career at or near the top than she did.
  25. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    Chen Lu was a better skater and competitor than Kostner. She did not have to wait to be 25 to finally win the world championship in a weak field. Caro's two earlier world medals were gifts from the judges, and she never was a gold contender until this year. I have enjoyed watching the maturation of Kostner, but compared with other ladies she is the weakest at this point (IMO she was weaker than Maria, who was eliminated in the previous round).
  26. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    if you say so. Everybody is entitled to an opinion.
    :lol::lol: sorry, that's where you lost me. Chen landed on the podium at the year's greatest event every year for 5 years in a row, 6 out of 7 if you include 97. Kostner would follow up a world medal with a 12th and then a 6th place finish over and over again.

    Boy, you sure do have an awfully broad interpretation of "at or near the top"!
  27. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Carolina does have better skating skills than Chen Lu or almost anyone. Better jumping skills though? Chen has better jumping skills based on her ability to peel off 6 or 7 triple programs with a 2nd triple lutz repeatedly from 93-96. Chen competed in a very deep era with Yamaguchi, Baiul, Bonaly, Kwan, Lipinski, Kerrigan, which is why she won only 1 World title, along with missing a good shot at another when she was forced to pull out of the 94 Worlds. Kostner would never win a World title in that era with anything she has put on the ice so far. Maybe if she could have skated her 2008 programs with the jumps she was attempting then cleanly, but she never came close.
  28. SamuraiK

    SamuraiK Well-Known Member

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    The next battle between Tara and Shizuka will be interesting. This is also the first round where Irina is NOT the least voted.
  29. jiggs

    jiggs Well-Known Member

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    But are jumping skills only based on the ability to peel off 6 or 7 triple programs?

    For me, jumping ability/skills is far more than that. It's the quality and textbook technique in Caro's jumps, the height, tight air position, speed in and out of the jump and her smooth landings that make her a more skilled jumper for me.

    I have seen Caro practice loads of times and she peels off those jumps as if they were nothing and all of them are just exquisite.

    Just look at this 3f3t3l: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RidqJMamkSQ
    Or her first Euros performance including a 3lz3t, 3f3t and 2a3sal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28djAK9g4-0

    Now I know practice doesn't count much when we talk about champions and what really counts is what these skaters show in competition. In that aspect, I can agree with Carolina being voted off now.

    But again, looking at jumping skills and ability only, I think Carolina is right up there with anyone in the world. The only thing that has been missing for her so often and so long is the ability to control her nerves. She has everything else but could never quite manage in competition. Imagine a Carolina with nerves of steel ... she would have been unstoppable.
  30. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I agree the quality of her jumps, when landed, is better. It just doesnt compensate for so many mistakes and missed jumps on a regular basis, and rarely even managing 5 triple performances, and at the height of your career success not even doing a triple lutz two decades after it became a regular jump.
    Vash01 and (deleted member) like this.
  31. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    Jumps done in practice are just that- practice jumps that don't count toward any marks in competitions. Carolina's misses were too many and too frequent. In competitions very often her jumps were sloppy/not landed/too many falls. Her spins are so so. She has the most speed in all of ladies skating, but she did not have the nerves of steel, which are important when it comes to winning competitions. She finally won without difficult jumps and without a tough competition from other skaters. I may enjoy her skating (and that only started last year), but I don't respect her as an athlete.
  32. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    I think we don't see weakness the same way. Some of us consider Quantity, and others consider Quality.
  33. jiggs

    jiggs Well-Known Member

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    The lutz thing is becoming old - she had an injury, was forced to take the lutz out, hadn't been practising it for 1,5 years, does it in practice now but was not secure enough to re-include it in competition. She has shown a proper outside edge lutz for 8 senior seasons, but this year, she just didn't need it and won without it fair and square. She used the system to her advantage and it paid off.

    I agree that she was prone to mistakes in competition and that's why she will and should be voted off now. All the other ladies were far more consistent than her.

    What bothers me though is the general negative vibe towards her on this board. I believe that she is a much better skater and athlete than most of the people here make her out to be.

    She has skated lots of memorable and great programs, performing lots of clean SPs especially at Worlds, most of them including either a 3lz3t, 3f3t or 3t3t. She performed flawless 3-3s, even 3-3-2s in a lot of her programs each season. She has skated consistently well at the European Championships each year, having been on the podium for the last seven years, winning the title 4 times. She reached the GPF four times and was always on the podium. She was a roller-coaster at Worlds and a complete disaster at both Olympics, yes, but won 4 World medals.

    It took her 10 seasons, several meltdowns and a lot of guts to get to where she is now, but it's not like she's not a champion.

    I know that and that's what I pointed out clearly in my original post. I was simply using it to underline what was missing in Carolina's career, and that was the ability to control her nerves, that's all.

    See, that's the vibe I described above. She finally won in a weak field, without difficult jumps. That makes it sound as if her World title is just a joke. She competed against this season's best skaters, had to skate well when it mattered and delivered when it counted. Just like all the other former Champs did when they won their titles.

    Respect for an athlete can't and shouldn't only be based on someone's competitive history or record, the amount of medals someone won or how consistently well someone performed in competition.

    I respect her enormously for her love for the sport, her persistence and for the fact that she never gave up. After what she has been through during and after the Turin Olympics, when the whole country expected her to win a medal and she failed - how the media and the public bashed her to a point when she didn't seem to be able to recover. Yet she came back strong and won her first European title after that. Then again after LA 2009 and Vancouver 2010, when she was publicly insulted by a lot of people, including the president of the Italian Olympic committee, and written off by the majority of people. Yet again, she somehow manages to continue and comes back to win her World Title. This girl has been through some horrible phases but always kept her love for the sport alive. It must have been incredibly hard for her but she didn't let herself be ruined by what was happening around her. And for that imo she deserves my respect.
  34. duane

    duane New Member

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    :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
  35. casken

    casken Well-Known Member

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    Well Kostner really cleaned up her crossover technique over the years whereas Lu Chen was doing crossovers with her upper body bobbing all over the place right up to her retirement.

    Kostner can also get more push to the blade, and can hold a deeper edge for longer. Compare any spiral Chen ever did to Kostner's from this year.
  36. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

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    Lets be honest though how much easier is it for someone like Kostner who never has to worry about making a World or Olympic team since she has virtually no competiton in her home country. I bet she doesn't even have to skate at her Nationals to qualify for the Italian team.
  37. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Lets compare Chen's best to Kostner's (thus far) best:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCRaoNfU0r8
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONViuMXi2nE

    Chen is still better. So even the "Kostner at her best" doesnt help her compared to Chen, if we also assume Chen at her best.


    Needless to say Chen, the much more consistent skater delivered a much higher average or consistent level performance too:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bsGN2TCDM8 1992 Olympics LP
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNMp2bylAhY 1993 Worlds LP
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53D2gjrmDnU 1994 Olympics LP
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzUzMOdtqNg&feature=related 1995 Worlds LP
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zN_Y-gza-N8&feature=related 1998 Olympics LP

    Apart from the fluke of 1997 Worlds under crazy circumstances the girl didnt even know how to have a bad skate at a big event, in stark contrast to Kostner. Even if it might have been right based on the competitions one by one (some would say it isnt) it is a real shame she only won 1 global title. Especialy when you compare to Kostner who manages only 1 decent performance ever at a World or Olympic event and it nets her the same number.
  38. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure this opinion is true to you personally. However, please don't ever press a gun to my head because I will die. I couln't tell you one single thing about any of her imo forgetable programs. Nothing. Nada. :shuffle:
  39. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    Finally, some logic in your post.

    Different people respect different things. Here we are talking about world/Olympic champions. It does not have a lot to do with personal things like facing criticism, or whatever else you use for respecting her. I do respect persistence, but there are plenty of other skaters that have overcome adversity- some of them much tougher situations. Carolina could stick around for years and years because no one else could represent her country. The best they had was Fontana, who was never a medal contender, even in a GP. I say Carolina had it real easy, but that aside, judging from the on-ice performance, she should have been eliminated in the previous round. I remember how many really bad performances she has had. It's only recently that she has started skating relatively clean, and that's only after she stopped doing the lutz and the flip.
  40. jiggs

    jiggs Well-Known Member

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    Well then maybe it's time for you to double check & take a proper look at some of her programs again :) Like her Worlds SPs from 2003, 2004, 2005, 2007 or 2008. Or her Worlds FPs from 2005, 2010, 2011 & 2012. Not to mention her signature pieces to Shostakovich or Mozart this year.

    Again, I want to say that I can see why Carolina is being voted off now. I still think though that a lot of people here make her look far worse than she actually is.