Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by SamuraiK, Jul 7, 2012.
6.0 vs IJS, apples and oranges
Yes, exactly. I agree
Anyway why are you comparing a 6.0 choreographed program to COP?
Use Bolero and we have a discussion.Somehow, with that very boring program, Kwan ended up third in the LP behind Irina and Sasha. Her short program was great that year-Sparticus. I think that was also third right?
Sorry. No clue wtf you're talking about.
I was just poking fun, of course. (This poll isn't that serious, just a fun game for the off season!) But I did always find that section to be a total WTF moment. Irina pumps a fist with one hand, presses her thumb to her face with her fingers extended on the other as she rounds the corner. I never saw anything quite that silly again until Rachael Flatt tried to dance her way down Bourbon St.
I raise you a Leonova chicken spiral
I am committed to these off-season game threads. Nothing, not even my Best Ladies' Double Axels Poll, has more importance for me.
The only World or Olympic program from Irina that ever brought out any type of emotion from me was her 2005 worlds long program. With everything she had been through with her illness, making her comeback, skating in her home country, and skating the way she did...it made me tear up. Her best moment of her career, IMO. I was very happy for her that she won, and it helped my disappointment for Michelle not making the podium for her 10th consecutive year. I was hoping she could pull it off.
It was a nice moment in figure skating history.
I agree with berthes; you need to talk to some different people. Michelle's programs were the strongest from 1996 up until 2001. SOBS was a great program but it didn't have the drama that some of her previous programs had. If you don't like Dream of Desdemona...I'd like to say there's something seriously wrong with you but I won't b/c people are entitled to their opinions. My opinion is you're crazy if you didn't like it, but to each his own.
I wasn't a huge fan of Michelle's Scheherazade though it was a nice program. Her post SLC programs were nowhere near as well-developed choreographically, but the performances were some of her best. The ease and emotion of Aranjuez and the power of Tosca make them stand out even though they weren't as strong in terms of choreography. Past SLC, I really felt like Michelle was biding her time waiting on Torino to roll around. She didn't want to drop out of competing but she didn't want to go all-out either, so there was less effort put forth during those years.
Her first version of Bolero was pretty good but by the time she made it to nationals and worlds that year, it'd been stripped down to basically nothing. I don't like that one at all...it's the only one of her LPs I say "pass" to. Spartacus OTOH was very nice; great utilization of the music.
Joannie's Aranjuez was great but it is very tough to compare an IJS tailored program to a 6.0 program b/c the set of rules behind them are extremely different thus the requirements are different. Undoubtedly Joannie's was harder b/c of all of the transitions, footwork, etc. but then again it had to be. Even though Michelle's version wasn't as complicated b/c it was created under a different set of criteria, it was still a nicely done program that was skated perfectly several times. Sure, there could have been more transitions and intricacies in the choreography but under the system it did its job well.
I just find it a bit pointless to compare 6.0 to IJS b/c it really is apples and oranges in terms of everything: jumps, spins, transitions, footwork, etc. Unlike IJS, there was no set value under 6.0...there were minimum requirements (ex: rotations in a spin as opposed to rotations and positions) but past that the system was open to interpretation by the skaters whereas under IJS, skaters have to adhere to a strict set of guidelines in order to gain credit. I just find it tough to compare them...
Don't forget the kisses and hip wiggles...
Of course the difficulty of choreography/program should count but when we are talking about "champions," I think the more proper reasoning would be to see the dominance and influence on skating, the sport itself, and on audience, you. That simple. Just my opinion.
I will never forget them!
Maybe this is more for the confessions thread, but I like the perk in Leonova's prgrammes, and I really liked the pirates of the caribbean programme, hammy it was I like her attempts to pretend to be a pirate more than 50% of the rest of the field who are attempting to pretend to be ballerinas.
One thing the group of ladies left have going for them - none of them have done the attempt to be a ballerina on the ice, and for that they all get a massive bonus.
That does make the most sense but I doubt if people will look at it that way. This poll is a clusterf*ck in terms of what criteria are being used to determine their votes b/c the definition of "weakest champion" is pretty broad.
I'm trying to use a combination of (A) achievements, consistency and impact as well as (B) the technical and artistic abilities. I'd say A should weigh a bit heavier than B (60/40) just b/c what matters most (IMO) is what the skater was able to accomplish given what they had. You could be capable of every jump and spin on the planet but if you can't deliver it counts for nothing...
Others are weighing only the technical side, some just the artistic, some are voting for skaters they just don't like...
Exactly. But people have their opinions and do have full right to them. Plus, this is a skating board
You've got quite reasonable criteria. I might start using your strategy since it's getting harder and harder to decide for me. In my case it was by looking at a skater's dominance and influence and it's been easy until this round. Now, the remaining three ladies need and deserve more articulate criteria.
i took an instant dislike to it. Only a long time after could I appreciate it at all. Her nats lp is clean and performed strong, but choreo wise, I really prefer her gwg debut of it. It was really the best laid out, even if she didn't skate it clean here.
even the bolero debut was pretty butt. The whole thing just seemed like a bad idea. I actually think that by this time Kwan was too famous to talk plainly to. The one guy who could get away with it, she fired in 01. Her next two coaches. Basically both said they just kinda hold back and offer freindly advice when needed. She needed a real coach IMO. Only poor dick button had the balls to call it out as crap, and then got flamed as senile!
i agree its aples and oranges, but thats not what i was refering to before. Plenty of cop programs are empty. Plushy in Torino was packed solid w choreo? I don't think so. I also don't see irina's Spanish lp from that year as choreo heavy either. The cluttered look that some of wilsons programs have, like joannie's is not a cop requirement. I remember when Kwan fans were gushing over her because her programs reminded them of taj and Salome and other Kwan 6.0 programs.
and do we really haveta get started on florant's choreo!?!?
Anyone who watches Salome and this crap and still insists that all 6.0 programs are empty and all cop programs are masterpieces of intricate choreo, needs their head examined.
EYS. Kwan's programs were usually stripped down (TRV) / re-arranged (SOTBS, Schez) by Nationals / Worlds but at least everything would gel by then and the timing would be sorted out. Aranjuez and Tosca had little choreographic content but she would at least find a way to maximise the impact of those programs.
Bolero was the sole exception. By Nationals and even Worlds, the elements were still messy, the layout was un-clever, and the timing was still not right. The Worlds version looked more like a debut than the real debut did. Nothing was right with that program, whichever version was in question.
It is a pity that this was her final long program.
I try to pretend Bolero never happened.
I never minded the simplicity of the choreography of other programs.. I considered it less is more, much like her Ver a Wang costumes.
I don't understand, what never happened? I'm sure I have no idea what you're talking about....
Yes, Kwan retired after a satisfying bronze medal win in 2004... The End.
Agree, Michelle effectively retired in 2004. In 2005 , USFS replaced her with Imelda Marcos. They sent Imelda because she 'renounced' her eligibility in the her country of origin, The Phillipines, but waited the pre-requisite number of years to represent the U.S. Her many years of dominance and preserverence 'dictated' a shot at the World title.
As much as I'd love to erase all memory of not only Bolero, but that hideous gold one-shouldered monstrosity she wore, I still contend that the 05 season held one and only one goal for Kwan: get that record tying nat title! She seemed surprising happy with the results of what for most skaters would be a disappointing season. I think it's because she reached all of her personal goals for that season.
I'd actually be just fine with a post 02 worlds retirement, but I have to admit to an actual anticipation to "Battle of the Totentanzes" in Torino. 06 has to have been one of the most Oly in History. ZZZzzzzzzz
I guess in hindsight Kwan should have taken the 2004 and 2005 season off for surgery and recovery. Who knows what could have happened in 2006 with a truly physically healthy Kwan (at least the Kwan that was healthier than 2004 and 2005).
My God, you guys, it's a summer poll for funsies. "More articulate criteria"? It's an OFF-SEASON POLL. Try not taking it so damned seriously.
This is the final off-season before December 21, 2012. It matters.
Judging Kwan by 2005 (especially by her performance at Worlds that year) is like judging Slutskaya by her 2004 Worlds skate ... neither lady was physically capable of skating "up to her usual standard". That both even showed up to Worlds, despite injury or illness, is a tribute to their courage and competitiveness. That they placed respectably is a tribute to their strength of mind.
Not really. Irina was in much worse situation at 2004 Worlds. She was struggling with life-threatening illness all season and didn't skate even at one competition. Michelle didn't have such serious health problem that would have prevented her from skating. Despite hip issues she was normally skating, teraining, practicing all the triples apart from the loop. And she skated at three competitions prior to 2005 Worlds.
I think the point is that Michelle was not in top shape, physically, due to her injury. She actually was not skating "normally" for her. That worlds was probably her wost worlds showing ever even with her beautiful short program. Her QR was disastrous, and her LP was very below mediocre for her typical standard. But even with all that going on, she was still third in the LP and I think less than a point away from the bronze.
I wish we could have seen what a tip top no injury Michelle could have done under COP.
Well, if her body didn't betray her in 2006 we would have seen her skating to TAT's Bells of Moscow I believe (Am I right? I'm not 100% sure, but wasn't Michelle planning on skating to the exact same Totentanz as Irina and then Bells for the LP?)... I'm trying to imagine Michelle slapping herself in the face in angst.
You are not the only one. Pirate of the Caribbean is truthful to its origins in Pantomine and children's theatrics, so Alena's exaggerated performance are actually perfectly warranted. I thought she did great! Experiencing her performance is like drinking PopFizz jam packed full of artificial colours and flavourings, you may feel buzzed while watching it even if you will regret it an hour later after the sugar wear off. This program is Morozov at his best, who seems incapable of subtlety anyway and like to hide behind these big themes that he superficially renders. It works well when he get committed performers like Alena. Alena's LP on the other hand was just crazy bad, technical content aside.
I generally dislike any typical ladies program that are too safe, generic wanting to be too lady like as if they are competing in a debutante ball.... mostly Zzzzz! That is why I am very curious to check out Akiko's Kill Bill. Hope it won't be a Kill Bill in a yellow ballerina dress going on about looking pretty and full of happy smiles, that would disastrous! Though certain ballerina appreciation crowd will probably like it!
I liked it, too. I saw it in person at Skate Canada and I really felt that it fit her..liked the costume, sloppy hair and all. It all worked.
OTOH, can't stand when she does serious..she comes across as an Irina redux.