Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sugar, Dec 5, 2012.
Lol. Just be serious about the changes the isu made. All the changes were all big coincidence. Lol .
Give me a break. Just read lala again. It's not all about quads but they must be a part of the jumps or it is not a complete performance at all.
The ISU changes rules every year. I think *you* are the one who needs to "be serious", or at least take the tinfoil hat off long enough to think rationally and not spout ridiculous conspiracy theories.
Do you know what the rule and point value changes were? You can't see the direction or theme of them? you can't still believe that all the changes they made were not influenced by the 2010 Olympics! Raise value of quads and eliminate leveled step sequences in sp and lp. Every was just coincidence and the fact that more quads are done is just coincidence. Nothing to do with the rule changes which were not influenced by the 2010 olympics.
A controversy was when the ISU changed the rules before 2005-6 season to disallow a repeat of the same triple jump in the Pairs FS, which gave a significant advantage to Totmianina/Marinin, who had 3T and 3S, and a significant disadvantage to Shen/Zhao, who did not. You may recall that Zhao snapped an Achilles tendon trying to re-learn another triple. This was against the practice in other sports, like gymnastics, to make make changes after the Olympics.
In the 2007-2010 Olympic cycle,
2007 World Championships, 4T worth 9pts:
Podium: 3:0: Joubert, Takahashi, Lambiel.
SP: 3:12. Joubert (#1, combo), Lysacek (#5, combo attempt), and Ponsero (#12).
FS: 6:12. Each of the Top 5, plus Preaubert (11) landed them, less dire for quad-lovers. (Buttle  under-rotated his.)
2008 World Championships, 4T worth 9 points.
Podium: 2:3 attempted, 1:3 landed: Gold (Buttle) quadless, silver (Joubert) with landed quad, bronze (Weir) with under-rotated (downgraded to 3T) quad.
"No quad" criticism starts to ramp up, especially when the quadless Buttle beat Joubert in the FS.
SP: 2:12. Lambiel (4) and Joubert (5) attempted quads. (You have to go to #14 Abbott to find another attempt.)
FS: 5:12 Joubert (2), Voronov (4), Takahashi (6), Lambiel (7), and Abbott (10) attempted them. Weir (5) underrotated his attempt.
At the 2009 World Championships. Value of quad raised .8, or 9% to 9.8
Podium 1:3: Neither the gold (Lysacek) nor silver (Chan) medalist attempted a quad. Only Joubert (bronze) attempted quads.
"No quad" criticism picks up, since two of the three medalists didn't even attempts a quad, which, at least, Weir did in 2008
SP: 4:12. Joubert (1), Verner (4), Voronov (9), and Ponsero (11)
FS 4:12. Joubert (3), Verner (4), Oda (8), and Lutai (9) attempted quads.
2010 World Championships, 4T worth 9.8.
Podium: 2:3 attempted, 1:3 landed. Takahashi under-rotated, Chan, no, Joubert, yes.
SP: 3:12. Joubert (3), Van der Perren (10), and Voronov (11)
FS: 7:12. Joubert (4), 6-10 (Abbott, Schultheiss, Reynolds [2 different quads with +GOE], Van der Perren, Fernandez) and Kozuka (12). Takahashi under-rotated a 4F attempt and received the downgrade penalty.
Leading up to the 2010 Olympics, there was vocal criticism that Men were not doing enough quads, or at least that the ones that were winning medals weren't doing enough quads, with a low of medalist attempts in 2009, and it started to be vocal before Plushenko's return comeback crossed the mind of his new wife. (Even afterwards, there was concern his body wouldn't hold up, however hard he worked or as much as he wanted it.) After the Olympics, the value of the quad was raised by .5 (5%) to 10.3, but the under-rotation penalty was still in effect. This increase was less in point and percentage value than the increase between 2007-8 and 2008-9.
2011 World Championships, 4T worth 10.3
Podium 3:3: Chan, Kozuka, Gachinski, all with quads.
SP: 6:12. Chan (1), Oda (2), Gachinski (4), Verner (8), Joubert (9), and Bradley (12) attempted quads.
FS: 7:12. Chan (1), Kozuka (2), Gachinski (3), Joubert (4), Brezina (5, 2 different quads), Fernandez (11, 2 different quads), Kozuka (12) landed quads; Takahashi (6) popped his attempt. In other words, no change in the number of men who attempted and landed quads in the FS from 2010.
2012 World Championships, 4T worth 10.3, but under-rotation penalty was changed (from rotation downgrade to 70% of the base value for downgrades up to a half revolution, for quads, a significant increase in value, 7.2 vs. 4).
Podium 3:3: Chan, Takahashi, Hanyu, all with quads.
SP: 8:12. The Top 7 skaters had quads in the SP, as well as 12th-place Reynolds.
FS: 11:12. All but #9 Contesti had at least a quad in the FS.
Perhaps adding .5 to the base of the quad after the Olympic season, like a responsible sport would do, was the tipping point for quad attempts in the SP; the jump in attempts in the FS appears after the change in under-rotation penalties, which, of course, applies to all jumps with at least two rotations, as well as a boost (33%) in the number of skaters who attempted them in the SP. I don't remember Plushenko saying anything about the under-rotation penalty. The ISU seems to have figured out that one on their own.
Perhaps it was the change in value, or perhaps it was because in 2011 that Chan got his quad that there was an increase in quad attempts, because to be competitive with him, the others had to have them, too. That he picked up where he left off after a Fall 2009 injury and illness that stymied his training shouldn't be much of a surprise.
That tinfoil hat must really be hurting....
Excellent post, kwanfan1818. You illustrate that the quad was less important during the 2007-2011 period than it had been previously.
Technical standards for a field go up and down, they do not maintain a consistent trajectory. When the standards go down, skater will always raise them to gain advantage. In the best case scenario, the rest of the field will strive for a higher standard as well. We've seen this with a quad, but less so with the 3-3 for women. Women keep sliding back to the 3-2 standard, but at least some at present are pushing for the 3-3.
Euros are coming! If Plush with one/two quads beats Fernandez with two/three quads I'll . It will be epic!
I have read lala. The poster goes on and on and on about how Plushenko and apparently eveyone NOT in North America felt it was all about the winner having a QUAD. Winning without one was just terrible. However, thanks be to the "mighty Plushenko and his fans" (according to some) -- that boat had now been turned around and headed in the right direction. As was pointed out by kwanfan, the quad has steadily worked it's way back into competition with the help of raising it's worth and skaters learning how to land it -- and successfully -- in their programs. Just because lala continues to insist that the changes only occurred BECAUSE of the "outrage of some" regarding the outcome of the men's comp in the 2010 Olympics is -- well let's just say I am LMAO.
You know, I have really enjoyed watching Plushenko live. I don't hate or dislike the man since I don't actually know him, but if I listen to some of his ubers here, I sure could get soured on him. Which would be a pity cause I respect what he is trying to do. I may not think it's in his best interests but I can understand the sentiment of wishing to compete for your country when the Olympics are being held IN your country.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTknenEm59c&list=UU6COra4s1ZB6HuiT0-pJU-w&index=2 Figure Skating （ Men's） quad jump challenger 3olympics SP Montage
Transition was never used as judging criterion in the single event until the Vanc Olycs. It was not used in 2009 WC and Grand Prix Final.That's why it is so controversial! It is not ice dacing overall.The way TR was included in judging criterion is illegal. Because Lori Nichol is coaching P. Chan, taught ISU judges how to judge transition properly 2 months before the Olympic Games. It's an apparent illegal act. Besides, it's a quite abrupt decision to include TR two months before the Oly.
Make changes after the Oly ?
Fernadez was beaten despite he has two or three quads. But I'm sure Plush plans one quad combo and one single 4S in his LP
I wrote some facts. That has nothing to do with that I'm uber. Unfortunately, I can't influence the news, and many experts opinion.
Don't you know Plush? Let's go! Worth the effort!!
Actually that's not completely accurate Fernandez won the free program thanks to his three quads. It's his mistake in the short and his PCs that have cost him a medal and possible the win at GPF
I think you underestimate your ability as fan (let alone uber) to present perfectly objective facts in a totally subjective manner
That being said we ALL do that, to various degrees
I think it was about knowing him, interacting regularily with him on a personal level, working with him or being friend with him, and not about knowing him through the tv, press, books or even fan meetings or some online exchanges in social media
I follow several athletes in different sports, know all of their achievments by heart and have met some of them several times - I still wouldn't dare to pretend knowing any of them
Of course, of course...you are so accurate...
-Fernandez was beaten, he wasn't on podium..but yes, he won the LP
-Maybe certain extent you are right, every fans are biased. But I don't understand what are bias in those facts, that in Europe in the news said Plush was robbed, or many experts supported him?
- Hm. I didn't say that I perfectly know Plush, or I'm his friend, but I read his biographic novel, I follow him every day, I know the great news, and also the bad news on him. I know the bad opinions of him and the uncomfortable articles. That's enough. And he never disappoints me, he is a real man, sincere and unique, and he is one of the greatest and bravest athletes ever. I think, you don't know how much joy to be a fan of him.
TR has been part of the new judging system since 2003. The ISU had held many seminars over the years leading up to 2010 on the proper marking of components, including TR, some of them led by Joe Inman, who, before the Olympics, reiterated the requirements of the written criteria, i.e., to warrant high TR marks, singles skaters had to show transitions of "variety, difficulty, intricacy, quality" for the vast majority (80+%) of the program.
Don't let the truth get in the way of a perfectly good delusion.
Well yes, I had to point it out for accuracy's sake - and because, as you know by now, I love to be annoying that way
I still love you though - even if you're annoyed at me right now
Other, more knowledgable (and all around better I suspect ) people than me have tried to explain that point previously. If they failed, I don't see how I could succeed.....
The only thing I'll add is, as wonderful an athlete Plushenko is, the world doesn't begin, end and/ or revolve around him
Sorry, what I wrote might have come across a bit wrong
When I said "I think it was about knowing him, interacting regularily with him on a personal level, working with him or being friend with him", I should really have written "I think professordeb meant it was about knowing him...." because I was reacting to her statement "I don't know him" and your reply "You don't know Plush? Let's go, worth the effort"
You sounded like you invited her to read/ watch videos about him, but I think professordeb implied she doesn't know him personally which means she couldn't judge him as a person one way or another (professordeb - feel free to come kick my ass if I put the wrong words in your mouth ) and that's something no amount and assiduity of fan following can make up for I feel
To be fair, I don't even want to know the persons I admire as athletes (or in any other capacity) personally most of the time - although I admit there are a handful I'd really love to interview/ discuss with because they seem from the outside like interesting people
I know, I'm not a good fan
Sorry, just wanted to highlight this sentence for its sheer epicness
PS: it also vaguely sounds like a cult. Which is vaguely frightning too. Just saying....
The idea of if someone has more quads than someone else than the person with more quads deserves to win is wrong. I do not think of winning as most quads is best and should win. The role of spins and steps and PCS is very important. If you believe that quads should be a part of mens skating it is not that you only care about quads. That is so dumb and lysacek defender thinking and what people who hate plushenko say about all the people who wrote about how winners should do quads. They should do them it's not most quads win it is about the skaters are all maxing their potential with jumps. The anti lysacek revisions to COP are obvious! And it's not all coincidental that Chan started doing quads after the rule changes either!
I'm not sure that this is even worth responding to, but what the heck.
- "I do not think of winning as most quads is best and should win." This from someone who went to the trouble of visiting a number of Internet message boards specifically to make posts saying that Lysacek shouldn't have won because he didn't have a quad.
- "lysacek defender thinking and what people who hate plushenko say about all the people who wrote about how winners should do quads". Not agreeing that quads are what define winners is not the same as being a Lysacek defender, or about hating Plushenko for that matter either.
- "The anti-lysacek revisions to COP are obvious". In your conspiracy theory, maybe.
The first change to the value of the quad (from 9 to 9.8) came in the 2008-9 season, the year Lysacek won his first WC and Chan won his first WC medal., both sans quad.
Chan already attempted his first quad in the summer of 2009 (Liberty?) but became injured and ill a couple od months later, which put a wrench into his season. He had every intention of putting it back in as soon as he could, if for no other reason that he could drop the 3a combo, with which he struggled repeatedly. There's a common misperception that because Chan said that there was more to figure-skating than quads that he had no intention of adding one, but after his Olympic season plan was derailed, he went back to it, adding more diificulty incrementally.
The quad was raised by .5 for the 2010-11 season. You'd think from all of the claims about how the ISU succombed to Plushenko's higher wisdom and the shame of an Olympic champion without a quad that they'd have changed the value by a significant amount, but it didn't even equal the earlier increase, and it was only a little over half the earlier increase percentage-wise.
My goodess....I am off the board more or less for a few months, and when I come back, you all are STILL talking about Plushy, Evan, and quads. And the same ole people yammering away about what happened in 2010. It's nice to have something in this world to depend on.
I do not wish to kick your ass cause you are spot on with the correct interpretation of what I meant about not knowing Plushenko. I knew that I meant it as "not knowing him personally" but apparently I did not make that very clear. Like you, I don't really wish to know most of the skaters PERSONALLY (although there are a couple of people with whom I would love to sit and have a chat).
And I also agree that some may believe the world revolves around Plushenko -- I am apparently not of that world nor would I choose to be in it. I will leave that to lala and others.
Ahhhh, a voice with reasoning skills. Too bad others don't recognize it
Yes, I know. I talked about the SP.
I've decided what the signal will be for the end of the world - when this argument stops happening.
I love Plushy too. I too believe he should have won in Vancouver. But COME ON, it was three years ago, HE'S over it, can't we get over it? Please?
Guess what? TR applied to the short program too.
If Plushy deserved to win Olys simply because of quad, then Fernando deserved to win GPF.
Well, you annoy me too. I was honest, But I know I'm not the only one who follows her/his favorite,etc. Look at the Twitter and Facebook pages. Everybody is biased in this forum, so you don't mock me,please I think, you are nervous, because I'm a fan of Plushenko. In this forum there are many bad mouth toward Plushenko. I 'm got tired of them, and I registered.
Look at this video, I am not among them...
I don't believe the world revolves around Plushenko, but I have many informations, what you don't know, because you don't interested in Plush.
OK. I will.
Plush is going to be a Euros?