Evgeni Plushenko won’t bother with figure skating Grand Prix season: DiManno

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sugar, Dec 5, 2012.

  1. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    I have this link, check it, read it!
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadruple_jump_controversy
    They collected many articles and opinions in this matter.
    And
    In germann tv
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGA5hRAP4Ts
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTofUH-03eg
    in mexican tv
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHMUUDDI4mA

    I know the Italian Sonia Bianchetti supported him in her commentating on that night. Stojko, Candeloro, Lu Chen, Pelissier, J Pons (FS commentators and experts), coach of Shen & Zhao (they said if the Olympic games would take place in Europe or Asia, Plush would have won.) etc. And do you say wasn't a big debate????

    In Skate America, 2011, the commentators said that 2010 was the only time, since the introduction of the quad, that the gold medalist did not do a quad. They said the point system was immediately changed "so that would never happen again."
    It's funny.. You deny the fact again, because you say wasn't controversial Evan's victory. Maybe in North-America wasn't, but in Europe and Asia was.

    But you know, I don't care of Vancouver right now, I not begun to talk about this. I said Plush and Mishin fighted, and they won, the male FS became more exciting and hard. This is development, progression.

    And his fans made many supporting montages, my favorites

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrR_Rpyh5uE
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qIovfoDkpE
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NutU5hkm8o

    I'm sure you don't read Plushy's thread, so look at his stage of preparation.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQkc1OSJIsc&list=UU-a5fJtjZNkc_7Bhj2qSEAw&index=24
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2012
  2. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    The champions lack of quad was controversial. It is not all controversy that plushenko lost because he did two quad triples. It's also not that a quad is like a triple. The entire physical dimension of the entire program is on a whole different level. It's what chan says now and what the first guy stojko talked about so much.
  3. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    Only in the minds of people who squawked endlessly about it.
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  4. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    Well it's in the rules of cop now
  5. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

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    There is not much solid analysis at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadruple_jump_controversy.

    The main point made is the same old same old 'program with the quad should have won'. Disagreement doesn't equal controversy.

    Plush wasn't the only disgruntled skater in Vancouver - Weir too claimed he was under-marked. There are complaints and criticisms of judges decisions all the time, especially during the Olympics. They don't = controversy.

    And criticism has to be taken with a grain of salt when it comes from Elvis Stoijko, who has always had a serious wuz-robbed issue and always claimed that the skaters with more quads should have won. He even thought Goebel should have beat Plushenko at one worlds because he landed three quads. And he even went so far as to claim he should have been in the top three in the SP in SLC.

    Ditto be wary of Bianchetti, who jumps at every possible opportunity to grind her axe about COP.

    This is an opinion but not an analysis. Taking the points value of the 4/3 into account and everything else, why should he have had a 4 to 5 point lead? And who is the 'they' Plush refers to? I rather doubt it was the judges themselves. They certainly didn't need to hold back marks - didn't do so for Shen and Zhao who skated first in the Pairs SP.

    Tarasova suggests the 4/3 should be worth more, and I actually agreed with that. But it wasn't at the time. Regardless of whether it was fair or not. It often wasn't fair when skaters won under 6.0 because of superior figures, but until figures were eliminated, those wins were arguably legitimate.

    Here is an explanation of Lysacek versus Plush LP scores:


    :lol::lol: Here's an attempt to stir up controversy from an obscure Russian source. No links to any evidence.


    :lol::lol: This from an obscure Russian source.


    Actually I was one of small group of fans who rooted for Plush over Yags. I was rooting for him in Vancouver and I just can't stand Lysacek (to the extent that I was overjoyed that he didn't manage to compete this season). I was very disappointed with his programs. His jumps were not strong like they had been in the past and his programs were empty in terms of PCS - he clearly hadn't adjusted to the new system.

    I saw the Men's LP live in Vancouver and remember thinking that if afterwards that if anything, Plush was under-marked. Although I did agree that the quad should have been worth more.

    Put it this way: given how much I dislike Lysacek I was an easy target for arguments that Plush should have won. But, no argument was given that convinced me, not at the time nor since.
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2012
  6. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    What's your standard of controversy? Pairs 2002 and nothing else? It was controversial. There's no arguing it wasn't controversial just because you don't agree with the basis of what made it controversial. Like "I don't care about quads so there was no controversy because quads aren't enough to cause controversy!" I don't get the standard your talking about. People opposed the win and didn't like it and so many rules were changed but it wasn't controversial because lysaceks medal wasn't taken away!
  7. yaya124

    yaya124 New Member

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    It is really meaningless to argue things happened almost 3 years ago. Men's figure skating changed dramatically since Vancouver, whether Plushenko played a part in it, it does not matter anymore. To his fans, he might contribute to the change of the quads value, to others, this might have nothing to do with him at all. No use to convince each other otherwise. So let both sides get over this page and move on.
  8. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    By "people" do you mean "yourself"? There were people who were just fine with the results, too.
    And unless you have evidence to show that the ISU specifically changed the rule because of Plushenko's win, then you can't claim that "many rules were changed" because of that one result.
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  9. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    I'm tired of this debate. You deny what is obvious:
    -Was discussion on this matter?
    -Many FS fans and experts supported Plush?
    -In many countries of Europe, told in the news that Plushenko was robbed?
    -Didn't like the quadless champion?
    -Was the ISU under the high pressure ?
    -They has changed the rules, immediately after the Olympic Games?
    -Need the quads to the victory right now?

    Which aren't that right? All true, have to put the story together. You can deny it here in these pages, but in real life you can't erase people's mind.

    About 2002. Goebel had 3 quad, but Plushy had the first 4-3-3 combo(not perfect, but good) in FS history, single quad, and 3A-half Lo-3F combo and so on. Plus fantastic performance. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LR1HHSWoto Goebel had ugly posture and he had lower presentation marks.
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  10. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

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    Well if men's skating is "ALL ABOUT QUADS" and everything else is just window dressing, then I would also have to agree that Goebel should have won over Plush cause you know, it's ALL ABOUT QUADS :D
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  11. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    Lol. Just be serious about the changes the isu made. All the changes were all big coincidence. Lol .
  12. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    Give me a break. Just read lala again. It's not all about quads but they must be a part of the jumps or it is not a complete performance at all.
  13. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    The ISU changes rules every year. I think *you* are the one who needs to "be serious", or at least take the tinfoil hat off long enough to think rationally and not spout ridiculous conspiracy theories.
  14. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    Do you know what the rule and point value changes were? You can't see the direction or theme of them? you can't still believe that all the changes they made were not influenced by the 2010 Olympics! Raise value of quads and eliminate leveled step sequences in sp and lp. Every was just coincidence and the fact that more quads are done is just coincidence. Nothing to do with the rule changes which were not influenced by the 2010 olympics.
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2012
  15. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    A controversy was when the ISU changed the rules before 2005-6 season to disallow a repeat of the same triple jump in the Pairs FS, which gave a significant advantage to Totmianina/Marinin, who had 3T and 3S, and a significant disadvantage to Shen/Zhao, who did not. You may recall that Zhao snapped an Achilles tendon trying to re-learn another triple. This was against the practice in other sports, like gymnastics, to make make changes after the Olympics.

    In the 2007-2010 Olympic cycle,

    2007 World Championships, 4T worth 9pts:
    • Podium: 3:0: Joubert, Takahashi, Lambiel.
    • SP: 3:12. Joubert (#1, combo), Lysacek (#5, combo attempt), and Ponsero (#12).
    • FS: 6:12. Each of the Top 5, plus Preaubert (11) landed them, less dire for quad-lovers. (Buttle [8] under-rotated his.)

    2008 World Championships, 4T worth 9 points.
    • Podium: 2:3 attempted, 1:3 landed: Gold (Buttle) quadless, silver (Joubert) with landed quad, bronze (Weir) with under-rotated (downgraded to 3T) quad.
    • "No quad" criticism starts to ramp up, especially when the quadless Buttle beat Joubert in the FS.​
    • SP: 2:12. Lambiel (4) and Joubert (5) attempted quads. (You have to go to #14 Abbott to find another attempt.)
    • FS: 5:12 Joubert (2), Voronov (4), Takahashi (6), Lambiel (7), and Abbott (10) attempted them. Weir (5) underrotated his attempt.

    At the 2009 World Championships. Value of quad raised .8, or 9% to 9.8
    • Podium 1:3: Neither the gold (Lysacek) nor silver (Chan) medalist attempted a quad. Only Joubert (bronze) attempted quads.
    • "No quad" criticism picks up, since two of the three medalists didn't even attempts a quad, which, at least, Weir did in 2008​
    • SP: 4:12. Joubert (1), Verner (4), Voronov (9), and Ponsero (11)
    • FS 4:12. Joubert (3), Verner (4), Oda (8), and Lutai (9) attempted quads.

    2010 World Championships, 4T worth 9.8.
    • Podium: 2:3 attempted, 1:3 landed. Takahashi under-rotated, Chan, no, Joubert, yes.
    • SP: 3:12. Joubert (3), Van der Perren (10), and Voronov (11)
    • FS: 7:12. Joubert (4), 6-10 (Abbott, Schultheiss, Reynolds [2 different quads with +GOE], Van der Perren, Fernandez) and Kozuka (12). Takahashi under-rotated a 4F attempt and received the downgrade penalty.

    Leading up to the 2010 Olympics, there was vocal criticism that Men were not doing enough quads, or at least that the ones that were winning medals weren't doing enough quads, with a low of medalist attempts in 2009, and it started to be vocal before Plushenko's return comeback crossed the mind of his new wife. (Even afterwards, there was concern his body wouldn't hold up, however hard he worked or as much as he wanted it.) After the Olympics, the value of the quad was raised by .5 (5%) to 10.3, but the under-rotation penalty was still in effect. This increase was less in point and percentage value than the increase between 2007-8 and 2008-9.

    2011 World Championships, 4T worth 10.3
    • Podium 3:3: Chan, Kozuka, Gachinski, all with quads.
    • SP: 6:12. Chan (1), Oda (2), Gachinski (4), Verner (8), Joubert (9), and Bradley (12) attempted quads.
    • FS: 7:12. Chan (1), Kozuka (2), Gachinski (3), Joubert (4), Brezina (5, 2 different quads), Fernandez (11, 2 different quads), Kozuka (12) landed quads; Takahashi (6) popped his attempt. In other words, no change in the number of men who attempted and landed quads in the FS from 2010.

    2012 World Championships, 4T worth 10.3, but under-rotation penalty was changed (from rotation downgrade to 70% of the base value for downgrades up to a half revolution, for quads, a significant increase in value, 7.2 vs. 4).
    • Podium 3:3: Chan, Takahashi, Hanyu, all with quads.
    • SP: 8:12. The Top 7 skaters had quads in the SP, as well as 12th-place Reynolds.
    • FS: 11:12. All but #9 Contesti had at least a quad in the FS.

    Perhaps adding .5 to the base of the quad after the Olympic season, like a responsible sport would do, was the tipping point for quad attempts in the SP; the jump in attempts in the FS appears after the change in under-rotation penalties, which, of course, applies to all jumps with at least two rotations, as well as a boost (33%) in the number of skaters who attempted them in the SP. I don't remember Plushenko saying anything about the under-rotation penalty. The ISU seems to have figured out that one on their own.

    Perhaps it was the change in value, or perhaps it was because in 2011 that Chan got his quad that there was an increase in quad attempts, because to be competitive with him, the others had to have them, too. That he picked up where he left off after a Fall 2009 injury and illness that stymied his training shouldn't be much of a surprise.
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  16. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    That tinfoil hat must really be hurting....
  17. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

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    Excellent post, kwanfan1818. You illustrate that the quad was less important during the 2007-2011 period than it had been previously.

    Good example.


    Technical standards for a field go up and down, they do not maintain a consistent trajectory. When the standards go down, skater will always raise them to gain advantage. In the best case scenario, the rest of the field will strive for a higher standard as well. We've seen this with a quad, but less so with the 3-3 for women. Women keep sliding back to the 3-2 standard, but at least some at present are pushing for the 3-3.
  18. ciocio

    ciocio New Member

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    Euros are coming! If Plush with one/two quads beats Fernandez with two/three quads I'll :lol::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:. It will be epic!:fan::D
  19. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

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    I have read lala. The poster goes on and on and on about how Plushenko and apparently eveyone NOT in North America felt it was all about the winner having a QUAD. Winning without one was just terrible. However, thanks be to the "mighty Plushenko and his fans" (according to some) -- that boat had now been turned around and headed in the right direction. As was pointed out by kwanfan, the quad has steadily worked it's way back into competition with the help of raising it's worth and skaters learning how to land it -- and successfully -- in their programs. Just because lala continues to insist that the changes only occurred BECAUSE of the "outrage of some" regarding the outcome of the men's comp in the 2010 Olympics is -- well let's just say I am LMAO.

    You know, I have really enjoyed watching Plushenko live. I don't hate or dislike the man since I don't actually know him, but if I listen to some of his ubers here, I sure could get soured on him. Which would be a pity cause I respect what he is trying to do. I may not think it's in his best interests but I can understand the sentiment of wishing to compete for your country when the Olympics are being held IN your country.
  20. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTknenEm59c&list=UU6COra4s1ZB6HuiT0-pJU-w&index=2 Figure Skating ( Men's) quad jump challenger 3olympics SP Montage

    Transition was never used as judging criterion in the single event until the Vanc Olycs. It was not used in 2009 WC and Grand Prix Final.That's why it is so controversial! It is not ice dacing overall.The way TR was included in judging criterion is illegal. Because Lori Nichol is coaching P. Chan, taught ISU judges how to judge transition properly 2 months before the Olympic Games. It's an apparent illegal act. Besides, it's a quite abrupt decision to include TR two months before the Oly.


    Make changes after the Oly ?:rolleyes:
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2012
  21. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    Fernadez was beaten despite he has two or three quads.:) But I'm sure Plush plans one quad combo and one single 4S in his LP:)

    I wrote some facts. That has nothing to do with that I'm uber.:plush: Unfortunately, I can't influence the news, and many experts opinion.

    Don't you know Plush?;) Let's go!:scream: Worth the effort!!:cheer2:
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2012
  22. rayhaneh

    rayhaneh New Member

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    Actually that's not completely accurate ;) Fernandez won the free program thanks to his three quads. It's his mistake in the short and his PCs that have cost him a medal and possible the win at GPF


    I think you underestimate your ability as fan (let alone uber) to present perfectly objective facts in a totally subjective manner :lol:

    That being said we ALL do that, to various degrees :)

    I think it was about knowing him, interacting regularily with him on a personal level, working with him or being friend with him, and not about knowing him through the tv, press, books or even fan meetings or some online exchanges in social media

    I follow several athletes in different sports, know all of their achievments by heart and have met some of them several times - I still wouldn't dare to pretend knowing any of them :lol:
  23. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    Of course, of course...you are so accurate...

    -Fernandez was beaten, he wasn't on podium..but yes, he won the LP
    -Maybe certain extent you are right, every fans are biased. But I don't understand what are bias in those facts, that in Europe in the news said Plush was robbed, or many experts supported him?
    - Hm. I didn't say that I perfectly know Plush, or I'm his friend, but I read his biographic novel, I follow him every day, I know the great news, and also the bad news on him. I know the bad opinions of him and the uncomfortable articles. That's enough. And he never disappoints me, he is a real man, sincere and unique, and he is one of the greatest and bravest athletes ever. I think, you don't know how much joy to be a fan of him.
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2012
  24. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    TR has been part of the new judging system since 2003. The ISU had held many seminars over the years leading up to 2010 on the proper marking of components, including TR, some of them led by Joe Inman, who, before the Olympics, reiterated the requirements of the written criteria, i.e., to warrant high TR marks, singles skaters had to show transitions of "variety, difficulty, intricacy, quality" for the vast majority (80+%) of the program.
  25. Really

    Really No longer just a "well-known member" Yay!

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    Don't let the truth get in the way of a perfectly good delusion.
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  26. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    :lol:
  27. rayhaneh

    rayhaneh New Member

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    Well yes, I had to point it out for accuracy's sake - and because, as you know by now, I love to be annoying that way :D:p

    I still love you though - even if you're annoyed at me right now :D

    Other, more knowledgable (and all around better I suspect ;)) people than me have tried to explain that point previously. If they failed, I don't see how I could succeed.....

    The only thing I'll add is, as wonderful an athlete Plushenko is, the world doesn't begin, end and/ or revolve around him

    Sorry, what I wrote might have come across a bit wrong

    When I said "I think it was about knowing him, interacting regularily with him on a personal level, working with him or being friend with him", I should really have written "I think professordeb meant it was about knowing him...." because I was reacting to her statement "I don't know him" and your reply "You don't know Plush? Let's go, worth the effort"

    You sounded like you invited her to read/ watch videos about him, but I think professordeb implied she doesn't know him personally which means she couldn't judge him as a person one way or another (professordeb - feel free to come kick my ass if I put the wrong words in your mouth :lol:) and that's something no amount and assiduity of fan following can make up for I feel

    To be fair, I don't even want to know the persons I admire as athletes (or in any other capacity) personally most of the time - although I admit there are a handful I'd really love to interview/ discuss with because they seem from the outside like interesting people

    I know, I'm not a good fan :D

    Sorry, just wanted to highlight this sentence for its sheer epicness :lol:

    PS: it also vaguely sounds like a cult. Which is vaguely frightning too. Just saying....
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2012
  28. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    The idea of if someone has more quads than someone else than the person with more quads deserves to win is wrong. I do not think of winning as most quads is best and should win. The role of spins and steps and PCS is very important. If you believe that quads should be a part of mens skating it is not that you only care about quads. That is so dumb and lysacek defender thinking and what people who hate plushenko say about all the people who wrote about how winners should do quads. They should do them it's not most quads win it is about the skaters are all maxing their potential with jumps. The anti lysacek revisions to COP are obvious! And it's not all coincidental that Chan started doing quads after the rule changes either!
  29. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure that this is even worth responding to, but what the heck.

    - "I do not think of winning as most quads is best and should win." This from someone who went to the trouble of visiting a number of Internet message boards specifically to make posts saying that Lysacek shouldn't have won because he didn't have a quad.

    - "lysacek defender thinking and what people who hate plushenko say about all the people who wrote about how winners should do quads". Not agreeing that quads are what define winners is not the same as being a Lysacek defender, or about hating Plushenko for that matter either.

    - "The anti-lysacek revisions to COP are obvious". In your conspiracy theory, maybe.
  30. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    The first change to the value of the quad (from 9 to 9.8) came in the 2008-9 season, the year Lysacek won his first WC and Chan won his first WC medal., both sans quad.

    Chan already attempted his first quad in the summer of 2009 (Liberty?) but became injured and ill a couple od months later, which put a wrench into his season. He had every intention of putting it back in as soon as he could, if for no other reason that he could drop the 3a combo, with which he struggled repeatedly. There's a common misperception that because Chan said that there was more to figure-skating than quads that he had no intention of adding one, but after his Olympic season plan was derailed, he went back to it, adding more diificulty incrementally.

    The quad was raised by .5 for the 2010-11 season. You'd think from all of the claims about how the ISU succombed to Plushenko's higher wisdom and the shame of an Olympic champion without a quad that they'd have changed the value by a significant amount, but it didn't even equal the earlier increase, and it was only a little over half the earlier increase percentage-wise.
  31. Holley Calmes

    Holley Calmes Well-Known Member

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    My goodess....I am off the board more or less for a few months, and when I come back, you all are STILL talking about Plushy, Evan, and quads. And the same ole people yammering away about what happened in 2010. It's nice to have something in this world to depend on.
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  32. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

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    I do not wish to kick your ass cause you are spot on with the correct interpretation of what I meant about not knowing Plushenko. I knew that I meant it as "not knowing him personally" but apparently I did not make that very clear. Like you, I don't really wish to know most of the skaters PERSONALLY (although there are a couple of people with whom I would love to sit and have a chat).

    And I also agree that some may believe the world revolves around Plushenko -- I am apparently not of that world nor would I choose to be in it. I will leave that to lala and others.
  33. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

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    Ahhhh, a voice with reasoning skills. Too bad others don't recognize it :D
  34. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I know. I talked about the SP.
  35. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    I've decided what the signal will be for the end of the world - when this argument stops happening.

    I love Plushy too. I too believe he should have won in Vancouver. But COME ON, it was three years ago, HE'S over it, can't we get over it? Please?
  36. Really

    Really No longer just a "well-known member" Yay!

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    Guess what? TR applied to the short program too.
  37. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    If Plushy deserved to win Olys simply because of quad, then Fernando deserved to win GPF.
  38. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    Well, you annoy me too. I was honest, But I know I'm not the only one who follows her/his favorite,etc. Look at the Twitter and Facebook pages. Everybody is biased in this forum, so you don't mock me,please I think, you are nervous, because I'm a fan of Plushenko. In this forum there are many bad mouth toward Plushenko. I 'm got tired of them, and I registered.
    Look at this video, I am not among them...:)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhgCIV4PY8c
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOL6hpTlqvQ&list=FLiq7gYWVwyinmFDs286ioww&index=381



    I don't believe the world revolves around Plushenko, but I have many informations, what you don't know, because you don't interested in Plush.
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2012
  39. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2012
    Messages:
    1,959
    OK. I will.
  40. Iceman

    Iceman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2006
    Messages:
    2,480
    Plush is going to be a Euros?