Evgeni Plushenko won’t bother with figure skating Grand Prix season: DiManno

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sugar, Dec 5, 2012.

  1. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    Plushenko didn't intended to mock Chan himself, isn't the same thing. After Vancouver was a big controversy about male skating, and it seems Mishin and Plush won it. Rosie DiManno was disgusting, no doubt, you don't speak about Vancouver, please...
     
  2. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

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    Won what? And won how?

    Men's skating wasn't all about the quads in 2010 and still isn't. The men's field in Vancouver was particularly weak. Plushenko had only one quad and skated a mediocre empty program. Lycasek was the rightful winner, and I say that even though I really don't care for him.

    The top level of the men's field has improved tremendously since then in terms of both artistic levels and quads. If Chan, Fernadez and the top three Japanese skate their best in Sochi, Plush will have a hard time getting on the podium. Not to discredit him in any way though - having a good skate and landing a quad in his fourth Olympics will hopefully be enough. I wouldn't want to see him go out with a whimper, like Stojko.
     
  3. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

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    Exactly what did Mishin win? If he had his way Mens skating would be nothing but a jumping contest. It sure showed judging by Plushenko's programs from Vancouver. Has Mishin ever heard the word transitions?
     
  4. ciocio

    ciocio Active Member

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    When did Mishin say he wanted a jump contest? :confused: Is there a system in place to score such a thing?
     
  5. yaya124

    yaya124 New Member

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    Aren't you tired of arguing about this? I mean after Vancouver the value for quads increased, that is truth. You can argue whether the result of Vancouver leading to this change. Besides, now all high level men skaters can jump multiple quads, it is a good thing, isn't it?

    Of course you can say that because Chan starts to jump quads so now all senior men need quads. Happy? Jeez.
     
  6. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    :confused: Why would it have anything to do with Chan, when Chan wasn't landing quads consistently at Vancouver?

    I think it's more people saying that Plushenko and/or Mishin single handedly got the COP changed because of his silver medal which is complete BS, there are a number of skaters and coaches who complained about the value of quads as has already been mentioned up thread, and when the rule changes were proposed, there was a whole document with loads of changes set out with backing from different federations, some of which were brought in and some of them weren't.

    Stop pedaling the idea that Plushenko saved the earth and cured cancer with his silver medal in Vancouver and you might get people to stop reacting.
     
  7. Jenny

    Jenny From the Bloc

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    I really wish people would stop linking to this hack of a "journalist's" columns. The more it gets linked, the more hits it gets, the better numbers she has and her paper will continue to assign her to skating.

    I'm not even going to read it. She's shown us far, far too many times over the years that she does not understand or appreciate figure skating, its skaters or fans. Unfortunately, she has space in a high circulation newspaper and nowadays online as well, and she makes all of figure skating look bad. A detriment to the sport, and a detriment to her profession.
     
  8. Louis

    Louis Tinami 2012

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    I opened this thread only because I saw your name as the most recent poster :lol:, and I have to say I COULD NOT AGREE MORE! :respec: I know "me too" posts are discouraged, but Rosie has been trying to be the "shock jock" of skating for probably 15+ years. Her shtick isn't working any better now than it ever has. :lol:
     
  9. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    They won. I'm surprised because you don't see the connect. Lysacek's victory was very controversial, maybe you don't know this. But who are live in Europe, know in many European country Plushenko was the real winner. In the news, articles communicated these views. And was a great debate among experts. The the ISU was great under pressure, because Plushenko's fans wanted to the revision of results and they wrote to directly to the ISU and IOC. This was the reason why Rogge spoke a few days after the competiton. And many figure skating fans asked the ISU that raise the value of the quad, you know. Of course, the ISU has not changed the result, but on the next meeting has changed the rules. And after this change, Chan begun to learn the quad.
    Transition, transition, aren't the most important part of figure skating, I think.
    Check it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadruple_jump_controversy
    and this, and it wasn't the only one
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbbfflDE4PE
    the Japanese author wrote to under the video:

    I looked into the protocol of 2010 Olympic.
    I protest against all the unfair judges not only toward Plushenko but all the skaters.

    P.S. I'll send a document to IOC. Document is available in http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AUzBQlglX-z3ZGQ0bjJoNTVfMGM3dmRyN2My&hl=en
    Thank you for your seeing this video!

    Chan: “I kind of took the side that if you did a clean program without the quad you can still win and you can be comfortable,”
    “But to be honest, it’s a whole different level to be doing quads, a whole different level of confidence.”
    “I understand now. I’m on the other side of the wall. It’s a level of excitement I’m talking about. You just elevate your program to that level of excitement where everyone else who has done quads, like Plushenko, has that excitement."

    Plushenko said, they like this figure skating, this is progress
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2012
  10. ItalianFan

    ItalianFan Member

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    After today's GPF I think Chan had better start worrying about Hanyu in 2014 and not Plushy---much as I love him and hope he does make a good showing.
     
  11. Glacier cat

    Glacier cat Member

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    Chan said the experience is important for OG. He learned it in 2010.
     
  12. screech

    screech Well-Known Member

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    The article says that Russia will have one male skater in Sochi. Isn't that still to be determined at Worlds?

    Actually, many Canadian fans prefer Russian skaters to skaters from the US, despite the fact that so many people think that Canada just blindly follows the USA in everything.

    There has always been a rivalry in many sports where many Canadians want anyone but USA to win. Heck at the world junior hockey championships in Canada, USA was playing I think Denmark or Finland, and the audience just kept going crazy for them, cheering loudly for them the entire time. Just because they weren't USA.

    Back to the topic at hand, who do you think would win in a bitter, opinionated snark-off? DiManno or Hersh?
     
  13. Carolla5501

    Carolla5501 Well-Known Member

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    They won? I was unaware there was an award for being the "biggest whiner about the outcome" but if there was are we sure they won? Weir whined even more IMHO.

    I don't recall them winnning anything. Seems like the winner was someone else LOL!

    However, if there is a competetion for attempting to win by not skating but talking about it a lot, Plushy is in there once again with Evan. Lots of talk, lots of fan claiming all kinds of stuff and probably not an outcome anyone will ever care about IMHO but...
     
  14. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    I can't believe people are seriously arguing against mishin and plushenko winning the quad argument and the direction men's skating took. Turning the sport into a jumping contest was never ever what plushenko or mishin were saying it is what defenders of Lysacek win said they wanted. They said a quad should be a part of men's skating and it is now and they won - end of story.

    And plushenko is reigning European and Russian champion so he win stuff within the year so whatever about plushenko being all talk.
     
  15. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    I can't believe, that a reasonable beings can't understand the arguments and repeats from same things:
    "Plushy is a whiner" :rolleyes: -he isn't, but was brave after the competiton
    "It is not a quad jump competition" :confused: - nobody said this stupid thing
    "The quad is not everything" :lol: -of course..
    But the facts are facts. Plushy had army of defenders, who supported him, not only fans, but experts, coaches, skaters. And the ISU has changed the rules, because of the big scandal and outrage. To deny this fact is something like that he isn't artistic, despite the fact he had more 6.0 like Michelle Kwan's.
     
  16. kittysk8ts

    kittysk8ts Member

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    Sorry, didn't mean to stir the pot. My recollection of the press conference was that Plushy was asked about Chan.....Plushy mentioned he had no quad and then mentioned with a sly smile that Mao Asada was doing 2 triple Axels in her OG programs.....He said "2 triple axels and triple jumps is ladies competition".
     
  17. Iceman

    Iceman Well-Known Member

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    Why has no woman done a quad since the one ando did years ago?:swoon:
     
  18. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

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    Do you have a link to a detailed and solid defense of why Plush should have won? Even one would be nice to read. By that, I mean comparing each and every element and analyzing their point value. Including PCS.

    Just because Plush landed a quad does not mean he should have won. The outrage at the time was about the champion's lack of a quad. There was concern that the men's field was regressing, and many piped in on that. But this doesn't make the result controversial.

    And if you feel that quad was worth too few points, that also doesn't make the result controversial.

    Perhaps you would like to present a detailed defense of this claim and explain why each and every skater was wrongly judged? Giving some examples of what rightful judging would have produced in terms of results would be good as well.
     
  19. Iceman

    Iceman Well-Known Member

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    Why is competing considered anymore stressful on his body than practicing---or is his practice schedule curtailed too.
     
  20. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

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    Thank you amd well said.
     
  21. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    I have this link, check it, read it!
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadruple_jump_controversy
    They collected many articles and opinions in this matter.
    And
    In germann tv
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGA5hRAP4Ts
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTofUH-03eg
    in mexican tv
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHMUUDDI4mA

    I know the Italian Sonia Bianchetti supported him in her commentating on that night. Stojko, Candeloro, Lu Chen, Pelissier, J Pons (FS commentators and experts), coach of Shen & Zhao (they said if the Olympic games would take place in Europe or Asia, Plush would have won.) etc. And do you say wasn't a big debate????

    In Skate America, 2011, the commentators said that 2010 was the only time, since the introduction of the quad, that the gold medalist did not do a quad. They said the point system was immediately changed "so that would never happen again."
    It's funny.. You deny the fact again, because you say wasn't controversial Evan's victory. Maybe in North-America wasn't, but in Europe and Asia was.

    But you know, I don't care of Vancouver right now, I not begun to talk about this. I said Plush and Mishin fighted, and they won, the male FS became more exciting and hard. This is development, progression.

    And his fans made many supporting montages, my favorites

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrR_Rpyh5uE
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qIovfoDkpE
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NutU5hkm8o

    I'm sure you don't read Plushy's thread, so look at his stage of preparation.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQkc1OSJIsc&list=UU-a5fJtjZNkc_7Bhj2qSEAw&index=24
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2012
  22. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    The champions lack of quad was controversial. It is not all controversy that plushenko lost because he did two quad triples. It's also not that a quad is like a triple. The entire physical dimension of the entire program is on a whole different level. It's what chan says now and what the first guy stojko talked about so much.
     
  23. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    Only in the minds of people who squawked endlessly about it.
     
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  24. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    Well it's in the rules of cop now
     
  25. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

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    There is not much solid analysis at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadruple_jump_controversy.

    The main point made is the same old same old 'program with the quad should have won'. Disagreement doesn't equal controversy.

    Plush wasn't the only disgruntled skater in Vancouver - Weir too claimed he was under-marked. There are complaints and criticisms of judges decisions all the time, especially during the Olympics. They don't = controversy.

    And criticism has to be taken with a grain of salt when it comes from Elvis Stoijko, who has always had a serious wuz-robbed issue and always claimed that the skaters with more quads should have won. He even thought Goebel should have beat Plushenko at one worlds because he landed three quads. And he even went so far as to claim he should have been in the top three in the SP in SLC.

    Ditto be wary of Bianchetti, who jumps at every possible opportunity to grind her axe about COP.

    This is an opinion but not an analysis. Taking the points value of the 4/3 into account and everything else, why should he have had a 4 to 5 point lead? And who is the 'they' Plush refers to? I rather doubt it was the judges themselves. They certainly didn't need to hold back marks - didn't do so for Shen and Zhao who skated first in the Pairs SP.

    Tarasova suggests the 4/3 should be worth more, and I actually agreed with that. But it wasn't at the time. Regardless of whether it was fair or not. It often wasn't fair when skaters won under 6.0 because of superior figures, but until figures were eliminated, those wins were arguably legitimate.

    Here is an explanation of Lysacek versus Plush LP scores:


    :lol::lol: Here's an attempt to stir up controversy from an obscure Russian source. No links to any evidence.


    :lol::lol: This from an obscure Russian source.


    Actually I was one of small group of fans who rooted for Plush over Yags. I was rooting for him in Vancouver and I just can't stand Lysacek (to the extent that I was overjoyed that he didn't manage to compete this season). I was very disappointed with his programs. His jumps were not strong like they had been in the past and his programs were empty in terms of PCS - he clearly hadn't adjusted to the new system.

    I saw the Men's LP live in Vancouver and remember thinking that if afterwards that if anything, Plush was under-marked. Although I did agree that the quad should have been worth more.

    Put it this way: given how much I dislike Lysacek I was an easy target for arguments that Plush should have won. But, no argument was given that convinced me, not at the time nor since.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2012
  26. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    What's your standard of controversy? Pairs 2002 and nothing else? It was controversial. There's no arguing it wasn't controversial just because you don't agree with the basis of what made it controversial. Like "I don't care about quads so there was no controversy because quads aren't enough to cause controversy!" I don't get the standard your talking about. People opposed the win and didn't like it and so many rules were changed but it wasn't controversial because lysaceks medal wasn't taken away!
     
  27. yaya124

    yaya124 New Member

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    It is really meaningless to argue things happened almost 3 years ago. Men's figure skating changed dramatically since Vancouver, whether Plushenko played a part in it, it does not matter anymore. To his fans, he might contribute to the change of the quads value, to others, this might have nothing to do with him at all. No use to convince each other otherwise. So let both sides get over this page and move on.
     
  28. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    By "people" do you mean "yourself"? There were people who were just fine with the results, too.
    And unless you have evidence to show that the ISU specifically changed the rule because of Plushenko's win, then you can't claim that "many rules were changed" because of that one result.
     
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  29. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    I'm tired of this debate. You deny what is obvious:
    -Was discussion on this matter?
    -Many FS fans and experts supported Plush?
    -In many countries of Europe, told in the news that Plushenko was robbed?
    -Didn't like the quadless champion?
    -Was the ISU under the high pressure ?
    -They has changed the rules, immediately after the Olympic Games?
    -Need the quads to the victory right now?

    Which aren't that right? All true, have to put the story together. You can deny it here in these pages, but in real life you can't erase people's mind.

    About 2002. Goebel had 3 quad, but Plushy had the first 4-3-3 combo(not perfect, but good) in FS history, single quad, and 3A-half Lo-3F combo and so on. Plus fantastic performance. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LR1HHSWoto Goebel had ugly posture and he had lower presentation marks.
     
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  30. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

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    Well if men's skating is "ALL ABOUT QUADS" and everything else is just window dressing, then I would also have to agree that Goebel should have won over Plush cause you know, it's ALL ABOUT QUADS :D
     
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