Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Auntie, Feb 16, 2011.
Why didn't Tim Goebel win a gold medal in SLC? He got robbed!
I know. Goebel managed twice as many clean quads as Plushenko over two phases of competition!
I totally agree he out jumped both Yagudin and Plushenko, he was robbed of the world title in 2003 and abandoned by USFSA, shortly there after. He fell out of favor with the USFSA, infavor of non-quad skaters (I am a fan of Matt Savoie), and then after natioanls 2006, it is like he has been forgotten. Tim never appears in specials, shows, or even mentioned anymore. He was interviewed during Vancouver, and mentioned that the USFSA has not sought him out to teach a clinic or keep him in the loop. He mnetioned that despite working outside of skating in the financial district, that he would like to be more involved in the skating community besides volunteering for skating in Harlem, but has not been given the opportunity. One last thing, he felt that it was a travesty for Mens skating for the two previous world champions and reigining olympic champion to win without quads, it took away from the sports legacy.
I am looking for the article right now.
I thought Tim was a nice skater, but he certainly lacked artistry. Both Yagudin and Plushenko outskated him in SLC-I was there. These two were "complete skaters." Tim, alas, was not. I think he is the perfect skater to point to and said "quads aren't enough." That said, I am sorry for the way he seems to have been left out of the skating community. I always thought he seemed a nice young man. His arms always bothered me so much. They were "flippers." He had no clue what to do with them.
However and whatever, I hope he will find a niche and be able to contribute to skating. Wonder what happened?
Here is an article with Tim's comments re: the quad controversy at the Olympics:
Why would the USFSA abandon him?!
He said this where? Because he didn't say this in the linked article cited by Skatefan66
He had that Esther Rolle thing with his neck too. He and Rachael Flatt are like the white Florida Evans of figure skating.
Oh, Timmy, how fecking wise you are. He pointed out the obvious. I wish he had mentioned Evan's smoother artistic presentation vs. Plushy's epileptic fits, however. But hey, I'll take this here...
That was extremely well said. Thanks, Tim.
Is this some kind of If it hasnt been on internet it doesnt exist?Sorry but get out of forums and watch a competition. There are plenty of fs fans who dont hung around in forums of any kind. I know more about gymnastics than fs and i ve been watching way more years but I dont visit any kind of forums except for a greek blog.
In the eye of the beholder..I would never put these words together in one phrase, but that's just me. Btw Plushenko not skating well, being shaky and all, doesnt suddently make Evan an arteeest or a genius skater, he was better that night fullstop. Havent we talked in Gp this season that sp matters also? His sp was not-that-great for the 90s. If Dai was silver one point behind Lysacek I bet the reaction would be different about flawless Lysacek because they were a tie in sp. The whole reaction afterwards was not weather Lysacek should have won the Lp which he should but since the outcome was close by a point, the sp played its role as well.
The Vancouver debate is as interesting anymore as the debate I had with my dentist today to extract or not my wisdom tooth. But he took it out at the end.
And once again, that says more about Evgeny's skating than it does Evan's. Evan is far from my favorite, but I thought he was better than Evgeny. But maybe you are right - the eye of the beholder, because I've always thought that Plushenko was an ugly skater.
Tim's skating deteriorated after 2003. He never recovered skating-wise from whatever cause him to withdraw from Nationals in 04 and after Frank "fired" him. His quad went MIA and so did his 3A.The USFSA judges couldn't throw support around a skater that was obviously a shade of his former self and wasn't going to produce winning result anymore. ( I shudder at that ridiculous Night on The Bald Mountain program that TT gave Tim.)
As far as not being involved much in skating anymore, I always thought it was Tim's choice as he wanted to concentrated on his studies and getting into a new career. But that was just my guess.
I saw it live - ugly! With that humped back and those flamey things on his jumpsuit, it was like Quasimodo came out of the closet or something. I felt so bad for him, because I actually enjoyed his FS at 2003 Worlds and thought that he could only get better.
I've heard at least 1000 different stories as to why he broke down, none of them pretty. I hope he's better now.
Just for the record, Takahashi insists on trying the quad for himself personally; because he is capable of doing it (and even landed two quads in a FS at one point), he believes he needs to go for it in order to do his absolute best.He doesn't insist that men's skating is merely dancing without it (like Plushenko or his coach have stated), but that it is important for him.
(I'm not sure if anyone really insinuated that Daisuke has done that, but I wanted the matter to be clear. )
Dai is a true artist. Plushenko can be "artistic" or "stylistic" but it isn't the same.
It's like when people ask me if I've seen that "Chinese Circus Swan Lake" You Tube thing that everybody and their dog has sent me this week. Yes, I have seen it and, and it's amazing. Fun to watch-fantastic. But it's tricks-well polished and stylistic tricks. Grimacing faces do not equate depth of emotion. It isn't art. (To me anyway. If you disagree, fine.)
Yes-skating is a sport, not an art form per se. But if art is to be taken out of skating, just have the jump and spin contests and be done with it.
Speaking of Tim Goebel, what is he up to right now post skating?
I did not hear anyone complaining about the value of the quad before the result of the mens competition. Hadn't the rules been the same for about 3 years?
Joubert was complaining about it for two years! After worlds in 2008 and 2009! It was just that no one thought an Olympics would be won without one so no one really cared that much until it happened at the Olympics and then there was the revisions. Many thought the revisions were coming anyway though-it was just a wait until after Vancouver. I don't know why though.
Major revisions tend to wait until after the Olympics to give the skaters more time. There were a tonne of revisions made: the change in spirals and step sequence, the introduction of the SD, the overall reduction of elements.
Additionally, there were changes made BEFORE as well in terms of value. In 2008 (Buttle as WC), the quad toe was worth 9.0 points. In 2009 (Lysacek) the quad was worth 9.8. But major revisions happen after major events, not before.
I've seen Goebel on technical panels at local competitions in the NY area for the past few years so he IS involved with USFS.
Is it the one posted in this thread? (his May 2010 Senior profile at Columbia University's School of General Studies) http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?t=73611
Joubert was complaining about the value of the quad well before 2008, even mentioning it after winning 2007 Worlds - IIRC, because he thought not enough skaters had attempted the jump during the event. But he was one skater expressing a point of view that wasn't necessarily popular, so why would it have had an effect? It takes time to see how trends in skating develop, and like Proustable wrote, you usually don't see major changes until after the Olympics. Certainly the value of the quad is not the only major change to have come out of the 2010 ISU congress.
I didn't watch the men's event at the Olympics in real time and had zero interest in watching it after, so I can't comment as to the merits of Lysacek's performance there. I do think that winning 2009 Worlds played a major role in getting him to the top of the podium in Vancouver, as he got a nice PCS bonus out of it and a political and media push he might not have had otherwise. But he still had to go on the ice and skate the best performances he could, and he did. There were many skaters who could have kept him off the podium entirely, but none of delivered when it counted. Whatever faults were (and are) in the system and however much I personally dislike Lysacek's skating, I can hardly blame him for that.
These posts made me think of maybe the most important revision which was not increasing the value of the quad but reducing the risk of failing! The toe is the easiest jump and and the best bet to do a quad of. In 2008 Takahashi did a quad and got 10.43 from a BV of 9 points. When he tried for another URed and fell in an attempt to do a combo 0.20 points. Obviously the risk of failure became far too great for that element! The rules changed for all the jumps and all disciplines but because the men was the only one experiencing technical regression that had to be the main reason for the new < underrotate and << downgrade marks.
Now you can ur and fall without risking a zero or negative points actually. Takahashi in 2010 really got zero on his attempt but in 2008 I guess you can say because he fell in his attempt at a quad then in reality .80 was deducted from his score for attempting.
So the new rules which feature underrotate and downgrade (rather than just downgrading )and are no longer so harsh probably has more to with it than point value. But the 10.30 points does make it more attractive to do.
That's definitely true. The quad has a higher base value, lower penalty for negative GOEs and the under-rotate/downgrade rules. Those combined make it far more attractive for skaters.
Once again, eye of the beholder. And my eyes at the time were extremely naive, I knew nothing of the sport. Lysacek's performance left me going, bzuh? What happened? Why did he fold himself into those weird positions when he jumped? Why, oh why, oh why, did he 1) use that much hair gel and 2) touch himself so much!??!!? I considered it quite the creepy performance.
I wasn't blind to the fact that Plushenko's jumps were wonky, but I loved it. There was something charismatic, something fun, about his skating. Perhaps the judges (and a lot of people here by the looks of things) need a sense of humour upgrade? (Also, Scott Hamilton's "cat" moment was one of the best commentary moments of Vancouver.) This was a man who was strong and confident in himself, not hiding behind hair gel and a "heteromale" facade. And he was brutally honest and didn't care what anyone thought. I loved it immediately. My favourite Formula 1 driver, Mark Webber, is in much the same mold.
Um, clearly you haven't been reading any press before Vancouver.
Say what you want, I preferred him to Plushenko
I always used to enjoy Plushenko's skating; however, he came to Vancouver with an ego and attitude that were far bigger than his skating. He didn't plan the program to maximize COP, he simply decided "I have a quad, of course I'll win with it, I cannot be denied." His jumps were off, his program was frankly a cheesy borefest where you could see him stop and do dramatics to make up for the fact that he was tiring, and his attitude, especially at the end ("how can you NOT give me the gold") did not help. Frankly, he should have come in THIRD at best IMO, even with a fall, Dai had a much better program.
There was only one "wuzrobbed" here, and that was actually Evan. He should have won by a bigger margin. Plushenko thought he could phone in a win with a 2006 performance. Unfortunately for him, it was 2010.
I'll take Evan's hair gel over Plushy's stringy, dirty-looking mop. NOT what I would call a handsome guy. Evan's not really my type, but at least he looks like he gives a damn and tries-spends some time with his appearance. But that's just my opinion. Plushy has a nice body though. Nice proportions.
You're never going to find a handsomer male skater than Eman. My gosh, that face! He is just beautiful. Johnny's beautiful, too, most of the time, and Charlie makes me flutter. Rocky's to die for. There's some Russian men pair and dance individuals who are just drop dead gorgeous. Plushy is not among them, and he is not improving with age. he really should do something about that awful hair. It looks dirty all the time and is never well cut. I wonder what he would look like with a shaved head???? Alexei still looks mostly the same to me, and he's got my award for the sexiest male skater of all time. I know this is a purely individual preference, and each to his or her own!
Actually, I agree that he was obviously tiring at the end. I much prefer his Euros performance of the same program. However, I agree that it was a horrid program overall and I cannot wait for next season and his new programs.
But at least I made an emotional connection with his.
As for aesthetic preference, Evan is a six-foot-two stick who uses too much fake tan, hair gel and PR. Evgeni is a slim man with a regal profile and nice hair, although sometimes I wish it was shorter. Again, in the eye of the beholder.
Although Ilia Kulik beats both of them for looks.
Plushy's coif looks like Linda Evans' Dynasty 'do before she put the curling iron to it. Eman is handsome yes, but too much makeup.
Now that's one thing I can really agree with you on!
But a "regal" profile?? YOU my dear, speaking of PR, should BE in PR! I mean that nicely.
Got me in one - university course: Sports Media.
I was amazed at how many women find Plushy and Yags hot looking. Neither one of them do a thing for me. But you're right, different strokes for different folks.
Judging by your profile, your worries are unfounded. You are safe with both of them.
Straight women, especially beautiful ones, surely love handsome men. But handsomeness doesn't imply only face features. Masculinity is a littlle bigger concept. So, while neither Yag nor Plush have face features that could count as "super handsome," I can understand why some straight women find them attractive.
I am with you, Rex. But then I never was into Russian men, no offense to any on the board. Yags and Plush are of course very fit and athletic. I was a huge fan of Yags' skating and Plushy's as well, up to a point but don't find them in the least attractive. Le shrug.
...then they are blessed....
with you. Lucky them.
I am not married to a Russian and you know that. But unlike you, I don't have the stuff "I am not into [nationality] men," which indeed makes me blessed.
Sorry if the facts of your fascinating biography slipped my mind.
Then feel free to sit there counting your blessings and feeling supercilious.
Separate names with a comma.