ESPN docum on Tonya-Nancy: 20 Years After on Thurs, Jan 16

Discussion in 'TV ALERTS' started by Frau Muller, Jan 14, 2014.

  1. Johnny_Fever

    Johnny_Fever Well-Known Member

    1,120
    39
    48
    Ashley tells it like it is? Interesting.

    If Justin Bieber is any indication, even rock stars are unprepared for rock star status.

    I've heard that Oksana is a bit of a prima donna. Maybe Lillehammer was not the first time that Oksana kept Nancy (and everyone else) waiting.
     
  2. VALuvsMKwan

    VALuvsMKwan Wandering Goy

    5,104
    1,689
    113
    It certainly wasn't the last time...
     
  3. Johnny_Fever

    Johnny_Fever Well-Known Member

    1,120
    39
    48
    I had forgotten all about the "homewrecker" thing. Neither Nancy nor Jerry were thinking about reputations at that point were they?
     
  4. neptune

    neptune Well-Known Member

    3,997
    196
    63
    You may have missed this from a little higher up in the thread: ;)

    I was flawless. I didn't have any touch-downs. I didn't make a mistake. I was clean. Oksana wasn't clean. She two-footed two jumps....I skated great.
     
  5. neptune

    neptune Well-Known Member

    3,997
    196
    63
    Is that a serious question? Just from Sochi we had Ashley's mouthing of a not-so-nice word in reaction to her SP score, which went viral on the Internet. And then she really slammed the judges for the marks she received in the FS. So, the comparison between the two makes sense.

    Apparently not. And Jerry was some "manager," huh?
     
  6. Rex

    Rex Well-Known Member

    25,887
    5,310
    113
    I wonder if he still took 30%...
     
  7. MacMadame

    MacMadame Cat Lady-in-Training

    17,877
    4,363
    113
    Unfortunately, Tonya isn't the only skater who has had people at the rink wanting to call CPS on one or more of their parents. And sometimes it even happens. Her mom sounds pretty bad but there are some pretty bad skate parents out there who just don't know how to motivate their kids without being abusive.

    Nancy said right in this documentary that the FBI told her that they couldn't prove it but they thought Tonya planned the attack. And this is not the first time I've heard that. It was why USFS wanted to keep her off the team and eventually stripped her of her title.
     
  8. neptune

    neptune Well-Known Member

    3,997
    196
    63
    Really? What has been the outcome?

    That's horrible. Can you think of the names of any skaters who have had their parent(s) reported to CPS?

    Oh, she does? I still haven't finished watching it. However, I found this quote from an article published just last month:

    http://www.rbj.net/print_article.asp?aID=205129

    It wasn't until the following week the FBI revealed that Harding's husband, Jeff Gillooly, had planned the attack.

    I also found this:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-sr...998/history/timeline/articles/time_020294.htm

    In the accounts of Gillooly's interview with the FBI, he told agents that on Dec. 28 Harding approved a final plan to assault Kerrigan.

    You don't "approve" an attack if you're the mastermind. :)

    Furthermore, just a couple of months ago, Jeff said that he talked Tonya into it. Why would he have lied? That makes no sense. Also, I've heard that Tonya was initially skeptical of the plan and doubted that Jeff and his goons would ever be able to pull it off. So, something just doesn't add up here. Are there any articles on the Web from years ago that state that the FBI thought Tonya was the mastermind??? As I said, this is the first time I've ever heard this.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2014
  9. cmk

    cmk New Member

    22
    1
    3
    I don't believe Tonya planned the attack or even approved it. I think the FBI guy Frink just wanted to nail Tonya since the public had already convicted her. I read an interview with Rosenberg that said he dropped her as a client because he couldn't deal with Jeff and his control of Tonya (there was hard evidence that both Tonya's mother and Jeff abused her. Jeff was also charged a few times with abusing wife #2 (who later died at a drug rehab facillity). Rosenberg said Tonya knew she could outjump Nancy, and since she had already beaten Nancy on the ice as well he believed she was innocent and so do I.

    I also felt the Usfsa unfairly stripped Tonya of the 94 national title she would of won anyway (she was the better skater). The judging at 93 us nationals was wacko, and was based more on punishing both Tonya and Nicole for their "bad girl" reps than based on the actual skating. I will admit Ervin skated well in the free, but the technical difficulty (no 3 lutz or 3 flip) was just not there to be competitive at the senior level.

    I am also suspicious of how the garbage bag from the restaurant with the note conveniently shows up several weeks later. I wouldn't feel comfortable eating at a restaurant that waits weeks for garbage pickup ( could you imagine Taffer or Irvine or Ramsay going off on that owner- that trash bag was in there for several weeks and you are just taking care of it now). There was also more than one handwriting expert- some said it wasn't Tonya, the fbi conveniently chose the one that said it is.

    I think the Usfsa just wanted to get rid of the only skater the judges would place over Nancy if both skated clean although I preferred Kwan and Bobek to Nancy at the time. It also bugs me that when asked if Tonya really didn't know it, Nancy goes "does it really matter whether she did or didn't?. Of course it matters, it is even proven ( I hope one day it will be) that Tonya didn't know, she was unfairly banished from the sport she loved, and fans were cheated out of seeing a talented skater skate. As for Morry's false accusation that Tonya unhooked her jump midair in the middle of the jump when everyone watching on tv knows that wasn't the case in 93,
    it just proves he hates her and did before the whack despite her talent which he refuses to recognize. Kerrigan wasn't that good of a skater- she was packaged well but came across as phony, and her actual skating was stiff and wooden and awkard. The dress and hair were elegant, the skating was not.
     
  10. allezfred

    allezfred Papadakis/Cizeron Are World Champions! Wheeeee! Staff Member

    44,828
    13,179
    113
    Eys! :D

    It needs to be repeated that Lillehammer Ladies free is the most :inavoid: :rofl: :eek: and :drama: skating event ever!

    My favourite bit about the version of the documentary on Youtube was that someone had taped the whole thing from television while their mother was preparing dinner in the background. :lol:
     
  11. Johnny_Fever

    Johnny_Fever Well-Known Member

    1,120
    39
    48
    I'm aware of those things. I just didn't know that Ashley made a habit of it. I find Ashley's candor refreshing. By contrast, Gracie Gold seems to choose her words very carefully. She's a politician.
     
  12. heckles

    heckles Well-Known Member

    3,138
    661
    113
    Shagging an old married guy who has kids is a lot cornier.
     
  13. Johnny_Fever

    Johnny_Fever Well-Known Member

    1,120
    39
    48
    The lesson I took away from that was, "Be somebody's manager." :D
     
  14. heckles

    heckles Well-Known Member

    3,138
    661
    113
    Yeah, the old coot did well. :lol:
     
  15. MacMadame

    MacMadame Cat Lady-in-Training

    17,877
    4,363
    113
    CPS isn't in the habit of broadcasting the outcomes of their investigations to the general public.

    The point is, Tonya isn't the only skater who has/had abusive parents as you seem to think. Skating brings it out in some people. I have seen other parents hit their kids, scream at them, etc. It's horrible. Sometimes people at the rink do absolutely nothing, sometimes they talk about calling CPS but don't, and sometimes they do it.

    Generally whatever happens, the public doesn't know the outcome and it's really frustrating.

    I want to address a different comment from someone else (I think it was from someone else) how if Kristi had grown up in that environment, she'd be a brat and if Tonya had grown up in Kristi's household, she'd be a polite young lady. It doesn't work like that. We all know people who grow up in abusive environments who turn out polite and successful and there are plenty of brats who come from good homes. The reality is: we don't know how Tonya would have turned out if she'd grown up in a different environment because we don't know how much of how she turned out stemmed from basic temperament and how much was from her environment.

    I am going to assume that a lot of it came from her environment but I think, given how much she didn't turn her life around when taken out of that environment, that at least some of it stemmed from basic temperament.
     
  16. Johnny_Fever

    Johnny_Fever Well-Known Member

    1,120
    39
    48
    I'm not a psychologist, but it seems to me that the effects will linger, even after someone has been taken out of an abusive environment. We're all products of our formative years.
     
  17. Johnny_Fever

    Johnny_Fever Well-Known Member

    1,120
    39
    48
    True, but she ain't no spring chicken anymore either.
     
  18. just tuned in

    just tuned in Active Member

    734
    96
    28
    I agree -- genetics plays a big role.
     
  19. neptune

    neptune Well-Known Member

    3,997
    196
    63
    I believe that.

    Yes, one time he slapped her and threatened to kill her.

    Well, I used to think she was innocent, but not anymore. One of the biggest clues is this: In December 1993, Tonya called journalist Vera Marano to find out where Nancy practiced. In January 1994, Tonya never denied that. However, in an interview with CBS in 1998, when the interviewer asked Tonya if she knew about attack, she responded with this bizarre statement: "How would I even know where [Nancy] practiced?" So, are we to believe that Tonya, in 4 short years, simply "forgot" that she ever called Marano in the first place? If you want, I can dig up the YT video of the interview and post it here.

    Was she the better overall skater? When she practiced, yes. Would she have outskated Nancy at Nationals? Possibly. Would she have won? She would've had to outskate Nancy convincingly in order to get the marks.

    It was pretty weird. Probably the best skates of the top 6 were Kwan's!! :)

    I agree that it all seems strange. If that were the only thing connecting Tonya to knowledge of the attack, then I'd probably still give her the benefit of the doubt.

    But do we know the bag was really there for several weeks?

    Really? Didn't know that.

    Well, for various reasons (many justified), they didn't really like Tonya. And they said that the FBI believed her involvement went far deeper than just learning about the attack after Nationals. So, I can understand their reasoning.

    I actually think Nancy is trying to be charitable.

    How could this ever be proven?

    That is definitely bizarre. You can't ignore video evidence just because you were "there." :(

    He definitely lacks objectivity.

    There's definitely some truth to what you're saying. But Nancy did make the most of her opportunities, so one can't fault her for that. She wasn't that consistent, but her jumps, when she was on, were still very good. Was she one of the best U.S. female skaters ever? I don't think so.
     
  20. neptune

    neptune Well-Known Member

    3,997
    196
    63
    OK, thanks. However, if the kids end up being moved to a foster home, many people will know about it.

    Actually, my point is that her mother is an extreme example. Does that mean that there have never, ever been other skating mothers similar to her? No. But she's far from being just your "typical" controlling skating mom. I mean, have you ever heard of another skating mom who's been married 6 times???

    That is terrible. But let me ask this: Do they also beat their kids every single day and even drag them by the hair??? Perhaps they do--I don't know.

    Well, if it's serious enough, they definitely should.

    I posted that, but I didn't actually say that it was a certainty. I said probably. IOW, the odds favor that outcome. There are always exceptions.

    It's not that simple. Are there people who manage to overcome severely abusive environments, such as what Tonya endured? Yes. But many of them are also educated, which Tonya was/is not. To overcome what Tonya went through would probably take many years of counseling. Are there brats who come from good homes? Yes. But it seems to me that Japanese homes tend to raise very polite, respectful children. Could Tonya have turned out to be a brat being raised by the Yamaguchis? Yes, it's possible, but the odds are against it.

    Right, we don't know that for a fact. I'm just talking about the odds.

    I'm sure there's truth to that too.
     
  21. neptune

    neptune Well-Known Member

    3,997
    196
    63
    Oh, concerning Nancy's statement that the FBI believed Tonya was the mastermind, I wanted to mention this. On Access Hollywood just last month, Nancy said something like: "I didn't want to believe that Tonya was involved. But the FBI told me, 'Well, we don't have any hard evidence, but we do this for a living, and we believe she knew [about the attack].'" This is consistent with what Nancy has always said, and she mentioned nothing about Tonya being the mastermind. For her to suddenly say that the FBI told her that they thought Tonya was the mastermind is a bit odd. During the NBC interview, could she have simply been misremembering what they had told her? I mean, it's been 20 years, so I guess that's possible at least.
     
  22. neptune

    neptune Well-Known Member

    3,997
    196
    63
    Yes, the effects will definitely linger. That's why overcoming an abusive environment can be incredibly difficult. And if the abuse is severe enough, you can't do it on your own but will need lots of outside help, assuming that you are even willing to try to overcome what happened to you. But that's the thing--abuse can change your personality to the point where you don't even want to try to change; instead, you just stay bitter and miserable.
     
  23. canbelto

    canbelto Well-Known Member

    1,447
    170
    63
    The FBI comment sounds like a pretty standard investigation tactic. In any kind of case where it stems from conflict/jealousy/whatever between two camps (in this case, Kerrigan vs. Harding) FBI would want to cover all bases, so they'd want to fish stuff out of Nancy too. It's not exactly ethical, but they do this to get people out of their comfort zone. Maybe Nancy would have said that one time they were rooming together, Tonya said this or that. They want to know the possible history between the skaters beyond what the standard line is.

    It doesn't really matter anyway whether Tonya knew originally -- she admits that she found out about it and didn't contact investigators. So any moral highground she might have had from Giloolly and his goons is lost by that lack of action.
     
  24. neptune

    neptune Well-Known Member

    3,997
    196
    63
    Very interesting comment, but I'm not sure I completely understand what you're saying. Are you saying that the FBI might have purposely lied and told Nancy that they thought Tonya was the mastermind just to fish some information out of her?

    And for good measure, here's the recent article in which Jeff acknowledges being the mastermind behind the attack. :) There's absolutely no reason he'd be saying that today if it were in fact true that Tonya herself had been the mastermind all along.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...minding-hit-figure-skater-Nancy-Kerrigan.html

    ‘She'll never be remembered for how wonderful a figure skater she was,’ he said. ‘She'll be remembered for what I talked her into doing.'

    Well, if the only reason Tonya didn't report what she knew was that she truly believed her life was in danger, I think most folks could forgive her for that. Trouble is, that ship seems to have sailed a long time ago. ;)
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2014
  25. canbelto

    canbelto Well-Known Member

    1,447
    170
    63
    I do know investigators often present scenarios to people they are interrogating, to get more than the standard operating line. Not saying the FBI lied to Nancy on purpose, but they might have presented to her a scenario in which Tonya planned the attack to get Nancy to say how Tonya might have known about certain key things (where she practiced, her normal everyday habits). Sounds like Nancy was/is pretty reserved and might not have had much to say beyond the fact that they were teammates and she didn't know Tonya that well. Investigators might have wanted her to open up.

    It's also been 20 years and Nancy's memory might be fuzzy. Also the interview appears pretty edited. Nancy today sounds like she doesn't much care whether Tonya planned it or not.
     
  26. neptune

    neptune Well-Known Member

    3,997
    196
    63
    OK, thanks. That might definitely explain a few things.

    And that would be understandable.

    That's a good thing, because an article I read about happiness research indicates that the most essential quality for happiness seems to be the ability to forgive easily. Based on her recent remarks, Nancy seems to harbor very little if any bitterness/resentfulness toward Tonya, but instead appears not to have taken any of what happened to her personally.
     
  27. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

    4,892
    588
    113
    Luck really went Nancy's way and it's always easier to reach forgiveness nirvana when there are no lasting or irreversible damages. The one resentment that nancy apparently still harbors is her name being liked to Tonya's like peanut butter and jelly for time immortal. She brings it up whenever interviewed about this, although she never clarifies if the resentment is directed at tonya, the media, the public who lap it up, or just the universe in general.

    Had she been permanently handicapped, or given a career ending injury, or prevented from skating in Lillehammer, or too injured to skate her best there, or suffered considerable income loss after the games, ect... And tonya had not paid so dearly for her mistakes, it would have been easier to hang onto that anger she clearly felt back on 94 when she had to share practice ice with the woman the FBI was telling her was guilty yet no one was willing to actually punish in any form.
     
  28. Rex

    Rex Well-Known Member

    25,887
    5,310
    113
    But is Nancy still nursing a resentment towards Oksana?
     
  29. Johnny_Fever

    Johnny_Fever Well-Known Member

    1,120
    39
    48
    Skaters never get over being beaten by somebody. They'll take that to their grave.
     
  30. Johnny_Fever

    Johnny_Fever Well-Known Member

    1,120
    39
    48
    She's also hoping that by acting indifferent about, people will stop asking her about Tonya. She's tired of being defined by this story. She just wants it to go away.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2014