Elizaveta Tuktamysheva wins 2011 Japan Open

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Maofan7, Oct 2, 2011.

  1. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    This girl is amazing and for a 14 year old she skated way above her years. Uses the music, showed personality and character and the jump technique is fabulous. Particularly the expression is something you cannot teach, it has to come from the skater and she showed lots of that.

    However this girl, regardless of what she showed, is still a developing skater. For the complaints about the spins, I daresay the long term plan for this skater was to get the jump technique right (which is pretty damn near perfect) and then time will be spent on the spins. But if by what she showed and how she won this event is a sign of the future, the future is really bright.

    I do find it amazing on this forum, even in the JGP threads, how some people expect these junior skaters to be on par with senior level skaters. However the expectations are unrealistic and I think people need to understand that these skaters are pretty much all developing and are far from where they will be in 3-4 years time (that is if they stay in the sport).
     
  2. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    I definitely get where you're coming from in terms of the expectation on younger skaters. As I said I expect her style, flow and overall presentation to iron itself out over the next year or so...that's something that comes with experience and maturity--and those two things only come with time, so I have no problem with that.

    Liza's spins on the other hand can't be included in the "she's only 14" argument. You can point to a number of junior skaters on the JGP who have better spins than Liza. She still has time to work on it but at this stage, I don't see her layback getting to Mirai/Alissa territory at anytime in the future and that's fine...every skater can't be excellent at everything. She'll get by with what she can do and hopefully she'll continue to work on it...but for now, her layback is a bit of an eyesore IMO...
     
  3. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Yes you can have that argument. Many coaching and skater teams will focus on certain aspects of the skating, whether it be jumps or spins. I think the spins have probably been sacrificed for the jumps. I don't blame the skater but rather the coaching team.

    With regards laybacks, poor laybacks with skating these days are the norm and not the exception. Very few ladies I have seen, even at senior level, can do a really good layback. Unfortunately quite a few are limited by their flexibility. So that is why they now have the sideways spin as an option. So why we expect a Alissa type layback from this girl I don't get when everything else, including for myself the musicality and presentation, actually exceeds those other skaters. She actually looks like she enjoys herself which is something that can't be said for a lot skaters as well There are so many aspects of this girl's skating that are totally in the right direction, I can forgive her for the spins not being totally up to the standard we expect of a senior skater.
     
  4. Mayra

    Mayra Well-Known Member

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    :confused:Considering how snarky we can get, I think the comments on her skating have been pretty tame and constructive in nature. I don't think there was anything unrealistic suggested for things that she can improve and work on. She is a now a senior lady about to make her debut on the senior GP and the comments IMO are totally in line with where she is at with her skating. YMMV
     
  5. os168

    os168 Active Member

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    Liza need better art direction and better programs. For me this Bésame Mucho FS program is an artistic failure, not to say it is not capable of winning. I think she is a musical skater with excellent interpretative skills as shown in her exhibitions programs, but were not fully utilized in her LP.

    The success of her entire performance rest on the fact she has the strongest technical content, a natural charisma of a little Russian Diva. She's the ingénue that still has the innocence of self believe with nothing to loose and the good will from the judges to commend her for putting out a challenging content. I think she will be a big star one day, but this is not a program for the ages in which she will be remembered by, unless you are one of those who get impressed by 2x 3:3s only.

    I find the music edit strangely disjointed in 3 parts with no correlation between the performance, the choreography, and the music and what is trying to communicate.

    Bésame Mucho is a Latin/Spanish love song about 'kiss me, being kissed', but where is the desire, where is the charm? Where is the seduction to allure love, the very first kiss? Where is the tension, the Latin spirit?

    It is used merely used as a background music for a little girl playing make pretend doing fun movements that has no meaning but to deliver the routine elements. Liza did well because she is blessed with a natural charisma and she has good innate presentation skills. But when it all comes down to it, she might as well skate to any other music, it wouldn't make much of a difference with what was put on ice that day.
     
  6. galaxy

    galaxy Active Member

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    Liza is so fantastic that everyone can fall in love with her. :swoon: However, there is one thing we need to remember. This girl is really small at present.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2011
  7. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    I was making a general comment about how some posters comment on junior skaters (this includes discussions on the JGP event threads) and that they don't seem to take into account that they are developing skaters.
     
  8. doubleflutz

    doubleflutz New Member

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    How many of them can skate as fast as she can, have all five female triples with perfect technique, and have the stamina to do a six triple program with two different 3-3 combinations, including one almost four minutes in? :rolleyes: I mean, Yuna had completely terrible spin positions at a much later age, if we're pretending to put this in perspective. I believe Liza still goes to school full-time as well.
     
  9. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

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    What spin of hers do you mean? I mean, she's got gorgeous lay-over camel yuna spin, beautiful layback positions, perfectly paralleled-with-ice sit position, fine-but-probably-not-the-best-for-flexibility-nuts biellman shape and etc.

    You think not pointing her toes in layback spin or bending her neck way over to her back in biellmann position is "completely terrible positions"?
     
  10. Frau Muller

    Frau Muller President of Dick Button Appreciation Club

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    I agree. Adelina and Liza could be this season's version of Mao & Yu-Na in 2005/06. In both cases, the 'seniors' are overwhelmed by two mini-wonders who are too young for the senior ISU events but make their marks during their first senior GP season. Let's see if history repeats itself...if the too-young-for-Worlds kids mow over the seniors in the G-P circuit. Maybe yes, maybe no. Can't wait to see it play out. :watch:
     
  11. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    Valid point; that does put the blame on her coaches. It's possible to have good spins and good jumps at the same time. There has to be a balance between all of it: spins, jumps, spirals, execution, performance, interpretation, etc. Liza's got most of things down but she does still needs some work...and at 14 years old, that's just fine. ;)

    ITA. We all know she's still developing. I don't think anyone can deny that she is a talented jumper with the potential to be a champion...BUT she still has a lot to work on: posture, spins, better choreography, flow, etc. The good news is she's only 14 which means (barring some unforeseen circumstances) she has the next two Olympic cycles and then some to improve her skating. That's encouraging....:D

    I agree completely. I'm not a fan of her programs...at all really. I'm doing my best to accept that this just might be her style (up-tempo, energy pieces) and not criticize her for it. It's all a matter of preference and I prefer a slightly more traditional style. Regardless, the edit of the music is pretty choppy and there's not a lot of cohesion to the program. Again, I'll forgive her b/c she is a fresh-off-the-JGP skater even though some of her skills say otherwise. Hopefully in the future we'll see better music/choreography from her. But for now, I guess her Besame Mucho program will do...but I'm not a fan of it though...

    I'm impressed by Liza's jump technique and capabilities, and she does have decent speed as well. It's great that her technical content is so solid this early.

    As for Yu-Na, when she began in 2006 her spins (like her skating) were a little bit awkward and clunky, but still good with lots of potential. By 2008, she'd worked on cleaning up her positions and had increased her speed as well. Her back position in her layback is superb as is her speed; her centering is good; her arm and leg positions are average. Her Biellmann position was decent, but last year she bumped it up to good. Her layover camel position is superb; her sit spins are very good. Her combination spin has good speed but the positions are just a tab bit better than average. No, Yu-Na will probably never be as great a spinner as Alissa or Mirai, but she worked with what she had and improved upon it and, as a result, she's a good spinner.

    I say all that to say, with some work, Liza's spins can get better too.:)
     
  12. senorita

    senorita New Member

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    And I dont see Mirai/Alissa getting to Liza jump tecnique territory at anytime in the past, present or future, but that is fine as well:p
     
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  13. bek

    bek Guest

    Name a skater who has amazing jumps and spins right now. (I'm thinking Irina in her hey day but Irina had other issues) Liza isn't a great spinner by any means and obviously she needs to work on it. But its not like the great spinners she keeps on getting compared to are great spinners.

    And a lot of these great spinners are great spinners because they have great flexibility. I know Kim supposedly when she was young tried to work on getting that kind of flexibility and reports are it affected her jumps.....
     
  14. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    Often it seems to me that the most amazing spins happen at the junior level, when the skaters are still small and flexible.

    As they grow the flexibility often decreases (although the body awareness often increases), and also small skaters can spin much faster than larger ones.

    On the other hand, the juniors have often been at the game long enough to have developed higher level skills than the even smaller skaters at lower levels.
     
  15. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    She's a talent for sure, but still has stuff to work on (mainly spins). But she definitely is special and has the "wow" factor. I'm gonna wait before I get too excited though because right now she is still SO little (just look at the pics from Japan Open, the girl is clearly well under 5' tall and I doubt will stay that way for long....). Puberty monster could still come in and ruin her career.
     
  16. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    Did you mean to say great jumpers? ;)

    There are a number of girls who are good jumpers and great spinners, but aren't necessarily as clean in terms of technique. Julia Lipnitskaia is a great jumper in addition to being a mind-boggling spinner...Zijun Li has high, airy jumps and amazing spins...Polina Shelepen has great jumps and very good spins...

    All of the aforementioned are dinged with edge calls occasionally, so in terms of technique, Liza T trumps them. As I've said, everyone can't be completely perfect at everything: perfection is boring. What counts is doing what you do well and making what you can do work for you.


    Well, that's true in terms of Alissa but in terms of Mirai and the past, I say take a second look. :p

    Prior to Mirai's growth spurt she had big and difficult jumps that covered a lot of ice...and no edge calls either. Add that to her incredible speed, spins and spirals and it'd be interesting to compare a 14 year old Mirai to a 14 year old Liza T...but that's neither here nor there. :shuffle: Mirai is in a bit of a technique rut as of right now and Liza's not; we'd have to see what happens when Liza hits that dreaded growth spurt.

    But then again, I wonder if Liza is done growing? She seems to be a little taller this season than she was at junior worlds earlier this year, but she still looks pretty small compared to the other ladies. If she stays that size that'd be a huge advantage for her. Even if she does grow a few more inches, her technique looks to be solid enough that it shouldn't affect her jumps too much. We'd have to see though...
     
  17. Eris

    Eris New Member

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    I don't see her growing a lot, but her body proportions may change, they're still a bit childish.
     
  18. millipied

    millipied New Member

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    There was some lengthy discussion last year on one Russian board on this topic. Apparently she comes from a family of tiny people, both mother and father are tiny and her nationality (Tatar) is also known in Russia as people who do not usually grow too tall. But that might not be the case with her. In any case, we don't have to wait too long.
     
  19. peibeck

    peibeck Counting down the days 'til Skate America

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    I find her shoulders :yikes: , her bent right knee in the spins, and some of the use of her hands and arms in this program very, very distracting.

    That being said, her jumps are sublime, and I'm excited about her potential. And whether she adds a 3A to her arsenal or not, she certainly has proven she does not need it to win. I don't think we should be annointing her a Sochi medal just yet though. :lol:

    As for fixing any of the things she needs to work on, I guess we will have to wait and see. If she is winning everything in sight right out of the gate, I worry that they will not feel she needs to develop better technique on her spins, or improving the speed in her footwork sequence.
     
  20. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    I agree. Her lines are a little distracting. I kept wondering what it was about her that's kind of off...it's her posture and the position of her arms and hands when she skates.

    I guess I better get used to mentioning Adelina's name when it comes to Liza T b/c they are the ones going head to head in terms of the newbies. I do think Adelina's posture and lines are better than Liza's. I think that's also helped by Adelina's height and length. She has long arms and legs and (thankfully) she has very nice extension which helps her appearance on the ice.

    I heard Adelina did a test skate a day or so ago; I really hope someone got some footage of her. I'd love to see where she is at this point.
     
  21. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Her jumping technique is really good at the take-off, but her body is broken in the landing. So, I guess it will be a problem as she grows up.
    I'm not fond of her style, very juniorish. But she is still young, it explains. Great potential :)
     
  22. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    The best thing about her being so young is that it gives me a while to learn how to spell her last name!
     
  23. Sasha'sSpins

    Sasha'sSpins Well-Known Member

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    Thank you Maofan! :respec:
     
  24. muffinbiscuit

    muffinbiscuit Member

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    I would be a lot more excited about Elizaveta if Mishin weren't her coach. All I can think about is Plushy. Great everything, but i could never get excited about watching him as I could, say Lambiel or johnny Weir [in his heydey]. Right now I am rooting for Adelina.
     
  25. Maofan7

    Maofan7 Away

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    Here is Joannie Rochette's skate from the Japan Open 2011:-

    Joannie Rochette
     
  26. mgobluegirl

    mgobluegirl Well-Known Member

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    Tuktamysheva was fantastic, but her layback is fugly.