Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by arakwafan2006, Nov 24, 2013.
don't Blame the Judges ..BLAME I.S.U
How many crossovers can a team do in a Free? It looks like they simply crossover from one element to another . . . the whole program. It's almost embarrassing to watch. The choreography is so muddled and disjointed that her messy fall near the middle of the program looks just like every other messy thing they did. I liked their programs last year and felt like they deserved their success but for this Oly year, I have to ask, what was Zhulin thinking? The dogs barking, the arms flailing, the getting shot (twice) and dying (twice), Dima's idiotic facial expression at the end. Seems like a (bad) joke. They deserve better.
I agree with most of what you wrote, but you don't have to take everything so literally. She is not shot twice and dying twice. She is shot once, but obviously not in a way that would make her die instantly, so she doesn't - instead, she is dying/perhaps bleeding to death slowly and having her last attempts to fly while at the same time feeling that she is getting weaker and that something is really wrong with her which her partner is feeling too (I presume that birds don't understand that they are dying in the way that humans do). At least I think that's the idea - the execution of this idea is another thing, though. Also the lone cry of a bird and the "idiotic" look on Soloviev's face at the end is obviously the last cry of sadness for his dead female partner. I understand that they are trying to show birds in a quite literal way, but it's not working very well for them since they are not good actors.
I should have been clearer. They have to contend with their programs being majorly reworked at pretty much the beginning of the season. I honestly think that has a lot to do with the sloppiness and the number of crossovers in the program. They really haven't had the preparation time.
I had heard the rumour From Russia With Love, post #606, but I now realize I misinterpreted it. I thought the poster knew that TAT had asked them to change it and was speculating on her reasons for such a request, but I now realize the poster was speculating on who asked them to change it in the first place as well. My bad.
lauravvv clarified that Zhulin said in an interview that the idea to change it came to him at night or something (post #619). Thanks for that info, lauravvv.
I really, really wish they hadn't changed their FD. They are much better skaters than what we are seeing. Imagine having to deal with all of this and the pressure of coming in as the defending world bronze medalists at their home Olympics?
I still like some sections of their programs. I like the opening moments of their SD where Katia uses that gorgeous back flexibility of hers to express that elongated note of the music, and her slinky movements nicely fit with Marilyn's characterization here and with the feel of an American foxtrot and they finish by a sharp drop of one side (his right and her left) to hit Marilyn's sharp "love":
til about 1:03
And I love this bit of quickstep here, in promenade hold:
I especially love this part:
I just love how they express the rhythm with quick switches of feet, shifting the weight back and forth, and deliberately vary the level of the hold to correspond to the action and line of the straightened free legs.
They definitely need to address the posture issues and the distance between them because these things are fundamental to quickstep, but there is some great use of rhythm, tension, and overall movement in that SD
Not "Olympic" enough??? Domnina/Tikhonov performance in "Cup of Professionals" was very nice...for a show but the idea and the music fitted perfectly.
Just a simple fan opinion but he could've change only the awkward head movements and adapt the lifts, the steps sequence and etc. technical requirements to ice dance standards.
Thank you for the education. I am quite humbled and now see what Zhulin envisioned. The Domnina Tikonov performance was outstanding. I am enthralled.
I only know of two examples, but I'm sort of annoyed that Zhulin reuses themes and concepts from his previous work (for shows) and gives them to his competitive skaters. I/K (Schindler's List) and now B/S. It shows a lack of creativity and not allowing to skaters the opportunity to organically come up with a piece when other, and more seasoned, skaters have done it first from the same source. Also, if was going to recycle his own work, then I wish he would've kept the music from the Domnina/Tikhonov program and gave it to B/S. If you're going to reuse a program, might as well use the stuff that works. He already gave them the hounds and the "caw" sounds at the end.
Of course, most of us love the Duschenay's Missing FD (some of us both Missing I and II) and that was recycled from Torvil/Dean's pro program. So I am showing inconsistency here.
I really liked Ekaterina Bobrova/Dmitri Soloviev's program last year, but this year is a disappointment. Alexander Zhulin maybe made it too easy for himself just to take one of his show programs and turn it into a competitive program for completely different skaters. The show program is nice, I agree. But for Katia and Dima it doesn't really work, I think. Plus I hate the shot and the bird's croaking at the end, it's tacky, too much "in your face". Their music is so conservative and boring as well. But I think Katia and Dima couldn't have pulled it off with the music Oksana Domnina and Alexei Tikhonov used (which probably was the original music for B/S as well). Sadly, they can't really pull it off with Vivaldi and Mozart either.
I agree that it's way too literal and hits your over-the-head. This is probably why I can't consider Zhulin a brilliant or even good choreographer. I find his work either generic or trying too hard to be artistic. Shame because his work with Usova and Dubova in Usova/Zhulin's early to mid years was excellent. I guess it was really him plus Dubova's direction that created those routines.
Well U&Z's 94 FD was horrible and it cost them the OGM. Maybe that was the one Zhulin had the most input into considering his current work, LOL!
Here is their original FD from the Russian test skate to the music Domnina&Tikhonov used in their Ice Age Cup of Pros program:
I guess I am the only one, but I thought B&S did a pretty good job with the acting. It's very far out of their wheelhouse. It reminds me of DomShabs with their aboriginal dance. They must know everyone is talking about how crappy the program is, but yet they skated it with complete commitment, IMO, which they have to because it would be even weirder if the bird movements were half-assed.
I think in the end they might dump the whole storyline though, and just end up with a classical FD to Mozart and Vivaldi, which will be so far afield of the original point...
I'm of two minds about it. I can see why he'd want to re-use some of those programs. Some of them were really good ideas, but they have to churn out so many of them in a season, and assuming it's like American DWTS, they would only have a week to choreograph and train them. In the case of I&K, the program actually came from a celebrity/skater matchup, so I can certainly see why Zhulin wanted to explore the idea more fully, with actual skaters, in a longer program format, and over a whole season. And it worked beautifully there. I'm more ok with it when it's the skaters are trying to break out, as in a junior team, or a senior team trying to break into the top 10 at Worlds or the top 3 in a strong country. The show programs are kind of created to have a simple to follow storyline that will engage an audience, so it makes sense, I think, to give those to ice dancers of that level as they also work on their elements and technique.
I don't think it's a particularly good idea to give those programs to a World podium contender, though. They don't seem as fresh. B&S needed another breakout program. I guess it shouldn't matter, because CoP is about elements and those can be measured regardless of the program, but the PCS is still based on very vague notions of the overall impression. And the first thing I said when I heard that original music was that it wasn't Olympic enough (not that I wanted him to cut and paste the program to Vivaldi, lol). It's also not great for them to be compared to Domnina & Tikhonov, both World champions who skate with a lot of finesse and emotion... and Oksana is just getting better and better as a pro. This choice for B&S felt lazy/like a cop out. I read his interviews and he just doesn't seem inspired by B&S at all.
I agree. I thought he was a terrible choreographer during the Navka/L&T era so I was surprised to see people raving so much a few years ago. Parisienne Walkways and Pink Panther were both originally exhibitions and their other stuff was kind of generic. With that said, I loved P&B's set of programs in 2010-11.
Thanks for posting this - now everyone can see the original.
[big SIGH!] Every time I watch this I get so at Zhulin. How could he???
Olympic or not, this music totally suits the program - they look more confident performing it - the whole program flows better - even her posture looks better to me. [I have a feeling she tends to hunch over when she feels insecure or unconfident - skating with an under-rehearsed program]
While I cant say I really like this music, I dont hate it and the program is MUCH more effective with the original music. TAT must see this. Why doesnt she say something? She made him change the program last year [when it probably wasnt necessary]. I dont understand why she's not telling him to go back to the old music this year.
As for re-using show programs - it doesnt bother me that much - maybe because I never saw the originals so Im not directly comparing. Also - with COP and elements [and length requirements] - I think you have to make changes - sometimes major - to any show program, so in the end I dont think it's the same dance you're seeing. But then, I am a fan of ballet and have probably seen dozens of Swan Lakes and R/Js - so I am kind of used to seeing the same steps by different dancers.
I also dont think this dance is that difficult to understand. I think I would have gotten it even without explanation. They do a good job of expressing their roles with their bodies. I think if you compare this dance with P/B or even V/M, the storyline comes across much more clearly.
I wonder, is the Zhulin 1992 program an influence on the 2013 BS program? Maybe? Despite the distracting costumes (especially for him). I think it was (much) better than BS's dance. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzLA09eGNwI. Are they still married?
Are you asking if Usova and Zhulin are still married?
If you are…it's a long story. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9iGnlrz5Us
Why D-W ubbers mean girls still spewing anti propaganda, judges and watchers not that stupid
It is good to spew vitriol but not take it
Katia and her mom very beautiful http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlqzgT47dxE
Thanks for posting that!
Thank you for the video.Very sweet
I don't see any "ubbers" here or venom spitting crawlers ,just people sharing their opinions and concerns because as you wrote "the watchers" are not blind and even some of posters are not judges or technical experts they still can tell what is wrong and what is not.
B/S's FD and the changes they have undergone are the hottest topic of the RuNet, so I can give some updates
The original music was written by a Russian pop singer/composer and it was considered too mainstream; Zhulin looked for an arrangement but couldn't agree with the orchestra and scrapped the music all together. The idea behind Vivaldi came as a "present" from him in the memory of 92 dance, while Staviyski contributed Mozart. The result is a complete disaster, and I'm yet to find a person who'd think that this program is anything but utterly awful on every possible level.
Said that, Bobrova and Soloviev themselves didn't like the original music too much, they complained it's too difficult for them to understand; Vivaldi/Mozart were somewhat easier choices, even though they aren't comfortable with them either. There's some stupid bird love story behind it, but no one can honestly explain exactly what it is all about.
Compared to the first version of the FD with the new music, they have removed some of the sound effects, but it's still laughable, especially the final "quack!". Seemingly they are going to be pushed by I/K off the number 1 Russia spot (and the favorites for the bronze in Sochi).
And yes, they obviously should have lost to W/P in Moscow. B/S's programs are very difficult, but were badly skated and just not the material one can be competitive with.
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