Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Harley, Jul 18, 2011.
So anyone see Jess and Seb at Liberty? Just wondering on what you thought?
Check out PJ Kwong's blog - she has information and video links.
This video link of their FS (thanks, Lara!) was originally posted in the Liberty thread in the Kiss and Cry forum and discussed there: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1AwvIpLBYg
Direct link to the blog entry:
Jessica Dube and Sebastien Wolfe - A first look
Looks like John Zimmerman on the boards coaching them with Annie? Ideas?
A good start for them. Some glitches, but that's to be expected at this point. Nice to see Jessica's triple flip.
Of course there's a lot of work ahead, but a lot of potential too. I'm really looking forward to watching them develop.
In Annie's interview with PJ she mentions (in French) that in building a new partnership like this, it's important to pace yourself and move forward one step at a time, yet she feels the pressure to prepare them quickly so that they might possibly qualify for a spot at Skate Canada this year. I hope they take the long-term view and don't become discouraged if it takes a little longer for things to come together. They are both young and they have time to work on this partnership.
Having D/R, M-T/M, L/S (and D/W) fight it out will be great for pairs skating in Canada, IMO. None of the teams will be able to take a place on the podium (or a trip to Worlds) for granted over the next few years. That should spur them all on.
ETA: A Universal Sports article mentioned that they had been working with John Zimmerman on a triple twist and on strengthening their pairs elements in general.
I hope the pressure isn't coming from Skate Canada, and that Skate Canada takes a longer-term view. He needs experience! That was obvious from the Liberty recording. Sending them to Skate Canada before they are ready won't do them any favours. They may be ready - we'll know more after the Quebec Summer competition - but the pairs field at Skate Canada is strong. If they aren't ready they should say no and wait until next season.
If Dubé/Wolfe aren't ready for the big time yet (in the opinion of their coach), I think a good alternative would be to send Arsenault/Coté, subject to monitoring. They wouldn't have the spotlight on them like Dubé/Wolfe, and it would be a good experience for them. If they have continued to improve in the last few months as they did last season, they might do reasonably well.
Pair elements look really weak at the moment (but they've only been skating together for a few months) and there is not much height and size difference between them. I wonder if they can work through that.
There were a few problems but overall they did look world class to me, and its July. I think they will be competitive with other teams at Skate Canada if they are sent (I'm pretty sure they will be at this rate). I enjoyed them quite a bit.
Maybe he's not 6'2" as he says, but their height difference to me looks plenty. Not everyone is going to look like Duhamel/Radford out there, nor do they need to look like that. Things like their lifts are of course weak, but he's so inexperienced and their time together is so limited that it seems normal. The triple twist may not come easily, but that hadn't exactly ever been an easy element for Jessica+Bryce either. We should also probably take into consideration that Jessica hasn't skated much pairs lately. Overall, I think they look fine, it was a solid debut, and they have plenty of time to make improvements before Skate Canada, if they wish to attend and are selected (which in all likelihood will happen). I don't mind the program either.
Interesting to me that they're working with Zimmerman and not David Pelletier. Her relationship with Pelletier must have gone sour.
It's early days I know, but I'm not that impressed. Lifts are weak. I found Dube's eyes downcast throughout the entire program practically and they have zero connection. But we'll see. I might change my opinion by January. Somehow I doubt they'll have the TES to compete with MT&M and D&R.
Nice to see Dube land a 3flip though - but he didn't (despite what PJ said in her article). I wonder how reliable his is?
What relationship? That's an unnecessarily provocative statement.
It's been a long time since D/D worked with Pelletier (they went to Doug Ladret instead last summer). So why would D/W go to Pelletier now, considering that his help on the 3 twist never worked for D/D?
From the recent ice network article:http://web.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110716&content_id=21872338&vkey=ice_news
"We haven't worked on a triple twist yet; we really need more time," Dube said. "We changed the technique on the twist. It is not the same as in the past [with Davison]. We want to do a nice double before we try a triple."
I'm glad they're going to Zimmerman for help; maybe they'll actually get the 3twist to work with different technique.
I meant working relationship. I disagree that he didn't help them with the 3twist. He helped them with it quite a bit but that's another story.
D&D spent a lot of time working with S&P (and especially Pelletier) over the course of their career. When D&D split and they thanked the countless people who had helped them over the years, Pelletier/S&P were not on the list. A bit suspicious when this is a guy who worked with them a lot and I'm pretty sure was at the boards coaching them along with Annie at 2009 Canadians and I think even worlds.
OK, I hear you.
I agree that D/D's 3twist improved with Pelletier's help, but it still had a long way to go. When they worked with Ladret last year, Bryce mentioned that it was good to get input from a pairs guy (Ladret) who wasn't so big. Of course Zimmerman is a big guy, but maybe he is adept at working with pairs of varying body types and making adjustments in the input he gives them. Hope so. At any rate, despite Pelletier's input D/D only got so far with the twist, so best to seek other help, IMO.
Also, I remember hearing an interview that Pelletier did with Peter Carruthers back at Worlds in Los Angeles. He talked about his career with Jamie but also mentioned D/D, and basically said that their attempt to do Carmen was off-base, that they should stick to their strength - i.e. romantic programs. That's another reason I was glad to see D/D go elsewhere for help last year. And with D/W needing a fresh start, I'm glad they're seeking other input.
ITA, there is no need to rush. I suspect the push is coming from Annie and Jessica rather than Skate Canada. Prior to Liberty, Sebastien had competed in exactly 6 pair events, all in Canada, and all at the junior level. His pair skills are still developing and he would benefit greatly from a year of senior competition at the domestic level before beginning senior international competition. The last thing we want is for him to turn into a headcase, especially since hes already partnered with a known headcase. One of them has to be stable. I would also like to see Jessica demonstrate consistency with her jumps and throws over a number of competitions before shes sent back out on the world stage. Historically her jumps have been fine in the summer and early fall competitions, but tend to fall apart as the season progresses and the pressure increases.
The fact that D&D even had 3twist at all is because of David Pelletier. It wasnt their best element by a long shot, but it was solid by their final year together. Personally, I think the problem is simply that Jessica is afraid of it. A change of technique isnt going to fix that. And I agree about the lack of a connection. She still looks quite uncomfortable with him. Possibly she doesn't fully trust him yet, despite what she says.
Well, I think almost the same. I didn't find lots of moments to enjoy in this program, but everything may change with the time.
No, he has competed in more events than that. He competed in novice pairs with Justine Gosselin for a year, then spent two years as a junior with Tara Hancherow.
Absolutely, he needs more experience, but I see no reason to be negative at this point. He has very strong skating skills, is a good singles skater, and since he wants to continue his pairs career I'm glad that he has this opportunity.
Rome wasn't built in a day.
Her posture and air position in the first lift was and it looked like they had nice speed and good ice coverage.
He looked like he was tiring towards the end, which isn't surprising in a new partnership, when he's learning to pace with her.
No, but there was no internet, twitter, or utube back then either, so people couldn't criticize that it wasn't built in a day .
I thought the lifts looked scary, ie I was afraid he was going to trip on his skates and drop her, but like everyone said, they're a new pair and it's very early in the season.
For me its too early to say what kind of long-term potential Dube & Wolfe have, especially with him being new to senior pairs.
I'm going to Montreal next month and hope to see them skate at Quebec Summer Skate if my schedule works out so I'll have more an idea then what I really think.
I'm sorry but my reaction at Liberty was
Jessica has the technique and she's certainly a quality skater. But there was no chemistry there and no magic in the program, it was snoozeworthy like most latter-day D/D stuff.
I think maybe I was just in the right mood for what they had to offer, cause I was not at all bored, although part of that could just be that I was intrigued by them and just excited to see how she'd do with someone new- but they did skate 1st and Donlan/Speroff came next and as nice as Dube/Wolfe were, D/S program was a thousand times better. Then CastShnaps skates and rocked my world too. But I can't say I didn't enjoy them...but who knows, maybe I will see them on tv and think they are a total snooze- wouldn't be the first time that happened!
I stand corrected. So its 8 or 10 competitions instead of 6. Still pretty inexperienced. I like Sebs skating and think he has the potential to be a nice pair skater down the road. But he needs to be allowed to develop according to a schedule thats appropriate for him. Im not entirely confident this will happen.
I remember people calling V/T a disappointment when they saw the first clips with them. (Now obviously Wolfe isn't nearly as experienced as Trankov) But I think they DO need a bit of time before we can judge them. I'd think they first need to get comfortable with each other, and then we will see about chemistry.
It all looked pretty ok to me for a new team. Give them time to gel. It just makes pairs more interesting here in Canada. I hope they do well and I wish them all the best.
If it were up to me (which of course it isn't) I would love to see them try something jazzy and upbeat. Something with some energy and playing a bit to the audience. I would even be okay with the odd "oh" face if it meant there was some animation.
I don't know enough about pairs to judge, but stylistically it looked a lot like D&D with a triple flip and no Bryce. Did Sebastian actually land a triple or did he double it - I can't tell from the video.
I do wish them the best. I'm sure they just need more time together. Hopefully, like other have mentioned, there isn't too much pressure put on Sebastian.
For a partnership that's a few months old, not that bad at all. They were never gonna be V/T, but they could be on their way to challenge for top 2 at Canadians and earn a spot at worlds. Will be interested to see how they do at the Quebec summer competition in a few weeks.
There really were people saying this?
D/W definitely need more time anyway, regardless of everything that was said here, just because they have teamed up not so long ago, but I don't think it is really worth comparing D/W and V/T.
Dube had a world medal with her former partner before either Trankov or Volosozhar did, and even though she sounds like as big a head case as Trankov was before being coached by Moser and Morosov, she doesn't look as dire skating with Wolfe as she did for the last few years with Davison. Both Dube and Wolfe have excellent skating skills, but it's too soon for that to show, since they were relatively tentative.
When the first video of V/T came out, there were comments about how slow they looked and how simple their program was, which isn't surprising, given how short a time they had been skating together, not to mention the plan for them to not rush it all but to get the elements down one-by-one before they got fancy.
While I agree with the fact that it is too early to judge D/W and analyse their skating, but still I think that D/D lacked some stability and I am very much afraid this will happen here, although, of course, I hope for the best. I saw V/T at some Russian competitions, and even though they had been skating at the time just for some months - there were more emotions and energy than in D/W case.
In D/W skating I didn't see any emotions at all, the lifts were not very, well, stable and the death spiral was really surprising.
But, again, I agree with you on the point that they need more time.
But all Jessica Dube can do is look either very uninterested or as if she's about to faint.
She is very concentrated, probably?
I'm of two minds on D/W. On the one hand they clearly show great potential with their skills. They could very conceivably develop into a fine and elegant pair that challenge internatioanlly once they gel together.
On the other hand, with dometic competition like Duhamel/Radford, MT/M and even Lawrence/Sweigers they have a huge curve to catch up to. All these teams are VERY hungry and set to prove themselves, especially D/R. I'm not sure D/W are nearly as hungry as the others.
In fact, I think D/R are so focussed and determined at this point, that if their development arc continues they could be crowding the world podium.
The problem is, Jessica skates with no energy. Zero. She is extremely one-dimensional as a skater. She never shows any passion or artistic flare. I think Camerlengo tried to get some passion out of her with that Requiem For a Dream SP they had in the Olympic year but Jessica failed pretty badly at it.
Someone pointed out to me that she's not very musical either. She just skates through the music. Her musical range is really limited IMO.
ITA with this. When she first came on the scene she was so lovely, and I think we all thought she could be one of the greats. Turns out that was largely a result of Wilson's choreography, someone's smart music choices, and good costuming. Over the years, one began to see that what we saw in the beginning was all we were ever going to see, and even that became rather hollow.
I wonder if a different coach might have been able to bring out more personality and flair? Team Annie strikes me as so coddling and protective of their skaters that I wonder if they slot them into a box too much, and aren't open to fresh ideas?
Annie didn't seem to push them (their elements rarely changed, they stuck to one approach musically). Unfortunate.
In the early days, Jessica sparkled. It would be wonderful if she could get that energy and zest back.
I hate to dump all over Dube, but I'll add a "me too" about the lack of energy and passion in her skating. She has nice lines and positions, but that's all. The Phillip Glass music probably doesn't help in this particular program, but even where she has skated to dynamic music (Requiem For a Dream, that Galicia Flamenco SP from a few years ago, even Carmen), she's very flat. I agree with Jenny, it's especially sad considering the potential she showed at first.
I think the world medal was more luck for standing up better in that particular time frame than other top couples (other top couples who soundly kicked D/D's butts pretty much from that time on), and 95% of the time it was Mukhortova, not Trankov, who was the "head case" in competitions....
Yeah, definitely Maria was. I wonder how I missed this.
The Liberty site has posted detailed protocol from the events. It's interesting to compare the breakdown in scores for each of the three teams (though I do hope video of C/S's skate will turn up sooner or later).
I wasn't saying at all that D/W are the next V/T. I was just pointing out that people were early on calling the best new team we've seen since S/S a disappointment when they weren't looking like world beaters after 2 months of being paired.
While Dube has a world medal (and no I don't think she's as good as Tatiana) Wolfe isn't any where near as experienced a partner as Trankov is. So to expect them to be super wonderful right away is a bit ridiculous too. In someways they should have more time together to wait and see.
I'm just saying pairings shouldnt' be written off right away. It takes time.
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