Downton Abbey--Upstairs/Downstairs, Stiff Upper Lips, and Tea!

Discussion in 'Off The Beaten Track' started by Matryeshka, Jan 23, 2011.

  1. nubka

    nubka Well-Known Member

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    Did she know that Thomas knew?:confused: She should have taken her chances and booted him out anyway. He was pretty cute, though... :swoon:
     
  2. danceronice

    danceronice Corgi Wrangler

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    She didn't know about Thomas, but Pamuk made it clear if she screamed or threw him out HE wouldn't be quiet, and just the fact he was in her room would have been a scandal. Adding to the problem is he was a Turk. Not only is there the racial element, the whole reason he's in England and palling around in the upper levels of society is political. So as soon as he invaded her room, there was no way out that wasn't going to be a major scandal, unless somehow no one ever knew. If it weren't for Edith, no one ever would have.
     
  3. Spareoom

    Spareoom Well-Known Member

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    Right. Her family would take her side on the matter, but probably a lot of other people wouldn't, not to mention it doesn't matter if the allegations were true or not; the fact that they're out there is problem enough. He was threatening her and he might not have followed through, but he scared her enough that she felt she had no choice.

    It's a little of a complicated matter because she DOES cave pretty easily, but to say that it was totally of her own free will is just not true.
     
  4. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    ^^^Precisely.

    And while she didn't know Thomas was involved (as they all seem to be generally oblivious to Thomas' and O'Brien's dirty deeds), it wouldn't be unreasonable for Mary to think someone of the numerous household might see something.

    Should she have booted him out anyway? Certainly.

    But as you said nubka, he was :swoon: And they'd been flirting all day with all sincerity. That complicated things. He was likely played a male model with acting aspirations.
     
  5. Wyliefan

    Wyliefan Well-Known Member

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    Which made it a really, really rotten thing for him to do to her. Of course, it's hard to say what one would do in a day and age that were so different -- but I think if I'd been Mary, I'd have taken my chances and given him the boot. I don't care how cute he was -- coercion is ugly clear to the bone.
     
  6. nubka

    nubka Well-Known Member

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    I agree, and just because he said he would do it doesn't mean that he actually would have. Some would-be-romeos will say anything in the heat of the moment to get their way, especially when seduction is involved... :smokin:
     
  7. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    You know that, having the benefit of 21st century worldliness. Think about Mary's character and the time/place of the show. What does she know of seduction methods?
     
  8. terisalyn

    terisalyn New Member

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    Frankly, I was expecting Thomas to hook up with Edith's runaway groom. That WOULD explain his reluctance to marry...
     
  9. danceronice

    danceronice Corgi Wrangler

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    I don't think it really needs that level of explanation...Sir Anthony's been married before (he's a widower, and way back in season 1 when he was first courting Edith it does sound rather like the vicar and the Dowager were onto something, she was a hard act to follow), he views himself as crippled (they found out about his arm when he declined an invitation to come shooting on New Year's, something he used to love, without explanation), a lot of OTHER people view him as crippled, he's under pressure from her own family to back out, Edith's entirely well-meaning but not-well-phrased assurances that she doesn't care about the age gap...it wasn't nice of him to wait until the vicar was already reading the service to back out, but he'd been ambivalent about it for a while. He really had convinced himself (with help from Lord Grantham and the Dowager Countess) he'd be ruining Edith's life and making her a nurse, pushing him around in his wheelchair, denying her a chance for a 'real' marriage-basically worked himself into acting like he was Matthew when they thought the paralysis was permanent. In TV Tropes terms, it was a combination of "I Want My Beloved To Be Happy" and the Idiot Ball.
     
  10. Latte

    Latte Well-Known Member

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    It also occured to me that the Groom was gay and finelly came to his senses.
    I think they might have Bates killed off in prison by his ex roomate.
    I am starting to really like Edith lately. Hope she does become a suffergette.
    In the previews they had Matthew's mother offering Ethel a job but didn't show if she will take it or not.
    Frankly, I was sure she was going to go home and kill herself after she gave up the baby.
    And I HATE the baby's grandfather.
    Mrs O Brien has been much nicer since she caused Cora to lose the baby, and I think she will be Thomas' downfall which is all good.
     
  11. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    The grandfather is a nasty bully. But the relatively sane grandmother said he'd love the boy so I think in her shoes I would have done the same, although a suicide right afterwards wouldn't be far off the menu.
     
  12. Reuven

    Reuven Official FSU Alte Kacher

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    Erm, she has been a suffergette on her way to becoming a suffragette. ;) Sorry, couldn’t resist...
     
  13. cygnus

    cygnus Liberal Furry

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    Women got the vote in the UK in 1918 (those over 30 at any rate). It was extended to all women over 21 in 1928. Since it's now 1920 in Downton Abbey, the suffragette cause has more or less been won. They were no longer doing hunger strikes or civil disobedience.
     
  14. danceronice

    danceronice Corgi Wrangler

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    Grandpa's a bit of a jerk, and very rude (having a tantrum like that in the Granthams' house was very declasse) but he was also right--Ethel can't offer her son a thing, they can. Even before she wound up a prostitute she really had nothing to offer ("a mother's love" is all well and good but it doesn't put food on the table.) And not only did the grandmother say he'd love the baby, which is undoubtedly true, she also mentioned at the first confrontation (when trying to apologize to Robert and Cora for his behavior) that he was so grief-stricken from losing their only son and only child he was "afraid of his own grief." I don't think he's a bully, just utterly unprepared for dealing with his emotions and lashing out because he doesn't know any other way to deal with it, and here's a target... And if Ethel had any brains (which she's repeatedly demonstrated she doesn't) she'd have given Charlie up the first time.

    I think Reuven was just pointing out cleverly that the word is suffRAgette, not "suffERgette".... ;)
     
  15. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    Oh yes, I forgot about the grandmother Bryant apologizing to the Granthams for him. As to Ethel--not very bright, true, but the decision to give up your child is heart-rending regardless of intelligence. Although I agree with you that she should have given him away as an infant as it would have been less traumatic for him (although in the show he didn't seem at all upset leaving her, usually toddlers are pretty clingy to their primary caregiver. Or perhaps he was used to strangers).
     
  16. cygnus

    cygnus Liberal Furry

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    I know that, of course- I just chose to ignore it.;) But others in this thread have said the same thing about Edith- I should have quoted an earlier post.
     
  17. danceronice

    danceronice Corgi Wrangler

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    Well, allowing for attachment even, for all the prattling about a 'mother's love' (ignoring the grandmother's clearly just as capable of providing it), wouldn't a mother who loved their child but could never give him anything other than grinding poverty, poor education, and disease as a lifestyle ultimately give him to a loving family who can provide everything she can't? Even if Ethel didn't opt for prostitution (and I'm not sure why she couldn't go along with the original suggestion--go far away and pass herself off as a Spanish-flu widow) it's pretty clear her son would only be something other than a menial through random good luck (something like Jane's son getting help from Lord Grantham, and there the boy actually had the talent, just no patron). It would have been easier for her to escape her lack of references without a baby as evidence for why she'd been sacked, too. But again, Ethel's never been very bright. Not to mention all about what feels good over what's right, so she doesn't come across to me as REALLY loving her baby, just selfish and wanting him to love her, even if that's not best for him.
     
  18. skatingfan5

    skatingfan5 Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps Ethel was being "selfish" but I don't think it was in "wanting [her son] to liver her" so much as that she did love him very much -- and he was all that she had (not going to argue that she hadn't made the best choices that brought about the whole situation). I guess I have more sympathy for her than most do. She can't help not being very smart -- and I do hope that Mrs. Crawley's attempt at rehabilitating her has some success, even if it is only temporary.
     
  19. danceronice

    danceronice Corgi Wrangler

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    I'm now wondering if Ethel's 'burned cooking' in the 'next time on Downton Abbey' preview is really that she's incompetent/Isobel can't teach her, or she's being sabotaged by Mrs Bird (who's made her opinion quite clear.) Trailers are always deceptive and I can see (because NO ONE on Downton Abbey is allowed to have smooth sailing) Ethel trying and being made to think she's failed again. And Ethel has fallen for people yanking her chain before, though that WAS O'Brien, master of the setup.
     
  20. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    There was a hint at Crawley wanting kids, and Mary had a look that made me think there is something more to that story.

    Anyway tonight's episode is heartbreaking
     
  21. my little pony

    my little pony snarking for AZE

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    well, he had that injury that the dr said would keep his hoo ha from functioning properly. then it spontaneously healed. maybe not so much.

    i cried during tonight's epi
     
  22. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    Spoil me, mlp. They are not yet showing it here.
     
  23. my little pony

    my little pony snarking for AZE

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    sybil's dr wanted her to go to the hospital because she had pre eclampsia. but there was this other dr there, sir philip, that lord grantham deferred to. sir philip thought she's be fine. lady grantham wanted her to go to the hospital. while they fought about it forever, she went into labor. but later on, she had a seizure from the pre eclampsia and died. lady grantham kicked lord grantham out of the bedroom over it
     
  24. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    I have a suspicion the issue may be on her side, whatever that is. (She went to the doctor after all)
    I cried too.

    re:
     
  25. my little pony

    my little pony snarking for AZE

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    that's true she did. i wonder what diagnostic tools were available at that time for correctly predicting barriers to fertility?
     
  26. danceronice

    danceronice Corgi Wrangler

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    Can't be that, Sir Malpractice did ask if everything was 'functioning' and Matthew indicated it was. (The worry was he was paralyzed and literally could not have performed sexually, not that there was anything reproductively wrong. If they're having sex, and they clearly are, that's not the issue.) And ironically, Dr. Expert WAS right--it's only been a few months and Matthew and Mary are stressing about it. #1 way to make it LESS likely to get pregnant is to obsess over it and try too hard. Yes, he could do a 'test' (I think they were subtly referring to a sperm motility check) but there is nothing unusual about her not being pregnant from a medical standpoint.

    Now, if only Mr. Invitation-To-a-Lawsuit could
    know preeclampsia when he saw it before it became full-on eclampsia and she DIED. The local GP should not be pointing out the blindingly obvious to the specialist if the specialist isn't a moron. Way to kill the patient, doc.
     
  27. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    Thanks!
    I knew that Sybil dies from a pregnancy-related condition. Not sure what difference it would have made for her to go to the hospital, I doubt they had anti-hypertensives. The only thing she could have done is bed rest. Seems like she was doomed.
     
  28. my little pony

    my little pony snarking for AZE

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    what he said was that if she had a c section, it could prevent the pre eclampsia. but he couldnt guarantee anything. the other dr who has a title said he 100% guaranteed that she would have a healthy baby w/o going to the hospital ( even though nothing is 100% so he sounded arrogant to me). but lord grantham thought the 100% guarantee was the better deal.
     
  29. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    That was a tough choice though. The alternative was probably just as risky in those days I suspect
     
  30. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    The only cure for preeclampsia is delivery. She must have been close to delivery then if they were considering C-section.