Does Mirai Nagasu have the talent to catch/pass Mao or Yu Na?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by olympic, Jul 28, 2010.

  1. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    You can't fault Lepisto for working within a system and being rewarded. Although, the issue I have is not PCS related, but that she is not penalized more heavily for her obviously intended triples becoming doubles. Perhaps that is what Smarts1 was originally referring to?
     
  2. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I agree. I think if a skater goes out clearly planning to do jumps as triples, is practicing so, has done so all year, and then are doubling out all these jumps they should receive -GOE on them.
     
  3. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

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    COP is a judging system where Mao Asada and Yu-Na Kim can skate right through a planned triple, never leaving the ice, and receive no penalties, like at the '07 GPF SP and at the '09 TEB LP. That's a problem too!
     
  4. bek

    bek Guest

    You can't compare one error from Yu-na with a program that still included 5 triples including a difficult 3lutz/3toe and a double axel/3toe to Lepisto landing attemping 3 triples even if one was a 3toe/3toe. I do think missing an element in the short should be more penalized though.


    For me Lepisto getting rewarded for that kind of technical difficulty bothers me. And Judy the issue is Laura landed the same amount of triples she normally averages. I get that Laura has great choregraphy, skating skills and transitions but clearly the system doesn't reward jumps enough if she can get away with that kind of jumping content. Maybe they need to have a technical difficulty mark in PCS because I truly feel that that numbers don't really factor in jumps well. And I really think the system needs a place where the entire technical whole of a program can be evaluated.

    I thought Yu-na's PCs were to high at Skate America and at worlds and I'd love to see a system that penalizes error ridden programs in both marks.
     
  5. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    I recall that during the 2010 US pairs comp., I/B lost a spot to Vancouver and they got neg. GOE when he obviously doubled the SBS 3toe, but it was otherwise clean. That doesn't seem to happen to Lepisto. Maybe it's a 'favorability' thing.
     
  6. bek

    bek Guest

    If one partner does a triple toe and another does a double toe there's a major unison issue and it should get negative GOE. Its not comparable to Lepisto's situation.
     
  7. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

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    I think that she has the potential to challenge for the top level.
    Staying inljury free is key, as others have said.

    Mastering competition nerves is something that comes with experience.
    Time will give her that.

    What she does have, which most of the "challengers" lack, is the magical "it" factor; and Frank Carroll's expertise - two great advantages.
    I believe that they will serve he well in seasons to come.
     
  8. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    Thanks. didn't think of that
     
  9. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that's what I meant. I mean like half the board goes crazy whenever Carolina scores 56+ for PCS for every LP meltdown she has, so why shouldn't we complain about Laura Lepisto's 60+ PCS she got at Worlds for a craptastic program? Even more I hate Laura's wind-milly arms--just look at her ugly LP step sequence, the arms are just flying everywhere and does nothing much for the choreography; it's just a blatant distraction.

    One thing I have hated about this system is that it just doesn't reward difficult content enough. I mean there is ONLY a two point difference between a triple toe and a triple lutz. How many ladies can do a triple lutz when everyone else in the field can do a triple toe? I was kind of disappointed that the lutz and the flip (in fact giving this jump LESS points? :huh:) weren't given extra points during the ISU congress this year as many skaters can't do them and as shown by Laura Lepisto, it really isn't worth it to do that kind of difficulty.

    I mean to think someone doing a triple toe-triple toe and a triple loop (ie Laura Lepisto) in the short program has a HIGHER base value when compared to someone doing a triple lutz-double toe and a triple flip is very sad and ridiculous.
     
  10. Autumn_girl

    Autumn_girl Active Member

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    ITA. Laura is a lovely skater with a great posture, skating skills, choreography, etc. But I don't think it's right that girls with full set of triples and FS with 5-6 clean triples finish behind her when she lands only 2-3 triples in the FS. And now, when the base value of doubles is higher, she doesn't even have to try triple lutzes, she can land only 2-3 triples (toeloops or salchow) and then do doubles and still win a medal. It's sad
     
  11. bek

    bek Guest

    And then we hear there's more to skating than jumping lalala. The thing is that's true there is more to skating than jumping but the fact is that jumps are a HUGE part of single's skating. And it takes practice to get those jumps consistent. Its not right to act like it doesn't/shouldn't matter.
     
  12. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    Well, looking at the bright side, skaters like Mao [for the 3x], Miki [3z-3l] and the whole bevy of American Gals when they get tight [Mirai, Rachael, Ashley, Caroline] are going to benefit more for attempting 1/4 - 1/2 turn ur'd triples and getting 70% of the base value, as opposed to those jumps being completely downgraded to doubles. This may more than make up for Lepisto's advantage to slighty increased value for doubles
     
  13. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    She WAS only 6th in the LP at Worlds though, Miki was boring, Phanuef got low levels on all her spins, Carolina's jumps were shaky and she was being punished for her meltdown of a season and they still all beat Laura in the FS. So really, Laura is not at fault here.
     
  14. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but Paneuf and Carolina still only beat Laura by like a point or two,even will all the triples they landed.
     
  15. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    True. But they are both incredibly inconsistent and had been getting low FS scores all season so the judges probably weren't comfortable giving them scores that were too high, but Laura where she scored so well at the Olympics, it seemed more reasonable I guess. Her FS score in Vancouver was about 12 points higher than at Worlds, and even there she doubled one jump, so in comparison, I guess it is fair, although in all honesty I thought her FS score in Vancouver was a little too high for what she did (not way too high, but 115-120 may have been more reasonable IMO).
     
  16. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    Aren't the judges supposed to mark what they see on the night, as opposed to how you skate the whole season?
     
  17. Polymer Bob

    Polymer Bob New Member

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    That is one of the great mysteries of skating. I think they are supposed to, but nobody knows for sure if they do.
     
  18. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

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    It's fairly obvious to me whether a skater is held up or not based on their history, rep or potential. When they have a bad night, are they docked like they should be? If there's any sort of padding in the score, it screams "Rep Points" to me.
     
  19. Polymer Bob

    Polymer Bob New Member

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    I often post the opinion that nice jumps have an effect on the judges, making all other elements look prettier. Likewise, falls and step-outs make everything else look uglier.

    But it may go beyond that. Maybe nice double jumps have a greater psychological effect on judges than sloppy triples. So even though a perfect double lutz is worth less than a cheated triple, maybe the perfect double affects the judges, making other elements look nicer than a triple flutz does. So Laura's pretty double loses 2 or 3 points, but nets her 10 or 15 points of psychological effect. ( Does this make any sense? )
     
  20. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

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    So who do y'all think should have earned the bronze at Worlds?

    I found the ladies competition to be very uninspiring and haven't watched it a second time - it seems to me that Laura earned her medal with a less than stellar and technically watered down skate because those behind her skated even worse.
     
  21. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    I would put Miky Ando third, Carolina Kostner fourth and Laura fift.
     
  22. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    What happened to Phaneuf???

    Anyway, either Miki or Cynthia in 3rd with Kostner in 5th. Laura Lepisto should have been 9th behind Nagasu, Makarova, and Flatt.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2010
  23. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    Believe me, I'm not a Lepisto fan either but I would not have put Lepisto behind Nagasu, Makarova, and Flatt in this particular competition - I truly like Nagasu but she unraveled in that LP. Flatt is competitive but IIRC, she popped an important jump and ur'd other jumps, and Flatt unfortunately loses a lot to her program when she loses her jumps. I don't have the protocols in front of me, but I recall it was very close and I would have placed all of Kostner, Ando and Phaneuf over Lepisto. Ando had quite a comeback, and that was two of the cleanest programs that Kostner and Phaneuf ever skated.

    ETA - Sad thing was that if Mirai had just rotated and stood up on that 2x, she would've been the bronze medalist ahead of all of them
     
  24. Lainerb

    Lainerb New Member

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    Miki should have been the bronze medalist. The fact the technical caller downgraded Miki's final 2loop in her 2axel+2loop+2loop combo was robbery especially considering that Mao's loops were called as rotated.

    But then, perhaps Miki would have gone pro deciding to end her competitive career on a high note, so perhaps finishing off the podium at Olympics and Worlds ignited her competive spirit to come back strong when Worlds are in Japan again this coming season.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2010
  25. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    Now that I think about it, Flatt only landed 4 triples... But they were all harder, so kind of iffy between them and Lepisto beats Flatt on the second mark...

    But definitely, I would still put Nagasu and Ksenia over Lepisto. Nagasu also landed just 3 clean triples, but rotated 4 (I think that DG on the triple toe at the end was unfair.). Nagasu had a huge lead over Lepisto coming into the LP and Nagasu's spins are way better than Lepisto's. Plus Nagasu doesn't have windmill arms. :shuffle:

    As for Makarova, her lack of brand name put her behind. Her program was even better than Nagasu, Flatt, and Lepisto. She was another one that was robbed.
     
  26. all_empty

    all_empty Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. Lepisto, as Europe's top prospect, seems to get an automatic +1 on her PCS.

    I've seen her skate in person and she is fast, but no faster than say, Ando. Her choreography is decent but she hits a few ugly positions in her spins, notably the layback. A three triple, bronze medal-winning free is ridiculous.

    Makarova has shallower stroking and her posture isn't as strong, but she regular produces two or three more triples than Lepisto.

    Hopefully some of these juniors will bring some high-level flip and Lutz combinations and show Lepisto how it's done.
     
  27. Jenna

    Jenna Well-Known Member

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    Only on FSU could a thread on Mao, Yu-Na, and Mirai suddenly turn into a debate over the bronze medal from a competition in March. :rolleyes:

    Seriously can we please continue to discuss what the title of this thread implies? If you feel the need to rehash this topic AGAIN, please move your discussion to the Ladies Free Skate thread of the 2010 World Championships, or better yet, the Trash Can. :lynch:
     
  28. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I thought Phaneuf should have. She was the only one who did 2 almost clean programs (other than a hand down on one jump in the short). Her PCS in the LP were harsh.
     
  29. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Miki didn't win bronze because she didn't add a 2lo or 2t to her 3f in the SP after she fell on the lutz, that's all she needed to have done to have gotten bronze. Actually, she may have even won bronze if her 2lo in the LP hadn't been downgraded, as she was less than a point off bronze (what's the difference in value btwn a 2lo and a 1lo?). But still, I guess she had a meltdown in the SP. Laura was helped out by her high score in the SP, which I personally thought the 64 was a little too high given that she botched the 2a and did a 3lo as her solo jump, but maybe that's just me...
     
  30. RumbleFish

    RumbleFish New Member

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    Ando didn't get the bronze because she completely bombed the SP and was not good enough in the FS to catch up. She was not wuz robbed by any means considering how she was over-scored in program components like she has been all her career. I can't imagine anyone else getting such high PCS with hunched back, two footed skating, long breaks in the middle of program, and overall sluggishness.

    Only time I can ever remember her PCS getting marked correctly was when she received 52 at 08 SA.