Does Jeremy Abbott need a coaching change?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Vash01, Jan 28, 2013.

  1. jlai

    jlai Title-less

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2002
    Messages:
    8,777
    I don't think Yuka and Jason are great technical coaches. Jeremy picked them because he was good technically already, and he needed someone to encourage him to take ownership of his own skating
  2. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2001
    Messages:
    25,111
    I did not read this post before I posted #29 and I am just now seeing this. Great minds do think alike. :lol:

    Todd Eldredge ruined his chances of being in medal contention at the 2002 Olympics by insisting on going for a quad even though he had not mastered it. In retrospect it would not have made a difference in the medal podium, but at least he would have had the satisfaction of skating well.

    ETA: The reason I even thought of the coaching change was that his current coaches used incorrect strategy. If Jeremy wanted to try the quad anyway, the coaches needed to talk him out of it because making the world team had to be his priority at this time.
  3. Lacey

    Lacey Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2007
    Messages:
    8,532
    I haven't followed Jeremy closely enough this year to know if he changed his spin to make it be illegal or if it was illegal all season. I was always under the impression that the skaters had judges who monitored them. And didn't Jeremy do Champs Camp and several GPs? I really would just like to know why no one noticed his pointless spins (wasn't it in both short and long?) until Nationals. Really, in the middle of the biggest competition of the year. Think how that must have disconcerted him. If it were me, I would think about whether or not I was with the right coaches.

    Also, I have to say that Adam Rippon is tremendously improved and much happier with a new coach...
  4. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2003
    Messages:
    9,940
    Hasn't Rippon been doing worse this season?
  5. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2010
    Messages:
    1,520
    My thoughts too. I'm not sure why people wouldn't recommend looking into a change. Again, the Satos seem to be where everyone in both USA and Japan has gone to suck competitively. Alissa is their success story, and she benefited from the positive change from her previous situation. If Abbott can find a suitable system for training elsewhere, he should try it. I think with his talent-level it's worth it.
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2013
  6. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2011
    Messages:
    5,491
    I understand that Jeremy changed the spin after the GP to the illegal one that was pointed out as an issue at Nationals.

    Either way it is a deficiency in himself and the coaching team that no-one bothered to read the rules...
  7. Cheylana

    Cheylana Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2004
    Messages:
    4,925
    There may have been some Sunk Cost Fallacy going on here. Jeremy was chasing the quad in vain all season; perhaps he felt like he needed to stay the course and eventually it would all pay off. Unfortunately for him, it never did this season.
  8. jlai

    jlai Title-less

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2002
    Messages:
    8,777
    Jeremy never does any mid-season program changes well. I was kinda worried when I heard he was rearranging his jumps again.
  9. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2002
    Messages:
    20,569
    I think Jeremy needs to retire and join a show (I'm sure he'll get many offers).

    He's a stunning, unique skater but if it didn't happen already, it's not going to happen now. Especially at his age. He's had plenty of opportunities.
  10. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2010
    Messages:
    1,520
    I don't see what harm going on does. Using your logic, he should have retired years ago, like after 2010 (that might not have been a bad idea then actually). He was never going to get a new personality. Let him try with some new variables like a new coach. He enhances his career and the Olympic year scene just by showing up (it's the only year the public watches), even if due to age he may not have the best odds he's ever had.
    flutzilla1 and (deleted member) like this.
  11. sk9tingfan

    sk9tingfan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2006
    Messages:
    1,944
    Has anyone remembered that Jeremy has a few bulging disks and a history of back injury? I'm not an uber but I would think that this is his biggest problem.
  12. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2002
    Messages:
    13,867
    What was so illegal about the spin anyway? Now I want to see it.... perhaps a double Biellman butt spin ending a la Candeloro with knees on the ice?
  13. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2007
    Messages:
    11,072
    It wasn't anything super- a flying upright spin. The ISU just decided this year that those don't fulfill the requirements, so it would have gotten no points (illegal might have been the wrong word- I think illegal elements incur deductions.) If you go back in the Men's thread you can see his programs at the Detroit Send off show, and he does the spin there.
    Cherub721 and (deleted member) like this.
  14. BelleBway

    BelleBway a monkey stole my title

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2002
    Messages:
    8,934
    Jeremy was 2 points away from going to Worlds so it's not like his skating was at an embarrassingly low level, and next year is an Olympic year. It's so easy to sit at a keyboard and say he should retire, but this is his life and if there is even a chance he could make another Olympic team, he doesn't have anything to lose by going for it. Yeah, there are a lot of younger skaters on an upswing and next year at US Nats will probably be even tougher, but you never get anything if you don't try and give it your best. At least he won't look back and have regrets wondering "what if?"

    Not that I know for sure that he plans to stay in; but unless the injuries get to be too much, I don't think it would make sense to retire now.
  15. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

    Joined:
    May 9, 2002
    Messages:
    11,239
    But it's the second time in 3 years this has happened even though he is the best, most accomplished skater US currently has and has had for a while. He just doesn't have "it" in him. And that's nothing to be ashamed of. For years he has been able to deliver about one strong free skate per season and that's good, just not enough for a elite competitor.

    In my mind, he is heaps and bounds the better skater, but I wouldn't hesitate for a split second to send Miner to Worlds instead (both times, actually).
  16. BelleBway

    BelleBway a monkey stole my title

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2002
    Messages:
    8,934
    So if you don't get the results you want, you should quit trying? Most other countries would be thrilled to be able to send a skater like Abbott to Worlds; the US happens to have a lot of depth in mens skating at the moment. I could see that if he had placed 10th or something, he might want to think about quitting- but 2 points away from the World team? Not so much. Maybe he doesn't have "it" in him, but why shouldn't he give it one more try if that's what he wants? I do think his team needs to be more aggressive about making sure that he gets higher levels on spins etc.

    FWIW I agree with the decision to send Miner to Worlds. But if every skater who didn't make Worlds quit, that would make one hell of a boring competition. ;) (yeah I know, only the older skaters should be put out to pasture...)

    I don't get all these calls for skaters to quit in general. It's their lives, their dreams; it doesn't hurt anyone if they stay in. (especially those like Jeremy who will have a bye to US Nats and would not potentially be preventing someone else from making it through sectionals)
  17. tut88

    tut88 New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2012
    Messages:
    336
    that's what he said in a interview
    he should have gone for a easier and safer jump.
  18. Andofanatic

    Andofanatic Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2012
    Messages:
    90
    No he needs to retire. When you are almost 30 and havent broken through at the amateur level it is never going to happen.
  19. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

    Joined:
    May 9, 2002
    Messages:
    11,239
    Oh I wasn't calling for him to quit, but just that he needs to realize two things:

    1) whatever issue he has must have been there for years now and still can't be fixed by him, his coaches, his physicians and his shrinks. It's the only thing separating him from success. He is too good not to have at least a world medal. But then if this issue can't be fixed for so many years, I am not optimistic that it can magically be fixed next season. Brown and Rippon are fixing their 3axel demons with some success yet he hasn't been able to fix his.

    And since he hasn't been able to skate great more than once each season, even if he skates great and make it out of Nationals 2014, chances are he will have a hard time delivering at Sochi.

    2) The USFS really did the best they could to lowball Farris' PCS and save the bronze for him instead. On the flip side, if they had wanted to keep him on the world team, a tiny little bump on each PCS component would have sufficed. IMO it was a calculated 3rd place for him.
  20. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2007
    Messages:
    11,072
    He is 3 time US Champion and an Olympian. What exactly do you think skaters need to do to "break through"?

    Said it in another thread and I'm going to say it again here: there is no way the 9 judges are good enough at math, and also working together to place the skaters that they would be able to place him just above Farris but off the world team, intentionally. It is possible they judged his PCS more harshly than other skaters, or more favorably- who knows, but I just don't think they can manipulate the results to the extent some people believe. It isn't like voting as a block in 6.0. To keep him off the world team, but at the bronze would have taken an insane level of coordination and calculation. (Okay- if he happens to double the salchow, then give him X for transitions, if his step sequence gets called Level 3, make sure to only give +2 GOE, +3 will ruin everything!)
    flutzilla1 and (deleted member) like this.
  21. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

    Joined:
    May 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,014
    Many folks believe that an Olympic or World medal defines whether or not a skater has had a successful career. They're entitled to believe that; I don't.
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2013
  22. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

    Joined:
    May 9, 2002
    Messages:
    11,239
    That depends on whether his goal is just to make it out of Nationals or to medal at Worlds.

    If it is the former, a safer layout might have done the trick, but even if clean it's still likely that he would lose to Aaron.

    If it is the latter, he really can't leave out the quad. It's the same logic that I am using to predict that Wagner will NOT land the 3flip3toe or 2axel3toe at Worlds when she hasn't even attempted them all season. At least she attempted them at 4CCs last season but it wasn't the third competition (WTT) that she landed both (or was closest to landing them).
  23. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

    Joined:
    May 9, 2002
    Messages:
    11,239
    Well then perhaps he needs a goal for continuing. Does he just want to continue because he loves skating? or because he wants to go to the Olympics one more time? or what?

    He has already accomplished so much - National titles, 4CC medal, GPF champion, etc, is he hungry for more? If not, he should retire like Buttle did, or be content with whatever result he has and not making world teams every once in a while but raveling in the art that he shows. If yes, then he really needs to fix that bug.
  24. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2001
    Messages:
    25,111
    COP is really not different from the 6.0 (what you call a 'voting block'). Do you really believe that the judges work in isolation? They are not a part of a jury pool, to use an analogy. There is communication, politics, and the judges know or at least have some idea of how other judges are likely to score certain skaters. Jeremy is not getting the benefit of doubt at this point because he has disappointed his fans and the USFSA too many times and IMO they are writing him off because of his age too. Nobody needs to say it; they understand each other. FS has always been a political sport and it is going to remain that way, regardless of what scoring system you use.
  25. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2001
    Messages:
    25,111
    You can't really compare his situation to Buttle's. Buttle won an Olympic medal, a world championship. Jeremy has not even made the podium at either one, despite many opportunities. I am sure he is hungry, but unfortunately there is no food for him at this time. If he can work through his issues and use a smart strategy like Lysacek did in 2010, he may have a shot at going to one more Olympics and one more worlds. Barring injury, I don't see him quitting at this time. After the 2014 Olympics though I fully expect him to retire and skate for the love of skating.
  26. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,448
    As long as he is supporting himself with his skating, then you are right, nobody else is hurt by his staying in. Besides, it would be pretty unusual for anyone to retire going into the Olympic year.

    IMO the only other real factors (for just about any skater, really) are 1) what other opportunities is he missing by continuing to compete, and 2) is he doing permanent/chronic injury to his body by continuing to compete?
  27. Cachoo

    Cachoo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2010
    Messages:
    2,414
    I'm with you: I loved his SP, love his artistry and would rather he find a way to stay in one more year unless his back is too bad to compete.
  28. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2007
    Messages:
    11,072
    To be clear, I meant a voting block as a way of cheating under 6.0, not what I think 6.0 was when done correctly. While I do think scores can be manipulated, I do think it is much harder under IJS, especially if the manipulation was to place a skater 3rd. If they want a huge win, that can be done easily.
  29. haribobo

    haribobo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2002
    Messages:
    6,554
    Agree, the SP program was fine but the FS was pretty dull to me. I don't want to say him/coaches aren't trying on the TES side of things, as I have no idea how much the injuries are hampering his abilities. But back when he was with Tom Z. (not that I'm trying to champion Tom Z., but like him or not he also happens to have our current champ) before and around the time he won his first National medal, I remember him as a quirky, fun speedy skater with awesome jumps and spins. Now it all seems kind of slow and heavy and sad. Considering Alissa has also gone the same way, I'm really not very confident that Yuka/Jason can pull him out of his current funk in the dramatic way that he will need...
  30. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2010
    Messages:
    3,720
    I was just watching a clip of Jeremy on YouTube back in 2008 at the GPF. Even though he was already 22 he looked much smaller and faster with big jumps. He looked like a future World Champion and perhaps even a Olympic champion. I only got back into skating around the time of the 2010 Olympics so i didn't see all the hype about his skating but now i see it. Sadly now he's almost 28 and isn't as fast and can't do the jumps like he used to. His body is just worn down.
  31. smileyskate

    smileyskate New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2007
    Messages:
    667
    Just saw a youtube clip of Jeremy playing around doing a little ice dance with Madi Hubbel. (May have been after Nat's gala). I think it'd be nice if he went into ice dance (or pairs). Maybe teaming up with Emily, even if just for exhibs/shows at this point. Yes, I love his skating. I'm not trying to upset any fans, this is just another thought.
  32. shine

    shine Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2002
    Messages:
    4,342
    If he's going to change discpline, I hope it's definitely dance. He's too good for pairs :p
    flutzilla1 and (deleted member) like this.
  33. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2003
    Messages:
    9,940
    The less jumping he has to do the better. However, given his competition nerves, he'll probably fall on a twizzle or something during major competition. :scream:
  34. shine

    shine Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2002
    Messages:
    4,342
    What's really sad though is that he actually has great jump technique and when on his jumps are wonderful.
    kwanette and (deleted member) like this.
  35. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2003
    Messages:
    9,940
    The story of his career. He always had the goods to be a world champion. If he had ever won the title, he'd be considered one of the better skaters to have won it.
  36. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2003
    Messages:
    12,385
    Next season ? :drama:
  37. shine

    shine Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2002
    Messages:
    4,342
    Even Jeff Buttle the skater who everybody thought was an eternal headcase artist won a medal or two as well as one world championship, why can't Abbott??
  38. centerpt1

    centerpt1 Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2007
    Messages:
    740
    1. His injuries apparently won't let him train a quad

    2. He can't get out of Nationals to get to Worlds.

    3, He has very, very terrible skating luck.

    He's too short for Emily, but maybe another ice dancer? It would be fun to watch him-
  39. bek

    bek Guest

    I think once Buttle gave up his quad, everything else got easier for him, and it was just-his time..
  40. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2003
    Messages:
    9,940
    It was different then. During Jeff's day, COP was still pretty new and it was in the transitional period of verteran skaters who grew up under 6.0 adapting to COP and the new ones speedily gaining recognition. Therefore, Jeff wasn't competing with the younger guys who had grown up with the COP in their prime. The quad was also valued less than it is today hence Buttle and Lysaceck winning titles without it.

    Now, skaters have grown up with COP, they have excellent skating skills, transitions, choreography, and now jump difficulty. It's just a different ballgame and I don't know if Buttle could have pulled off a title win with this landscape. Maybe he could have but even he had better performances on the World stage than Abbott. At least Buttle won a World bronze and an Olympic bronze before he won Worlds. Even in 2007 when he placed 6th, Buttle was second after the SP. When has Abbott ever skated well enough at Worlds that ranked him that high? I mean I guess you can argue he was undermarked in 2010 SP, but other than that? Also, has Buttle ever failed to make his World team twice?