Does Chan's lack of OGM take him out of contention for all-time Top 5?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by t.mann, Mar 1, 2014.

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Does Chan's lack of OGM take him out of contention for all-time Top 5?

Poll closed Mar 31, 2014.
  1. Yes

    37 vote(s)
    38.1%
  2. No

    60 vote(s)
    61.9%
  1. t.mann

    t.mann New Member

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    Chan : OSM, 3 WC golds, 2 WC silvers, 7 WR settings, the best ever skating skills

    No in my book. (Still a contender for very high ranking.)
    In your book?
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2014
  2. moviechicko_o

    moviechicko_o New Member

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    Not so much the lack of OGM but the controversial worlds wins with bad performances (2013, 2012).
  3. iarispiralllyof

    iarispiralllyof Active Member

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    Oui, bien sur
  4. t.mann

    t.mann New Member

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    It has to be considered that quite a few people thought/think in hindsight 09WC title had to go to Chan.
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2014
  5. moviechicko_o

    moviechicko_o New Member

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    I've rarely seen complaints about 2009 (an OK clean performance won), certainly not the level of outrage of 2012 and 2013, which led to a loooooot of b--ch fests.
  6. canbelto

    canbelto Well-Known Member

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    Lack of Olympic gold doesn't take him out of contention. What takes him out of contention is the same thing that takes Sasha Cohen out of contention: lack of consistency, and poorly skated LP's. His lack of a reliable triple axel really hurt him.

    Actually he reminds me of Sasha Cohen. Beautiful skater, lovely edges, musicality, etc. Just not ever consistent enough with the jumps.
  7. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    He will be remember for his beautiful skating skills and transitional moves as Midori Ito was for her jumps.

    Saying that, whilst Ito only ever had one world title and an Olympic silver medal to her name, she is still regarded as one of the best female skaters ever.
  8. shady82

    shady82 New Member

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    I wouldn't consider him in the top 5 because of his three world titles, he really only deserved one of them. It's a pity because he's a remarkable skater, and his combination of performances at TEB possibly make for the best competition put forward by a man, ever. But he never could put it together to two near-clean programs. I also think that he was given too much credit for PCS until around the last two seasons when he really blossomed. His Rach and Baroque programs are simply masterpieces.
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2014
  9. attyfan

    attyfan Well-Known Member

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    It isn't even about him; there are at least 5 other skaters for any "all time list" that (IMO) should outrank him ... one of whom (Kurt Browning) doesn't have an Oly medal of any kind. (Other 4 -- Dick Button; Ulrich Salcow; Plush; Grafstrom)
  10. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Member

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    I dont think Chan is top 5 all time, but it is not based on his failure to win the OGM. So I voted no for that simple reason. If he isnt top 5 all time it is more due to his inconsistency, and his high number of controversial wins.
  11. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Member

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    I think he should have won the 2009 Worlds but you could atleast make a case for Evan's win. He skated completely clean in both programs with Chan made 2 obvious mistakes. Neither attempted a quad and had about the same jumps. It cannot be compared to the 2012 and 2013 Worlds results which drew far more controversy about them, fairly or unfairly, than any Worlds in recent memory, and way more than 2009.
  12. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Member

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    His win in 2012 was controversial but it certainly was not a poor performance and it is very unfair to say that. It was still an excellent performance. In the short only one small mistake and in the long one big mistake on a simple jump that was a bit flukish and one other small mistake.
  13. moviechicko_o

    moviechicko_o New Member

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    I'm sorry but while that splat on the double axel attempt was memorably hilarious and makes a great fail gif, that performance left a lot of room for controversy with that event and especially beating Takahashi..
  14. Spun Silver

    Spun Silver Well-Known Member

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    This is how I see it too. He is neither a great artist nor a monster technician who regularly delivers stupendous programs of either sort. I loved him so much in his first year or two as a senior, but something went wrong, for me. Yagudin, Plushy, Curry, Browning, Takahashi - there is my list.
  15. Prancer

    Prancer Ray Chill Staff Member

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    Wouldn't the answer depend a lot on whose top five list was in question?

    I mean, if it was Top Five Olympic Gold Medalists, he'd obviously be out of the running. But if was My Top Five Men Skaters, maybe he wouldn't be?
  16. moviechicko_o

    moviechicko_o New Member

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    Also kinda depends on if he retires or continues competing (and if he can keep up). But currently, what puts him at a disadvantage for legend/greatest status is his terrible consistency. As for his technical vs. artistic sides, he has good artistry but not like Takahashi amazing and while he is a consistent quad lander, his triple axel is out of control and he falls a lot on random stuff.

    If I'm deciding on "greats": Artistic - Curry, Takahashi. Technical - Plushenko. Good mix of both - Browning, Yagudin.
  17. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    He is one of the great skaters of our time, but I wouldn't place him in the top 5 all time. To me, the top 5 all time would be Dick Button, Evgeny Plushenko, Grafstrom, Salchow, Yagudin.

    If we drop Button, Grafstrom & Salchow, since they were from the mainly CF era, and considered skaters starting from 1980,

    Plushenko, Yagudin, Browning, Boitano, Hamilton, Orser would place ahead of him. Out of these, only Browning is without an Olympic medal, but I am having difficulty dropping him from the list. By contrast, Stojko was a pioneer (first 4-3 combination) and he won 3 world titles and two Olympic silver medals, but I am having difficulty placing him above Chan because of Chan's great basic skating skills and the beauty of his 4-3.

    However, Chan has not retired yet, so he could potentially win more world titles and if he sticks around till 2018, he will be one of the contenders/challengers for the gold.
  18. floskate

    floskate Vacant

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    I agree the consistency is the question mark on his career thus far. But he has had some utterly brilliant skates that on their own merits would make a great argument to be regarded as amongst the greatest performances of all time.
  19. essence_of_soy

    essence_of_soy Well-Known Member

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    Good if somewhat inconsistent skater.
    Hot or cold connection to the music and the audience.
    Poor PR skills.
  20. MrLucky

    MrLucky New Member

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    If/After Hanyu wins a second OGM in four years Chan will not even be remembered as the best of his era let alone all-time.

    I do think Chan is a very gifted skater and will be remembered more like Lambiel.

    The greatest champions in any sport have great heart. Chan's failure to ever beat Plushenko, who was way past his physical prime speaks volumes.

    Same with his controversial win over an aging Dai. Chan's reputation win over Dennis Ten is not what earns a skater a best of all time ranking. To the contrary it makes it clear he was an average competitor, who had great SS but technical issues on axel jumps that he never solved.

    Perhaps he will continue and that could change things. He could win a 4th WC in a few weeks which would be a nice way to go out.
  21. my little pony

    my little pony snarking for AZE

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    is this what you meant to say?
    jamesy and (deleted member) like this.
  22. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    Trick question? I'm having a hard time seeing him as definite top 5 WITH an OGM. So, no, it's not the lack of it that takes him out of the running. 5 is a very small number. This poll says more about his overhype than his skating IMO.
  23. Meteorlight

    Meteorlight Active Member

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    This was my thought exactly, and why I voted no.
  24. t.mann

    t.mann New Member

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    I(OP) realize the poll question has a possibility of double question or inducing question unintendedly.
    Anyway, because I (who am an admirer for his skating, not his uber) thought Chan is a phenomenal skater very rarely coming, I (mis?-)guessed many users already would be considering him as an all-time top * placer.
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2014
  25. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    Totally agree.:respec:
  26. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    Based on the rules, I think there is some justification for Chan's wins over those two. Only after stronger jumpers like Fernandez and Hanyu came on the scene that Chan was truly challenged, particularly by the latter. That's when his weakness as a competitor was exposed. May be he would have developed it had he not gotten wins that easily early in his career. I would really like him to stick around, get better and be in OGM contention in 2018, but not as heavily as he was in Sochi.
  27. MrLucky

    MrLucky New Member

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    Dennis is not necessarily a better jumper than Chan (maybe his 3A is better but that hardly makes him unique) and Chan's last two WC's for better or worse were highly controversial. Not to mention a few controversial splat filled GP wins.

    If someone wants to start a poll over who is skating's most controversial champion I think Chan definitely would make the top five.

    If so many of the best minds in skating think Chan has remarkable skills I won't argue against that.

    It would be nice for Patrick if he and Yuzu skate lights out at Worlds and Patrick comes out on top. If it is just another typical COP Men's splatfest and Chan wins I don't see that enhancing his legacy as much.

    Thinking of Yuna and how well she skated in Sochi is what enhances a skater's reputation.

    Losing the Team SP to Yuzu and Plushenko then losing the individual event to a sloppy 19 year old Yuzu at his first Olympics is just not the stuff that creates the greatest best of all-time legacy.
    Japanfan and (deleted member) like this.
  28. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    I think he could make the top 5 in the most controversial world champions, but if the Olympic champions (all disciplines included) are thrown in, he won't be anywhere near the top 5 (may be it helped that he did not win, in that case:lol:)
  29. elif

    elif Active Member

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    I voted No. Because he is not in all time top 5 so ''you can't lose something you never had'' :rolleyes:
  30. liv

    liv Well-Known Member

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    For me it depends on top 5 what. If you mean champion, then yes, his lack of title takes him out of top 5, but if you mean skater, then maybe no.

    I think his ability to fight for a title, fight against his rivals and win is lacking, unlike Yagudin, Plushenko etc, who almost always rose to the challenge and put their hearts on the line. They were true champions who brought the audience in and made you marvel at them.

    If you mean as a skater, when his jumps are on and his program is complete, then no. His skating skills plus his technical ability make him almost unbeatable and he's fantastic to watch just glide around on the ice. His passion is not as evident as other skaters, but his skating skills are superb.
  31. floskate

    floskate Vacant

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    It seems that he could possibly be destined to be remembered as the Trixi Schuba of IJS. I think history will judge him much more fairly and in 30 years time he will be remembered as the phenomenal skater he is, despite the results. Just as Trixi is respected with time for her incredible abilities when in reality, at the time of her wins she was treated less than generously by some. Had the internet existed she would have been vilified.
  32. miki88

    miki88 New Member

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    Interesting comparison. I never thought about it but it fits well. I feel Patrick Chan is a skater to be respected more than loved. His skating skills and technique are undeniable, but he lacks the charisma and personality of a Daisuke or Yagudin that attract the audience's attention. I have felt the overemphasis on the technical details of skating in recent years has resulted in outcomes that have puzzled viewers, probably not unlike when Trixi Schuba was winning over Lynn.
  33. MrLucky

    MrLucky New Member

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    I agree with this.

    I was also thinking about what makes a great skating legacy.

    I was always a big Lambiel fan. He won lots of medals but might not make a "top five greatest list." But his musicality might be top five. His spins as well. He possessed an elegance on the ice few have ever matched.

    In the modern era Plushenko owns longevity and at a legendary level. He is probably the greatest jumper in history. He is one of the greatest competitors in history. And he owned the ice like few others.

    When I think about Patrick I guess he owns skating skills. But what else? In the post 2010 era the top jumpers are doing more than one type of quad and have solid 3a's. But not Patrick.
    His spins are good but not Hall of Fame caliber. His glide is great but did he ever shake the "skating by numbers feel" we see from too many COP skaters? He did a few times and produced magical performances.

    As a competitor how does Chan compare to the all-tme greats?

    Did he own the ice the way the Cranston, Curry, Browning, Yagudin, Lambiel, Plushy, Dai, and Yuzu do?
    Was he an innovator on the level of Button, Petkovich (he practically invented "air" when we consider jumps - I remember him and your great video tribute!) Browning or even Elvis?

    Having great skating skills counts but might not be enough to be a top five all-time skater.

    Patrick is still young and who know what he might show if he continues.
    I would look forward to seeing four more years.
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2014
  34. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    No, because he already was no where near contending for Top 5 of all time, or even Top 5 for the time I've been watching skating. If you really mean "all time" then spots probably need to be reserved for Ulrich Salchow and Dick Button and maybe Gillis Grafstrom, which doesn't leave too many spots for modern era skaters. I'd rank Curry, Cousins, Hamilton, Petrenko, Plushenko and even Browning above Chan, arguably also Boitano, Orser, and Yagudin.
  35. moviechicko_o

    moviechicko_o New Member

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    I think the personality/likability factor is also something against him. A lot of people just don't like him for whatever reason - maybe it's the Anne Hathaway unknown but many people just seem to find it hard to root for him (and I'm sure the controversial wins didn't help). That's not to say all the greats are nice and humble (obviously not), but you kind of have to a little swag to back up a larger than life persona, which is what made the Yags vs Plushy stuff so great and it's something Patrick clearly doesn't have.
  36. Spun Silver

    Spun Silver Well-Known Member

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    Patrick's personality hasn't helped him win hearts. With the greatest ones at least their personalities dont get in the way. But Patrick's is always doing just that. A real pity, because if the public loves you they will forgive mistakes.
  37. shady82

    shady82 New Member

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    I think Patrick made remarks at some point that were interpreted as arrogant the past two years. Not sure what they were, but I remember he was criticized at GPF and TEB this year for this.

    With that said, I actually wouldn't think tbat Patrick winning in Sochi would have been controversial. He's a different skater now than he was 2 years ago. Back then, he had great SS but was vastly overrated. He should have been getting lower PCS than Takahashi back then but didn't. Now, he should be getting the highest PCS (as he is getting).
  38. moviechicko_o

    moviechicko_o New Member

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    I don't think it's just the arrogance, but it's a certain way you pull off that arrogance. Like I think Patrick jumped on that arrogance train way too early. You're supposed to become a legend first and then act like you rule. For him, it just seemed like umm who died and made him king... Also he always seems to make fun of Plushenko's advanced age before an Olympics yet he still loses to him lol.

    Also arrogance is more acceptable when your competitors are also that way, but recently you have nice guys like Yuzuru and Denis and Dai, while Patrick seems out of place with his attitude.
  39. MrLucky

    MrLucky New Member

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    Like if you "wanna talk the talk you gotta walk the walk, or in this case "skate the skate" :)
    I was hoping for a "Battle of the Brians" type showdown in Sochi but both skaters fell far short of what we saw back in Calgary.
  40. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    *shrug* everyone and their kid cousin seems to have hated Sonja Henie's guts, yet she'd be on my top 5 list in a heartbeat.