Does 'Chanflation' exist?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Maofan7, Apr 4, 2013.

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Does 'Chanflation' exist?

Poll closed May 5, 2013.
  1. Yes

    127 vote(s)
    60.2%
  2. No

    79 vote(s)
    37.4%
  3. Don't know

    5 vote(s)
    2.4%
  1. bek

    bek Guest

    Wylie didn't put out the kind of technical performance Ten did. In general I want to say I don't necessarily believe one fall one mistake and your out I don't disagree with B/S winning Olympic Gold over S/P.

    However I do have a pretty big issue with people making multiple major errors and winning due to their huge PCS. My problem is PCS are very subjective in a lot of ways and they concept that errors shouldn't be taken into account at all.

    I'm wondering if what we need is a clean program bonus, but I wouldn't mind if the clean program bonus got tied to the base value of the skate....

    I will say that watching Laura Lepisto double most of her jumps while the program had no falls, I failed to consider it "clean" at least at this level of competition. And I do think the level of the competition counts.
     
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  2. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    Yes, although there is a degree as how far a system should go, just like rewarding on quad jumps. The system has to endeavor to find balance between rewarding risk-taking and rewarding clean programs.

    The measurement of rewarding a clean program alone can significantly undermine the athletic aspect of this sport. Not just jumps, but also spins and footworks, which, I believe as a sport, need to be encouraged in the boundary pushing. Using cleanness alone measures a competition result is too shallow an approach. There are a lot going on beneath the mistakes which need to be analysed before making a decision for the placement.

    Exactly. No one, no system on earth could eliminate the outcry from the people who are dissatisfied with the results of a competition that is involved with subjectivity. So it is perfectly normal.:p

    True, but that is impossible given the nature of this sport. I think most of the people, fans and skaters themselves, don't want to see this.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2013
  3. vodkashot

    vodkashot New Member

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    It exists, insofar as reputation scoring exists.

    But Chan is hardly the first or the only skater to benefit from reputation scoring.
     
  4. Jenny81

    Jenny81 Member

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    I love Chan but....... :slinkaway
     
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  5. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I dont know why people focus only on PCS, as Chan is grossly overscored on both PCS and GOE, and the inflated GOE matter a great deal in giving him his 6 fall cushion on the field as well.
     
  6. PeterG

    PeterG Argle-Bargle-ist

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    Of course Chanflation exists. As does:

    Kwan-itis
    Yagudin-osis
    Virtue and Moir-ostomy
    Berezhnaya and Sikharulidze-algia, and of course
    Grishuk and Platov-orrhea
     
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  7. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    And there are also lots of people saying that his win was fair under the way the judging system works. But I guess you can't hear them because you are screaming so loudly about how unfair it all is :drama:
     
  8. DFJ

    DFJ Well-Known Member

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    God, this is tiresome.
     
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  9. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Like it or not people feel that way whether or not his scores are justified. The only way for this to be fixed is to tweak the scoring system yet again or for Chan to actually perform up to his potential at Worlds/Olympics and shut all of his critics up. It happened in the SP at Worlds, so maybe he'll be able to do it for both the SP and LP next season.
     
  10. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    I don't think Chan benefits from reputation scoring per se because his skating is actually lovely. Even his attempted athletic content is good. The problem is that his athletic execution lacks, but the judging system does not properly account for poor execution.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2013
  11. algonquin

    algonquin Well-Known Member

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    People seem to have forgotten his short program from this year's world. I agree with DFJ, this is getting tiresome.
     
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  12. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    LOL, last season, you were at a 5 falls cushion. Now that he barely won Worlds with 2 falls, you are at 6 falls cushion !
    I can't wait for next season, and you claiming about 8 falls cushion !!!! :p
     
  13. Sparks

    Sparks Well-Known Member

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    You forgot YuNacceleration
     
  14. NYScorp6

    NYScorp6 Member

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    The scandal and travesty really would be that many casual viewers of skating watching the Olypmpic games would view the competition as a popularity contest rather than a sport. That certainly could be said of the 2013 Mens result at Worlds. The ISU and the judges should be extremely aware that another resut such as that especially at the Winter Games has the potential of being a death blow to figure skating as a legitimate sporting event.

    For the record I'm from North America and I agreed with the original result at the 2002 Olympics, I felt B/S deserved to win the Gold medal outright. And I felt all the crying, pouting and moaning by S/P and especially the media (especially Scott) was extremely poor sportsmanship. The teams were close for sure, but someone wins and the other comes in 2nd. BTW: Scott seems to have changed his tune now that this current situation is brewing. It is refreshing actually.
     
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  15. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    He had only 2 falls, but atleast 4 falls worth of mistakes, and yet still won (I chuckle as I even type that word) over a guy skating out of his skin, so yes he has atleast a 5 fall cushion to the judges. As for my margins slowly increasingly, well that makes sense. As time goes on the Chan lurve and cushion he has in the eyes of the judges has gotten larger all the time. I predicted that was happening and would continue to happen 3 whole years ago, and like always have been proven pretty much right.

    However for the first time yet regarding Chan I predict it will go in the opposite direction in a big way next season. The huge controversy of his win at this years Worlds which has disgusted virtually the whole skating World, and created an even bigger outcry than his win at Worlds last year which was in actuality probably even worse (though he skated less bad last year, but his competition was better), and after 3 years of insanity the judges are going to be very careful in scoring Chan next season. A controversy even close to on par with Worlds this year and figure skating will be atleast temporarily removed from the Olympics altogether. I wouldnt even be surprised if it goes the other direction next year, instead of having to skate only 55% as well as his nearest competitor to win as has been the case since 2010 for Chan, in the 2013-2014 season, especialy at the 2014 Olympics, he might have to skate 10-15% better than his nearest competitor to win.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2013
  16. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    judgejudy, he won by one point over a guy who also had at least one fall worth of mistakes (doubling the flip). So he had four falls worth of mistakes, Ten had one fall worth of mistakes, so over Ten Chan has a three fall barrier. Using your logic. And this is what I can't stand. I can believe Chanflation exists in as much as I \believe that Chan's scores are unfairly high for what he puts on the ice. But when you have people twisting facts, ignoring truths and dismissing context it manages to so thoroughly change my mind. It's actually amusing.

    I voted I don't know, for what it's worth.
     
  17. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

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    Then you should also mention Davis and White-omy ;). While I think that their win at this year's Worlds was fair, I kind of agree with people who doubt a World record in an SD which was not completely ideal either. Not to mention other cases where wins were fair, but the scores were exaggerated (imho).
     
  18. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Chanflation is just an unfortunate label that came about as a reaction to/ result of the current phenomenon of judges being overly and consistently mesmerized by Patrick Chan's SS combined with his fairly quick and masterful command of quads (despite the fact his 3-axel, technical consistency and overall artistry are not generally as spectacular). The IJS scoring system is simply a joke and the excuse successfully leaned upon by some fans, and of course by ISU's anonymous judges who in fact IJS was partly created to protect in the first place. :p

    The question is not whether Chanflation exists (it's associative and reactionary slang with a variety of meanings, depending upon who you ask). The real question (at least in my mind) is whether or not ISU and judges will learn anything from the latest evidence that IJS and ISU judges' decision-making are whack.
     
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  19. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

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    Yeah JJ is at it once again. Just because she says it is so, apparently is must be so. I really wish she'd give it a rest for a while. Wherever there is a topic about Chan or the marking of men's skating at the present time, you can be sure she will enter the thread and reiterate her reasons why SHE is right.
     
  20. numbers123

    numbers123 Well-Known Member

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    whether or not it exists, one has to admit that Patrick is a talented skater. He plays by the rules, knows what the IJS is about and skates to the rules. Even if he falls, he does what needs to be done to get the points. Am I his biggest fan? No. Do I like that he gets the points despite the falls (yeah, I know that technically they aren't according to the rulebook)? no But he is a smart skater.

    I suspect part of the :mitchell: issue here is the same thing that occurred with Michelle vs. world, Evengi vs. world, YuNa vs. the world. Some people want to see the variety in skating or the unknown factor in skating - sort of like the Rudi Galindo win. I also find it tiring that some people think I am anti-Canada because of my preferences in skaters :shrug:
     
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  21. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    No similarities at all when it comes to those skaters. Michelle had to skate perfectly to win all her big titles. At the 96 Worlds, 2000 Worlds, and 2001 Worlds she had to skate out of her skin, and she still barely won each. 2003 Worlds also was flawless to win. 1998 Worlds was her worst performance with 1 fall on a double axel as her only mistake over 2 programs.

    Evgeny skated perfectly to win all his major titles apart from the 2004 Worlds where he had a simple fall on nothing at the end, and a couple minor bobbles in the 2003 Worlds (where he edged Goebel who only landed the same # of quads and also had a couple bobbles and isnt near the skater Evgeny is). Yu Na Kim also skated virtually perfectly to win all her titles, the only foot she put wrong being a missed triple salchow in the LP at the 2001 Worlds. When she faltered even a little bit the judges always bumped her out of gold, even when others made mistakes too- 2007 Worlds, 2008 Worlds, 2010 Worlds, 2011 Worlds.

    Chan isnt allowed to lose no matter what he does. He could have his gold medals mailed to him, and not bother attending as it is a foregone conclusion no matter how terribly he performs or how amazingly well anyone else does, he will be placed 1st. Atleast others that dominated totally like Irina Rodnina still had to actually skate for their titles, they couldnt be mailed to them.
     
  22. lowtherlore

    lowtherlore New Member

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    I just rewatched men’s final group at the last worlds.

    Thank God Chan was declared the overall winner.

    While I wish the world champion to have skated more cleanly, I’m amazed by that people, even the supposedly knowledgeable fans at this forum, discount the obvious margin in quality of overall skating, which was rightfully reflected in the final score. Ten is no match to Chan in quality.
     
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  23. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

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    Give me a friggin break lady. Chan has lost -- numerous times. Even this season. If what you said was really true, he would have won gold in Vancouver instead of Lysacek and have won gold in everything since. Well go and take a look at his record and you'll see that he HASN'T won every time he skates. Your hated of Patrick and how you never miss an opportunity to say the same thing over and over and over again, tends to make you look pathetic. You really need to get yourself another hobby besides Chan-bashing. It's really gotten old.
     
  24. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    I agree in part. As currently written, most of the Program Components are element-blind. If you look at Skating Skills, for example, there is nothing in the description and scoring criteria to tell a judge to consider what jumps the skater did or didn't land. So, as long as the skater is performing with his usual speed and edge quality, this score should remain pretty constant from program to program for any given skater. OTOH, I think Interpretation and Performance/Execution should be reduced when a skater has multiple errors, because jumping errors do take away from the musical interpretation and effectiveness of the program. Personally, I can't argue with Chan still getting the event's best Skating Skills mark even with two falls, I can and do argue with him getting a big mark for how he interprets the music while sitting on his ass or stumbling out of a jump.

    I think that is how the judges are reading it, but I really do not think that was what was intended when the Program Components were first developed. It would not take much rewording to make clearer to the judges that at least some of the components need to reflect the totality of the programs effectiveness. For skating skills, they could add flow and sureness of edges on element entrances and exits, for example.

    ITA, This is why I think the ISU has to revise the PCS write-up to make sure judges are looking at the totality of the program and its effectiveness as a performance when scoring them. It has become a credibility issue. Right now, only a small community of skating fans and journalists have noticed, but they really should not want this kind of result to happen under the bigger light of the Olympics. After SLC, the IOC's patience with figure skating has already grown pretty thin.
     
  25. Lil Sarah

    Lil Sarah Member

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    I will admit I haven't read the whole thread, but in my opnion:

    Even if people believe "Chanflation" exists, it has existed as "inflation" for years and years. Some (not all) top skaters have been overmarked at times, and it's part of the history of this sport, like it or not.
     
  26. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

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    A lot of people also felt that McKyla Marooney's silver medal in the vault event at the 2012 Summer Olympics was not justified and she should have even finished off the podium because she fell on the landing of her second vault but the judges held her up because she was American. How would the Gymnastics Federation be supposed to react to that, tweak the scoring system just to humor casual viewers of artistic gymnastics? Well, I'm not sure that a professional body like a federation would be willing to concede to the general public on technical matters for the mere reason the audiences seem to believe they know gymnastics and what the rules should be like better than the technicians of the sport.

    With figure skating, of course I could be all wrong but I have the feeling it's not the ISJ per se most people are unhappy with but rather how this system has been (incorrectly) applied to Patrick Chan over the years and if my assumption is correct, a much simpler way to fix the matter than change the rules would be for the ISU to invite Todd Eldredge, Johnny Weir, Evgeni Plushenko, Oleg Vassiliev and Jackie Wong to serve as official judges, as well as a few other people who have a problem with Patrick's scores and who've been involved in figure skating in various capacities for many years. I suppose no one would ever question their knowledge of figure skating or their objectivity.:)
     
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  27. elif

    elif Active Member

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    Actually they changed scoring system for vault. Also Amanar vaults base value lowered 6.5 to 6.3 too.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Q2jLCn9Fko
     
  28. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Have to burst your bubble lowtherlore: Don't put the men's final results in London, Ontario on God -- cuz He sure as heaven and hell had NUTHIN' to do with it. :2faced:


    Yeah, yep, I'm certain that a lot of people wish Chan had skated more cleanly on plenty of occasions as a matter of fact, most of all Patrick Chan himself. I keep pointing out to all the Chan/ ISU judges apologists that if the result is just so fine and cool, then why was Chan apologizing to fans and to the London audience??? Was it for the fact that they bent over backward holding in their boos because he’s favored son?


    Ya know what, I'm willing to accept the fact that Ten had to skate squeaky clean to get the gold since he'd never been that near the podium (forget about top spot) in a big time senior event before. Even the BBC commentator noted just before D10 skated that he needed to be "absolutely clean" to win. However, get real! Denis Ten may not have Chan's above average mastery of the blade (who does?) but Denis delivered in both programs and actually won the long program. Also, Denis performed two gorgeous triple axels, while Patrick Chan DID NOT! So, are you saying that landing two beautiful quads (one in combo) trumps two gorgeous triple axels (one in combo) along with a beautiful quad? And that staying on one's feet while interpreting a unique two-part program theme is not better than a skater falling twice, stumbling out of another jump and doubling a planned triple??? Denis Ten's only mistakes were doubling two planned triples, however, the first instance: doubling of one of two planned triples in the three jump combination didn't much matter cuz most often skaters do a 3-2-2 in a three-jump combo. So, the one mistake that actually made the difference is the two-jump combo where Ten doubled the 3-flip.

    And lowtherlore, I don't know what your definition of quality is -- maybe it's "skating while Patrick Chan," which means in that case, you don't think anyone else possesses quality. There is no denying that Chan holds the patent on ubiquitous quality SS (but that doesn't actually make him look better than most skaters while impersonating a Zamboni). ;) What you apparently fail to recognize is that Denis skated more cleanly and more cohesively which is quality in the eyes of the majority of viewers, and in the eyes of the majority of skating cognoscenti (which may not include ISU, btw). However, even some judges on the judging panel would probably disagree with you that Denis is "no match" to Chan in quality. The quality of Chan's SS, are insufficient to overcome his consistent errors in important competitions -- and that's a majority fan opinion, believe it or NOT.

    If we're doing a breakdown, like is often done in tennis, Chan wins on SS, speed and ice coverage; and D10 and Chan are even on transitions, while D10 wins on smooth natural flow, innate artistry, interpretation, choreography, technical achievement, performance execution, program concept, and enthusiastic audience reaction. After the standing ovation for D10's performance, I seriously doubt that Canadian fans would have been pissed off had Denis edged Chan for the overall win.

    What's amazin' in my view is the way exaggeration on both sides of the coin continues on and on. Those driving the nail through everyone's head re the point of Chan's consistent major wins with too many errors are obviously exceedingly annoyed. Chan fans kept a bit quiet at first in the face of Chan's clear embarrassment but now they are apparently hoping what happened in London and Nice will not repeat in Sochi. And so to drown out those with long memories, Chan fans as usual are overly relying on faulty IJS scoring system and Chan's humongous SS, seeming to feel that by constantly saying Chan is so much better than everyone else really really, that maybe it will be accepted as true. IMO, the only way that's going to be true is if Chan quits making errors on his way to big judge-assisted wins over skaters who have superb qualities and who overall skate better.
     
  29. algonquin

    algonquin Well-Known Member

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    I was there that evening and can't speak for every Canadian fan, but personally I wish that Denis had won the gold. It certainly would have saved this going on ad nauseam.
     
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  30. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    "Enthusiastic audience reaction" is not an IJS judging criterion.