Does 'Chanflation' exist?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Maofan7, Apr 4, 2013.

?

Does 'Chanflation' exist?

Poll closed May 5, 2013.
  1. Yes

    127 vote(s)
    60.2%
  2. No

    79 vote(s)
    37.4%
  3. Don't know

    5 vote(s)
    2.4%
  1. algonquin

    algonquin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2003
    Messages:
    2,933
    People seem to have forgotten his short program from this year's world. I agree with DFJ, this is getting tiresome.
    Maofan7 and (deleted member) like this.
  2. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2003
    Messages:
    12,393
    LOL, last season, you were at a 5 falls cushion. Now that he barely won Worlds with 2 falls, you are at 6 falls cushion !
    I can't wait for next season, and you claiming about 8 falls cushion !!!! :p
  3. Sparks

    Sparks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2002
    Messages:
    7,169
    You forgot YuNacceleration
  4. NYScorp6

    NYScorp6 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2009
    Messages:
    55
    The scandal and travesty really would be that many casual viewers of skating watching the Olypmpic games would view the competition as a popularity contest rather than a sport. That certainly could be said of the 2013 Mens result at Worlds. The ISU and the judges should be extremely aware that another resut such as that especially at the Winter Games has the potential of being a death blow to figure skating as a legitimate sporting event.

    For the record I'm from North America and I agreed with the original result at the 2002 Olympics, I felt B/S deserved to win the Gold medal outright. And I felt all the crying, pouting and moaning by S/P and especially the media (especially Scott) was extremely poor sportsmanship. The teams were close for sure, but someone wins and the other comes in 2nd. BTW: Scott seems to have changed his tune now that this current situation is brewing. It is refreshing actually.
    hanca and (deleted member) like this.
  5. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,349
    He had only 2 falls, but atleast 4 falls worth of mistakes, and yet still won (I chuckle as I even type that word) over a guy skating out of his skin, so yes he has atleast a 5 fall cushion to the judges. As for my margins slowly increasingly, well that makes sense. As time goes on the Chan lurve and cushion he has in the eyes of the judges has gotten larger all the time. I predicted that was happening and would continue to happen 3 whole years ago, and like always have been proven pretty much right.

    However for the first time yet regarding Chan I predict it will go in the opposite direction in a big way next season. The huge controversy of his win at this years Worlds which has disgusted virtually the whole skating World, and created an even bigger outcry than his win at Worlds last year which was in actuality probably even worse (though he skated less bad last year, but his competition was better), and after 3 years of insanity the judges are going to be very careful in scoring Chan next season. A controversy even close to on par with Worlds this year and figure skating will be atleast temporarily removed from the Olympics altogether. I wouldnt even be surprised if it goes the other direction next year, instead of having to skate only 55% as well as his nearest competitor to win as has been the case since 2010 for Chan, in the 2013-2014 season, especialy at the 2014 Olympics, he might have to skate 10-15% better than his nearest competitor to win.
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2013
  6. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Messages:
    1,592
    judgejudy, he won by one point over a guy who also had at least one fall worth of mistakes (doubling the flip). So he had four falls worth of mistakes, Ten had one fall worth of mistakes, so over Ten Chan has a three fall barrier. Using your logic. And this is what I can't stand. I can believe Chanflation exists in as much as I \believe that Chan's scores are unfairly high for what he puts on the ice. But when you have people twisting facts, ignoring truths and dismissing context it manages to so thoroughly change my mind. It's actually amusing.

    I voted I don't know, for what it's worth.
  7. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2011
    Messages:
    1,373
    Then you should also mention Davis and White-omy ;). While I think that their win at this year's Worlds was fair, I kind of agree with people who doubt a World record in an SD which was not completely ideal either. Not to mention other cases where wins were fair, but the scores were exaggerated (imho).
  8. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2009
    Messages:
    4,508
    Chanflation is just an unfortunate label that came about as a reaction to/ result of the current phenomenon of judges being overly and consistently mesmerized by Patrick Chan's SS combined with his fairly quick and masterful command of quads (despite the fact his 3-axel, technical consistency and overall artistry are not generally as spectacular). The IJS scoring system is simply a joke and the excuse successfully leaned upon by some fans, and of course by ISU's anonymous judges who in fact IJS was partly created to protect in the first place. :p

    The question is not whether Chanflation exists (it's associative and reactionary slang with a variety of meanings, depending upon who you ask). The real question (at least in my mind) is whether or not ISU and judges will learn anything from the latest evidence that IJS and ISU judges' decision-making are whack.
    hanca and (deleted member) like this.
  9. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2001
    Messages:
    3,804
    Yeah JJ is at it once again. Just because she says it is so, apparently is must be so. I really wish she'd give it a rest for a while. Wherever there is a topic about Chan or the marking of men's skating at the present time, you can be sure she will enter the thread and reiterate her reasons why SHE is right.
  10. numbers123

    numbers123 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2005
    Messages:
    30,765
    whether or not it exists, one has to admit that Patrick is a talented skater. He plays by the rules, knows what the IJS is about and skates to the rules. Even if he falls, he does what needs to be done to get the points. Am I his biggest fan? No. Do I like that he gets the points despite the falls (yeah, I know that technically they aren't according to the rulebook)? no But he is a smart skater.

    I suspect part of the :mitchell: issue here is the same thing that occurred with Michelle vs. world, Evengi vs. world, YuNa vs. the world. Some people want to see the variety in skating or the unknown factor in skating - sort of like the Rudi Galindo win. I also find it tiring that some people think I am anti-Canada because of my preferences in skaters :shrug:
    Maofan7 and (deleted member) like this.
  11. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,349
    No similarities at all when it comes to those skaters. Michelle had to skate perfectly to win all her big titles. At the 96 Worlds, 2000 Worlds, and 2001 Worlds she had to skate out of her skin, and she still barely won each. 2003 Worlds also was flawless to win. 1998 Worlds was her worst performance with 1 fall on a double axel as her only mistake over 2 programs.

    Evgeny skated perfectly to win all his major titles apart from the 2004 Worlds where he had a simple fall on nothing at the end, and a couple minor bobbles in the 2003 Worlds (where he edged Goebel who only landed the same # of quads and also had a couple bobbles and isnt near the skater Evgeny is). Yu Na Kim also skated virtually perfectly to win all her titles, the only foot she put wrong being a missed triple salchow in the LP at the 2001 Worlds. When she faltered even a little bit the judges always bumped her out of gold, even when others made mistakes too- 2007 Worlds, 2008 Worlds, 2010 Worlds, 2011 Worlds.

    Chan isnt allowed to lose no matter what he does. He could have his gold medals mailed to him, and not bother attending as it is a foregone conclusion no matter how terribly he performs or how amazingly well anyone else does, he will be placed 1st. Atleast others that dominated totally like Irina Rodnina still had to actually skate for their titles, they couldnt be mailed to them.
  12. lowtherlore

    lowtherlore New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2006
    Messages:
    390
    I just rewatched men’s final group at the last worlds.

    Thank God Chan was declared the overall winner.

    While I wish the world champion to have skated more cleanly, I’m amazed by that people, even the supposedly knowledgeable fans at this forum, discount the obvious margin in quality of overall skating, which was rightfully reflected in the final score. Ten is no match to Chan in quality.
    alilou and (deleted member) like this.
  13. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2001
    Messages:
    3,804
    Give me a friggin break lady. Chan has lost -- numerous times. Even this season. If what you said was really true, he would have won gold in Vancouver instead of Lysacek and have won gold in everything since. Well go and take a look at his record and you'll see that he HASN'T won every time he skates. Your hated of Patrick and how you never miss an opportunity to say the same thing over and over and over again, tends to make you look pathetic. You really need to get yourself another hobby besides Chan-bashing. It's really gotten old.
  14. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,458
    I agree in part. As currently written, most of the Program Components are element-blind. If you look at Skating Skills, for example, there is nothing in the description and scoring criteria to tell a judge to consider what jumps the skater did or didn't land. So, as long as the skater is performing with his usual speed and edge quality, this score should remain pretty constant from program to program for any given skater. OTOH, I think Interpretation and Performance/Execution should be reduced when a skater has multiple errors, because jumping errors do take away from the musical interpretation and effectiveness of the program. Personally, I can't argue with Chan still getting the event's best Skating Skills mark even with two falls, I can and do argue with him getting a big mark for how he interprets the music while sitting on his ass or stumbling out of a jump.

    I think that is how the judges are reading it, but I really do not think that was what was intended when the Program Components were first developed. It would not take much rewording to make clearer to the judges that at least some of the components need to reflect the totality of the programs effectiveness. For skating skills, they could add flow and sureness of edges on element entrances and exits, for example.

    ITA, This is why I think the ISU has to revise the PCS write-up to make sure judges are looking at the totality of the program and its effectiveness as a performance when scoring them. It has become a credibility issue. Right now, only a small community of skating fans and journalists have noticed, but they really should not want this kind of result to happen under the bigger light of the Olympics. After SLC, the IOC's patience with figure skating has already grown pretty thin.
  15. Lil Sarah

    Lil Sarah Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2007
    Messages:
    216
    I will admit I haven't read the whole thread, but in my opnion:

    Even if people believe "Chanflation" exists, it has existed as "inflation" for years and years. Some (not all) top skaters have been overmarked at times, and it's part of the history of this sport, like it or not.
  16. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2008
    Messages:
    1,187
    A lot of people also felt that McKyla Marooney's silver medal in the vault event at the 2012 Summer Olympics was not justified and she should have even finished off the podium because she fell on the landing of her second vault but the judges held her up because she was American. How would the Gymnastics Federation be supposed to react to that, tweak the scoring system just to humor casual viewers of artistic gymnastics? Well, I'm not sure that a professional body like a federation would be willing to concede to the general public on technical matters for the mere reason the audiences seem to believe they know gymnastics and what the rules should be like better than the technicians of the sport.

    With figure skating, of course I could be all wrong but I have the feeling it's not the ISJ per se most people are unhappy with but rather how this system has been (incorrectly) applied to Patrick Chan over the years and if my assumption is correct, a much simpler way to fix the matter than change the rules would be for the ISU to invite Todd Eldredge, Johnny Weir, Evgeni Plushenko, Oleg Vassiliev and Jackie Wong to serve as official judges, as well as a few other people who have a problem with Patrick's scores and who've been involved in figure skating in various capacities for many years. I suppose no one would ever question their knowledge of figure skating or their objectivity.:)
    alilou and (deleted member) like this.
  17. elif

    elif Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2010
    Messages:
    365
    Actually they changed scoring system for vault. Also Amanar vaults base value lowered 6.5 to 6.3 too.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Q2jLCn9Fko
  18. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2009
    Messages:
    4,508
    Have to burst your bubble lowtherlore: Don't put the men's final results in London, Ontario on God -- cuz He sure as heaven and hell had NUTHIN' to do with it. :2faced:


    Yeah, yep, I'm certain that a lot of people wish Chan had skated more cleanly on plenty of occasions as a matter of fact, most of all Patrick Chan himself. I keep pointing out to all the Chan/ ISU judges apologists that if the result is just so fine and cool, then why was Chan apologizing to fans and to the London audience??? Was it for the fact that they bent over backward holding in their boos because he’s favored son?


    Ya know what, I'm willing to accept the fact that Ten had to skate squeaky clean to get the gold since he'd never been that near the podium (forget about top spot) in a big time senior event before. Even the BBC commentator noted just before D10 skated that he needed to be "absolutely clean" to win. However, get real! Denis Ten may not have Chan's above average mastery of the blade (who does?) but Denis delivered in both programs and actually won the long program. Also, Denis performed two gorgeous triple axels, while Patrick Chan DID NOT! So, are you saying that landing two beautiful quads (one in combo) trumps two gorgeous triple axels (one in combo) along with a beautiful quad? And that staying on one's feet while interpreting a unique two-part program theme is not better than a skater falling twice, stumbling out of another jump and doubling a planned triple??? Denis Ten's only mistakes were doubling two planned triples, however, the first instance: doubling of one of two planned triples in the three jump combination didn't much matter cuz most often skaters do a 3-2-2 in a three-jump combo. So, the one mistake that actually made the difference is the two-jump combo where Ten doubled the 3-flip.

    And lowtherlore, I don't know what your definition of quality is -- maybe it's "skating while Patrick Chan," which means in that case, you don't think anyone else possesses quality. There is no denying that Chan holds the patent on ubiquitous quality SS (but that doesn't actually make him look better than most skaters while impersonating a Zamboni). ;) What you apparently fail to recognize is that Denis skated more cleanly and more cohesively which is quality in the eyes of the majority of viewers, and in the eyes of the majority of skating cognoscenti (which may not include ISU, btw). However, even some judges on the judging panel would probably disagree with you that Denis is "no match" to Chan in quality. The quality of Chan's SS, are insufficient to overcome his consistent errors in important competitions -- and that's a majority fan opinion, believe it or NOT.

    If we're doing a breakdown, like is often done in tennis, Chan wins on SS, speed and ice coverage; and D10 and Chan are even on transitions, while D10 wins on smooth natural flow, innate artistry, interpretation, choreography, technical achievement, performance execution, program concept, and enthusiastic audience reaction. After the standing ovation for D10's performance, I seriously doubt that Canadian fans would have been pissed off had Denis edged Chan for the overall win.

    What's amazin' in my view is the way exaggeration on both sides of the coin continues on and on. Those driving the nail through everyone's head re the point of Chan's consistent major wins with too many errors are obviously exceedingly annoyed. Chan fans kept a bit quiet at first in the face of Chan's clear embarrassment but now they are apparently hoping what happened in London and Nice will not repeat in Sochi. And so to drown out those with long memories, Chan fans as usual are overly relying on faulty IJS scoring system and Chan's humongous SS, seeming to feel that by constantly saying Chan is so much better than everyone else really really, that maybe it will be accepted as true. IMO, the only way that's going to be true is if Chan quits making errors on his way to big judge-assisted wins over skaters who have superb qualities and who overall skate better.
  19. algonquin

    algonquin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2003
    Messages:
    2,933
    I was there that evening and can't speak for every Canadian fan, but personally I wish that Denis had won the gold. It certainly would have saved this going on ad nauseam.
    alilou and (deleted member) like this.
  20. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2005
    Messages:
    17,494
    "Enthusiastic audience reaction" is not an IJS judging criterion.
  21. Sparks

    Sparks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2002
    Messages:
    7,169
    Yes. If it were, Misha Ge would've received a medal!
  22. numbers123

    numbers123 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2005
    Messages:
    30,765
    I stated it before, there are some fans who want a surprise factor in a win. Within that surprise factor is enthusiastic audience reaction.

    The first Worlds competition that I attended I was struck by the joy that most of the skaters had on their faces to just be there. Those skaters had to know that they were never in contention for the big prize/medals. They had (have) to know that they were not going to get the scores that they get at their Nationals/Federations championships. That nationals inflation factor - but they were overjoyed to be there. I made a comment to the person sitting next to me when scores of 3.9 or whatever showed up - how disheartening that had to be when they were accustom to the 5.2 or higher score (it was during the 6.0 scoring era). But whether or not they made it out of qualifying rounds they had a look of PURE JOY, just knowing that they were there.

    In a perfect world, the skater who is awarded a medal would be one who had this joy, the audience support, the technical content, the judge's verification of the skating skills. About the closest I saw with that was Joanne's performance - and that was bittersweet because of her mother's death.

    Does anyone know what Denis or Patrick really feel about their performances? Do we know what they personally thought about their placements - I mean really thought? Unless someone is totally self-absorbed, they probably know what they did better and worse than their competitors. Do we know what type of joy they hold in their soul about the performances? You can be the best in your field and hate what you do, conversely you can be the worst performer on the ice and love what you do.

    I have no idea what Denis or Patrick feel, but I can tell you what certain posters will say just by seeing their names. From previous postings. From the poster's names. It would be nice, but I don't ever expect it to happen, that the same posters would concede that one or the other had a valid point.

    But from my own personal experience - when you do, the other poster manically believes that they have finally made you see the light and you are now going to enthusiastically attack all those other deranged people who attack your skater.
  23. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2009
    Messages:
    4,508

    :lol: Right you guys are! In any case, in keeping with my tennis-style breakdown, which frankly has nuttin' to do with IJS judges criteria, I think we can just put "enthusiastic audience response" under the Intangibles category. :rofl:

    And btw, Misha Ge would have been equal mainly in that Intangibles category to D10. :p But sure Misha is a performer and a charming young man, and he surely performed better than Patrick despite the fact lowtherlore would surely testify that Misha's Chan-like qualities are no match to the world champion's. :duh:
  24. bek

    bek Guest

    Actually the sport of gymnastics already changed the way vaulting is scored. Someone mentioned the Amanar being downgraded, but its not just that. They changed the way two vaults are scored together in event finals. Under the new system, Maroney wouldn't have even made the podium. The Americans complained when Cheng Fei medaled over Alicia under similar circumstances in Beijing.

    In general though the sport of gymnastics agreed that they didn't care for the concept of someone winning with a major flaw. So when the results had that happen, they changed the rules so that execution in vault finals would matter more.....

    The audience isn't the judges absolutely, but it doesn't mean the audience should be ignored either. People winning with multiple falls isn't good for the sport.
  25. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,349
    Maroney won silver (not gold) with only one fall, and over one probably the worst vaulting field in history (granted the mens field since 2009 in figure skating is also the worst in history), and her Amanar vault which she did successfully is the best womens vault in history. I was fine with the result. As for Sacramone vs Fei, Sacramone was .9 behind in start value, more than the .8 a fall was then, before the final even started. Sacramone was a dummy to not upgrade her gymnastics on vault and floor over the years leading to Beijing and it saw her passed by a bunch of people, including many of her own U.S teammates on floor. Had she upgraded even a bit before Beijing she could have easily won the vault gold given the mistakes by all the favorites that day, but instead she gets 4th place behind someone who fell who had mastered two 6.5 vaults while Sacramone was still doing vaults from the 90s.
  26. walei

    walei Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2004
    Messages:
    1,330
    The time of him stumbling out of a jump and the time he spent on his ass was what, less than 5 seconds total in a 4:30 program. That's less than 2% of the total time he was skating and interpreting to the music. Yes sometimes when a skater messes up they get caught off guard and couldn't perform the rest of the program well enough. I never got that from Chan's skate with the falls.
  27. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2009
    Messages:
    4,508
    ^^ That's the kind of dumbfounding defense that is frankly ... dumb-floundering.


    Chan is a nice young man and a great skater professordeb. It's wonderful that you love him and defend him. But why not present a more logical argument against JJ? It was quite surprising that Chan was not the usual winner with mistakes early in the season. Perhaps that can be attributed to precocious Hanyu skating out of his mind, the rising brilliance of Javi Fernandez, and as well perhaps the residue of Nice boos still ringing in the judges’ ears. Apparently, the judges were just allowing Patrick an opportunity to regroup in early season. ;) In any case, even while "losing" during the early season, Chan always made the podium. The judges' Chan favoritism over the past several years has been so bad that IMHO, it has hampered Patrick's growth as a skater and complicated his life as a young person trying to mature in the spotlight. It's made people unfairly dislike Patrick. Perhaps that's the biggest cruelty that ISU judges and IJS judging system have inflicted!!! But seriously, the OTT knee-jerk Chan fandom defensiveness as well as the constant insults toward Kathy Johnson DO NOT HELP the situation Patrick finds himself in.

    You might as well not bring up Vancouver since Chan was nicely gifted with mistakes in his placement there. The cool thing about Patrick Chan which is nearly forgotten in all the hoopla over Chanflation is the fact that post-Vancouver, he took a long hard look at himself and his dreams, wised up to Plushy's portentous commandment, went home and aced quads. Then after hearing complaints about his lack of complete artistry, Patrick made the effort this season to focus on improving in that aspect. I think Patrick should be commended for this, and again I think it's a shame he's had to deal with the misfortune of being the judges' overwhelming favorite in the CoP-era, not to mention bearing the weight of overweening Chan fans, and Great Canadian Hope overhype.

    I do believe Patrick's SS seem to overcome the fact that he is not a great artist on the level of Toller Cranston, John Curry, Robin Cousins, Jeremy Abbott, Paul Wylie, and Matt Savoie. But in addition to not yet reaching that level of great artistry, Patrick does not possess the jumping consistency and fierce, palpable macho presence and determination of Yagudin and Plushenko. Neither does Patrick have the natural creativity and smooth lyricism of Christopher Bowman, Johnny Weir, Stephane Lambiel, AND Denis Ten! Not even does Patrick yet rise to the level of artistic excellence and showmanship possessed by his countrymen: Kurt Browning, Brian Orser, Emanuel Sandhu, Shawn Sawyer, and Jeffrey Buttle. IMO neither does Patrick possess the authenticity and technical brilliance of Elvis Stojko, Brian Boitano, Todd Eldredge, and Scott Hamilton. What Patrick does have in spades is a good heart, loads of charisma off-ice, fairly consistent quads as a weapon, and those amazing wunderbar SS that are his bread and butter. To his credit, Patrick has worked on his artistry, but right now it's still a bit studied in my view, altho' his SS do compensate very effectively as usual in combination with his progress in the artistic realm, when he manages to stay on his feet.

    Frankly, I'd like to see unexpected excitement happen in Sochi with some uncontroversial but clear and surprising wins, however unlikely that is to happen. No one really likes the impression given by the judges that Patrick can mail in his wins, merely by showing up and looking good in practice and maybe skating cleanly in one of two programs. The fact that Patrick has in recent years been pushed to the point of feeling and saying that he's not motivated is a clear indictment of his controversial wins. Plenty of times, Patrick did deserve to win with mistakes on the basis of some competitions as a whole. But on too many occasions, his winning margins were ridiculous, and too often he was favored over Dai when a case could be made for Dai winning.

    This season it did seem as if the judges were bringing Patrick's scores back down to earth and within reason, to give at least the semblance of there being competition for gold in the men's division. However, it's hard to excuse what happened in Nice. And, I believe that what happened in Nice is absolutely a factor in how people view the London results. Also, it is undeniable that Denis Ten was the best overall skater in London with two superbly delivered performances.

    Taking into account the general craziness of figure skating judging, I think the fact that Denis faltered slightly in doubling the 3-flip and clearly was becoming winded (which he overcame) can be seen as justification enough for the judges not to reward him the gold -- in the sense that underdogs must be perfect to win. However, the fact that Patrick fell twice on important jumps and faltered twice more with technical mistakes nullifies that notion -- it's simply too many errors to justify Chan winning even by that small margin, especially since the short program marks for both skaters should have been much closer than an eight-point spread. The efforts to justify Chan’s win are weak and useless, and simply further add to the pall cast by Nice.
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2013
  28. vodkashot

    vodkashot New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2009
    Messages:
    197
    This is an absurd argument and what I believe is a key weakness in CoP's slicing and dicing logic to PCS. A skater could fall on every single one of the 8 jumping passes and could still technically spend only about 10 seconds of a 4:30 LP with his ass on the ice. But what that "logic" fails to acknowledge is the fact that the overall effect of a program has been completely and utterly destroyed if a skater falls or majorly stumbles on every single jumping pass (or even multiple jumping passes), even if only about 3.7% of the total program time has been spent falling.
    bardtoob and (deleted member) like this.
  29. vodkashot

    vodkashot New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2009
    Messages:
    197
    But "The skater radiates energy resulting in an invisible connection with the audience" is a IJS judging criterion under PE, whatever that means...
  30. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2009
    Messages:
    4,508
    ^^ Ha ha, interesting vodkashot! BTW, I believe PE stands for "performance execution." There's a CoP for Dummies trivia nugget worthy of a Jeopardy category. :rofl:
  31. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2002
    Messages:
    12,775
  32. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2012
    Messages:
    2,685
    Talking about yourself? :p

    Oh why, that’s so sweet of you aftershocks to think nicely of Chan. As for JJ, he is obsessed with beating Chan down so I don’t think we can expect logical arguments from an obsessed fan or hater.

    Yep, my bet was on Hanyu to win gold had he delivered.

    There will be more 'inflation' to come not only from Chan but from other skaters. Hanyu-flation had happened. Next in line may be 'Brown-flation' if he gets his quads, 'Han-flation' if he raised his skating skills and choreography, 'Chen-flation' if he continues his upward trajectory ...... Oh dear, we shall be running all these 'flaton polls' every season!;)
  33. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2009
    Messages:
    4,508
    :yawn: Like I said, Chan fans, your arguments are weak, useless and dumb-floundering. Yeah, but naturally that won't stop you from continuing to flounder around and unfortunately like poor Chan trying to throw dirt onto other skaters in an ineffectual and ill-advised effort to downplay and diminish the seriously dismaying pall of Chanflation.

    Of course Patrick Chan is too good a skater to be ironically confronted with the misfortune of having to battle back from winning ugly two Worlds in a row! :duh:
  34. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Messages:
    1,592
    How much sway should an audience have, then? Or more accurately, how often should an audience (of varying knowledge) instantly understand the results. I think if we can agree on this, then you can create a system to allow for it. I'd be impressed if you got agreement, though.

    I've heard this argument before, but I don't agree with it at all.

    Firstly, I'd argue that Chan's falls did affect the rest of the program. The fall on the triple lutz affected the choreography going into the step sequence (compare his CoR performance with his Worlds performance) and made the beginning a little sloppy. After the second fall, he seemed completely out of the program. I actually thought he was unwell throughout the performance because he didn't have much conviction. I can think of Chan performances with a fall that didn't really take me out of the skate (CoR 2011 SP for example), but Worlds 2013 certainly wouldn't be one of them.

    Secondly, while I like that COP is a "parts and whole" system, using the time spent from falling as a justification for not dropping scores seems ill-advised at best. I mean, it's not as if we expect the 270 (or 240) seconds to each contribute equally to the program. Why pretend that a major error that takes place in a minor time frame only affects things in a minor way?
  35. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2001
    Messages:
    3,804
    aftershocks,
    I was responding to JJ and their post insisting that Chan always WINS. Winning = gold medal, not just being on the podium. In the many places that JJ posts about Chan, it is quite obvious that they have a hate-on for him. Regardless of how many times people have tried to explain why Patrick gets the scores he does -- including deductions -- JJ insists that Chan shouldn't win, doesn't deserve to win, doesn't deserve his marks. I have tried to understand their POV but when every post them make about Chan is nothing but negative and saying the same thing, it gets wearing. As a result, there are times I feel like I just have to say something.

    As for Patrick and all those skaters you listed as belonging to a certain "category" of skater, I'm not sure I would have included some of those that you did in those categories. What I find interesting is that you say Patrick doesn't belong in any of those categories yet I don't see you listing any of those skaters in multiple categories. It seems like you think Patrick should be ALL of those things, which is a pretty big order. If I've misunderstood your intent, my apologies. I have yet to see anyone have all the goods to make it into each of those categories. However, I would say that Chan is part of a group that is attempting to do well in multiple areas. Will he be remembered as a master in one of those categories? I think somehow that he won't because of what COP expects of its skaters. Then again, he (and others) could surprise me. I don't think we'll know what he's become know for in your categories, but he is well known for his skating skills, the way he can get up to speed in such few stokes. I believe that he, like Ms. Kostner, know how to use their blades to generate speed and watching them just skating on the ice is a thing of beauty. For me, they are both masters of the blade.
  36. walei

    walei Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2004
    Messages:
    1,330
    It depends on which PCS mark you are referring to. I was pointing out that for Interpretation, I don't think falls or stumbles should substantially decrease a skater's IN mark unless the skater got the wind knocked out of him and starting to rely on muscle memory or started to wing-in (like Amodio's SP). A fall or glitches are a small part of the program and if anything should be reflected on P/E or SS.

    As for aftershock... Thanks for your constantly lengthy defense against Chan Defenders. tl:dr.
  37. bek

    bek Guest

    No. I'm saying that if the system is causing results that are having the audience repeatedly up in flames than maybe things should be looked at. I think that B/S win with correct commentators could have been explained because it was defensible.

    But I think for the audience seeing skaters win with all of those falls, and I'm sorry I question Chan's second place in the free at Worlds. I think that suggests perhaps the system needs to be looked at.

    I think the audience understands its a judged sport and there are a lot of things they won't understand. However the program is riddled with lots of errors that even the audience notices. That shouldn't be ignored.

    And well I think if we look at Frank's interview we will see its not just the casual fans who don't understand skating who have issues with high P/E marks for skaters who have programs littered with errors.
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 7, 2013
  38. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Messages:
    1,592
    bek, you didn't actually answer the question.

    1. How much should audience reaction matter?

    2. How easily understood should the results be to an audience containing people of various levels of understanding?

    I agree - when the overwhelming tone from a World Champion is not about three winners that were easily accepted but about the one that people really responded negatively to, something is definitely wrong. But I'm not convinced that the mob with pitchforks is really the best way to go about figuring out why.

    Personally, I've read the rules. I like most of them. And no, I don't really understand Chan's victory. I had Chan 3rd or 4th in the LP and bronze overall (I thought Fernandez was hosed more than Ten, frankly).
  39. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2006
    Messages:
    4,245
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2013
    bardtoob and (deleted member) like this.
  40. lowtherlore

    lowtherlore New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2006
    Messages:
    390
    IMO, while the fans generally appreciate such qualities as power, speed, edges in skating and executing the jumps, many of the same fans tend to overlook the risks inherent in skating with such qualities. Imagine parallel parking a car at 5 mph vs 10 mph. I can understand the complaint about the current men’s champion not having skated a cleaner FS. But the way I see it, Chan built up a margin in SP, and he barely defended the lead by virtue of the quality of his skating. I truly believe Chan should have 1-2 fall cushion in SP+FS combined, for his quality.

    I haven't cast a vote in this poll. If you allow me to rephrase the original polled question: Chan’s quality brought the scoring level in men’s singles to another level; has it riffled out to inflation of scores for other skaters? Yes!!