Does 'Chanflation' exist?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Maofan7, Apr 4, 2013.

?

Does 'Chanflation' exist?

Poll closed May 5, 2013.
  1. Yes

    127 vote(s)
    60.2%
  2. No

    79 vote(s)
    37.4%
  3. Don't know

    5 vote(s)
    2.4%
  1. Maofan7

    Maofan7 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2011
    Messages:
    5,486
    In this article, Jackie Wong argues:-

    Is Jackie right or wrong?
    PeterG and (deleted member) like this.
  2. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2001
    Messages:
    3,802
    She is right. Too bad so many others haven't bothered to
    1) understand the rules of COP
    2) hide their hate of Chan
    3) understand that it's the judges, not Chan, who give out the marks.
  3. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2006
    Messages:
    4,232
    I wouldn't say Chan's victories have been "more than fair" based on IJS rules, but if one takes the time to learn the system then yes, they are understandable.

    Perhaps there are some Chan-haterz who are simply using the Worlds decision to bash him even more. I'm upset by the Worlds decision, but I'm no Chan hater: I think he's fan-freakin-tastic. I have nothing against Chan, he's just skating. I do believe he gets a bit of world-champion bonus, but he's not the first and probably won't be the last to receive such treatment.

    But I am with those who are not just fine and dandy with the current state of IJS and the way it's scored.
  4. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,319
    Is this an April fools joke question.
    bardtoob and (deleted member) like this.
  5. Skater91

    Skater91 New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2012
    Messages:
    118
    I Agree! Reading some of the comments made by people on here, it seems like a lot of people are stuck in the past and have not bothered to keep up to date with the rules.
    Trying to hang on to the so called "glory days" of the 6.0
  6. sk8ingcoach

    sk8ingcoach Active Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2012
    Messages:
    457
    I don't like Patrick either but he deserves every component he receives.
  7. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2007
    Messages:
    321
    Then you'd know how obsolete these people's minds are.:p I believe they do study the new rules - well, some of them do. However, their mind cannot jump out of the old schools. How can you make someone happy with the new things if their mind stuck in the past?

    Patrick makes mistakes often. And Patrick wins most of the time. That's where "Chanflation" came from. It was from the people whose favorites lost. Has he really been having the so called "Chanflation"? About 95% of the time, I could say NO! If people insist that there was "Chanflation" going on in most major competitions Chan attended, they should at least admit that there were "Tenflation", "Takahashiflation", "Hanyuflation", "Plushyflation", "Joubertflation", and so on... But no, they chose not to acknowledge those at least equally, sometimes more, questionable marks. Nor would they admit that there were much more truly unexplainable inflations in the old 6.0 system.
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2013
  8. munow

    munow New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2013
    Messages:
    99
  9. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2007
    Messages:
    2,101
    Well, it exists but it doesn't exist on purpose to prop up Patrick Chan.
    algonquin and (deleted member) like this.
  10. The Accordion

    The Accordion Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2005
    Messages:
    3,416
    This!

    With IJS Skaters whose basics are of a tremendously high quality will win with mistakes over those whose basics are of a lower quality.

    In a ridiculously obvious example - put the skater with the worst basics who completes all the elements against the skater with the best basics and mistakes and you can see why they would win. It becomes more complicated when their basics are closer in level.

    However, it is not just something about the system that benefits Chan and as time goes on - if there are not changes to the judging - we will see more examples of skaters that are just that good. For instance - we have seen all year that V and T with mistakes will beat other really good teams with no mistakes. There have been similar complaints about Carolina Kostner.

    Having just seen them all skate at Worlds - I fully appreciate Kostner's and V and T's and Chan's superior skating. But my main point is - the system rewards fantastic basics -and fantastic basics allow for higher levels and better GOE.

    This is not Chanflation - it is the system that rewards the amazing skills of Chan - and V and T and Kostner .
  11. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2003
    Messages:
    10,492
    Agreed. So then the question is: Is this really a problem?

    Point values and judges' use of program components can be adjusted so that blatant mistakes will be more costly and so that superficially clean programs will be more highly rewarded just for cleanness in addition to whatever other positive qualities they gain points for.

    If more changes are made in those directions, it will become less common for better skaters to win even with several mistakes.

    But even so, there would still be some occasions when all the best skaters make mistakes and the next-best skater with a clean program is not quite in the top ranks on PCS or attempted base value or quality of successful elements. And so the cleanest program would not win. And observers who believe mistakes should spell defeat will still be dissatisfied.

    At the big high-profile events like Worlds, Olympics, GP Final, there will probably be enough good skaters that writing in massive penalties for these mistakes and significant bonuses for superficial cleanness would almost always result in a cleaner skate winning. But at a smaller competition like a regular Grand Prix event, senior B event, or national championship, where there may be only one world-medal-level skater entered, it would still be possible that that skater could be enough ahead of the rest of the field on everything thing else to overcome the stiff penalties.

    The only ways to guarantee that performances with certain types or numbers of mistakes will never win would be to disqualify the skater as soon as those mistakes have been verified.

    I would be in favor of some effort to minimize the occurrences of good clean programs losing to great-but-visibly-flawed programs, through the means mentioned in my second paragraph. But ultimately I think the sport will continue to value underlying quality over simple lack of visible errors, so it's also important to help viewers appreciate those qualities, the better to understand the results.
    Maofan7 and (deleted member) like this.
  12. NYScorp6

    NYScorp6 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2009
    Messages:
    53
    YES, without a doubt.
    If a similar result occurs at the 2014 Olympic games I predict a huge uproar putting the 2002 Pairs event/result to shame. Figure skating will have zero credibility as a sport.
  13. Zokko!

    Zokko! Comansnala?

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2003
    Messages:
    2,314
    Is the world a sphere? :p
    hanca and (deleted member) like this.
  14. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2005
    Messages:
    17,466
    Jackie Wong is a terrible writer. Maofan, I'm glad you were able to figure out what the article was about, because I didn't have the patience to plow through it to the end.
  15. Rob

    Rob Beach Bum

    Joined:
    May 24, 2002
    Messages:
    13,169
    Chanflation originally referred to the fact that the judges at 2010 Canadian Nationals really outdid themselves with nationally inflated scores. National champion inflation occurs in many countries.
    Maofan7 and (deleted member) like this.
  16. sequins

    sequins New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    826
    Is the moon made of cheese?
  17. kwanlysacek

    kwanlysacek Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2012
    Messages:
    47
    Chan is underscored in both GOE and PCS. Gettting the scores he deserves he would have an even bigger mistake on the field than he has now. He was robbed of winning the Grand Prix final this year too.
  18. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2008
    Messages:
    1,187
    If the judges keep following the rules and no case of corruption is reported like in 2002, why would there be any scandal? Well, I hope there won't be any because a new scandal in the men's event after Lysacek's win in 2010 wouldn't be good for the sport.:(

    Enough that the ISU used the 2002 scandal as an excuse to change the scoring system so that the North-American skaters could win a few titles and medals.
  19. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2003
    Messages:
    9,933
    Well, if we're going to paint it like that, then one can turn that around and say that you can't blame them for that since the older scoring system was obviously used to prop non-North American skaters for decades without having to defend their scores. The North American federations ended up changing the institution in their favor. That is of course, if you want to go with that argument.
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2013
    bardtoob and (deleted member) like this.
  20. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2003
    Messages:
    10,492
    Not scandal on the same level as in 2002.

    But if the results don't match what fans and commentators who have their own opinions of what the rules should be or how the existing rules should be applied, there will be outrage. And if the commentators get outraged, the casual viewers and the mainstream press in that country will as well.
    hanca and (deleted member) like this.
  21. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2003
    Messages:
    9,933
    It doesn't have to be as extreme as changing the scoring system. We already have precedent of the ISU changing things around to appease the fans and viewers of the sport such as adding the short program, getting rid of compulsories (although smaller federations were also supporting this), etc.
  22. arakwafan2006

    arakwafan2006 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2009
    Messages:
    693
    So should the question be "should Denis Ten have won Worlds?"

    I have not seen Denis live but i have Seen Patrick live and at his best as i watched him practice the week before worlds. There is just NOT an ice surface on earth big enough for him. He's amazing amazing. STILL, i do think that Denis Ten gave an incredible performance and was stellar. Under the 6.0 system, he would have won. .The 6.0 system however was more the spirit of the law. The Code of Points is the letter of the law which Patrick was judged by and rightfully won under
  23. The Accordion

    The Accordion Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2005
    Messages:
    3,416
    I think it is funny though - that some people act as though there have only been results people disagreed with in IJS and that the marking under 6.0 solves everything. Yes - I do agree that with the placements being the way they were after the short - that under 6.0 Denis Ten would have won - if only because the skater in the top 3 who won the free program automatically won the competition. And in this case - it would have made more people more satisfied.

    However, would Ten - without a reputation for such programs have had a shot after the short in 6.0? Would he have been in the top 3?
    In 6.0 skaters out of the top 3 were "not in control of their own destiny" and in a time when it is arguable reputation made it more difficult for someone of Ten's world standing would he have been given the ordinals to be top 3?

    And anyone who tells themselves that figure skating results always made sense to the masses - or even the "experts" under 6.0 has a selective memory!
  24. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2003
    Messages:
    9,933
    I think people have a hard time remembering a time where a skater with four major mistakes was still able to win the title over another skater who skated as well as he could have with high technical content (even if it's not the highest technical content) under 6.0. It has happened though. Under 6.0 with the SP and LP and factored placements, is there an argument that Chan deserved to be lower than second in the LP in order for Ten (who may not have been in the top three after the SP) to win?

    Although this poll certainly isn't the most reliable measure we have, I do think it's telling. I think the fact that the term has gotten attention in the limited media that covers figure skating coupled with many skating fans have been using that term for the past few seasons indicate that rightly or wrongly, many perceive that Chan can rely on a huge PCS boost to carry him to victories when his LP skates have been less than stellar.
  25. clarie

    clarie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2003
    Messages:
    2,472
    No, but tiny minds think it does :rolleyes:
    Maofan7 and (deleted member) like this.
  26. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,319
    No that shouldnt be the question, as Chan has had many more controversial wins and medals than just the recent Worlds, and has had many far worse ones than this years Worlds to boot. People, including experts, journalists, and fellow skaters alike are just so fed up at this point they are now becoming alot more vocal.
  27. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2006
    Messages:
    4,232
    I think so. It happened to Paul Wylie at Olympics, who had a worse international track record than Ten.
  28. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2007
    Messages:
    2,101
    Viktor Petrenko's 1992 Worlds winning LP was quite flawed (just watched it the other day), but I don't remember how his competitors skated, even Browning. I was watching Petrenko since he's the last man I could think of who could win competitions a la Chan with flawed performances (mainly jump mistakes).
  29. The Accordion

    The Accordion Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2005
    Messages:
    3,416
    There have been quite a few skaters who could win with flawed programs. First 2 that come to mind are Kurt Browning and Stephane Lambiel - but they are just the first 2 - I know there were many more. Also - a turnout and or doubling a jump weren't necessarily considered mistakes under 6.0. So if you were to look back at winners under 6.0 without "mistakes" as people are now calling them -there would probably be a ton more if you counted those 2 things as mistakes.
  30. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2008
    Messages:
    1,187
    My local commentators of figure skating usually agree with the official judges - about Chan too - and they way prefer the COP to the 6.0 system. Might be the explanation to why scores and results don't get me outraged so easily.:cool:
  31. bek

    bek Guest

    Wylie didn't put out the kind of technical performance Ten did. In general I want to say I don't necessarily believe one fall one mistake and your out I don't disagree with B/S winning Olympic Gold over S/P.

    However I do have a pretty big issue with people making multiple major errors and winning due to their huge PCS. My problem is PCS are very subjective in a lot of ways and they concept that errors shouldn't be taken into account at all.

    I'm wondering if what we need is a clean program bonus, but I wouldn't mind if the clean program bonus got tied to the base value of the skate....

    I will say that watching Laura Lepisto double most of her jumps while the program had no falls, I failed to consider it "clean" at least at this level of competition. And I do think the level of the competition counts.
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 5, 2013
    hanca and (deleted member) like this.
  32. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2007
    Messages:
    321
    Yes, although there is a degree as how far a system should go, just like rewarding on quad jumps. The system has to endeavor to find balance between rewarding risk-taking and rewarding clean programs.

    The measurement of rewarding a clean program alone can significantly undermine the athletic aspect of this sport. Not just jumps, but also spins and footworks, which, I believe as a sport, need to be encouraged in the boundary pushing. Using cleanness alone measures a competition result is too shallow an approach. There are a lot going on beneath the mistakes which need to be analysed before making a decision for the placement.

    Exactly. No one, no system on earth could eliminate the outcry from the people who are dissatisfied with the results of a competition that is involved with subjectivity. So it is perfectly normal.:p

    True, but that is impossible given the nature of this sport. I think most of the people, fans and skaters themselves, don't want to see this.
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2013
  33. vodkashot

    vodkashot New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2009
    Messages:
    197
    It exists, insofar as reputation scoring exists.

    But Chan is hardly the first or the only skater to benefit from reputation scoring.
  34. Jenny81

    Jenny81 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2011
    Messages:
    256
    I love Chan but....... :slinkaway
    hanca and (deleted member) like this.
  35. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,319
    I dont know why people focus only on PCS, as Chan is grossly overscored on both PCS and GOE, and the inflated GOE matter a great deal in giving him his 6 fall cushion on the field as well.
  36. PeterG

    PeterG Argle-Bargle-ist

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2002
    Messages:
    8,608
    Of course Chanflation exists. As does:

    Kwan-itis
    Yagudin-osis
    Virtue and Moir-ostomy
    Berezhnaya and Sikharulidze-algia, and of course
    Grishuk and Platov-orrhea
    orientalplane, alilou, LilJen and 5 others like this.
  37. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2005
    Messages:
    17,466
    And there are also lots of people saying that his win was fair under the way the judging system works. But I guess you can't hear them because you are screaming so loudly about how unfair it all is :drama:
  38. DFJ

    DFJ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2002
    Messages:
    4,836
    God, this is tiresome.
    alilou and (deleted member) like this.
  39. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2003
    Messages:
    9,933
    Like it or not people feel that way whether or not his scores are justified. The only way for this to be fixed is to tweak the scoring system yet again or for Chan to actually perform up to his potential at Worlds/Olympics and shut all of his critics up. It happened in the SP at Worlds, so maybe he'll be able to do it for both the SP and LP next season.
  40. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2005
    Messages:
    7,866
    I don't think Chan benefits from reputation scoring per se because his skating is actually lovely. Even his attempted athletic content is good. The problem is that his athletic execution lacks, but the judging system does not properly account for poor execution.
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2013