Did Drobiazko and Vanagas ever beat Bourne and Kraatz?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by blue_idealist, May 16, 2013.

  1. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    This was just something I was wondering about the other day... I thought D&V might have beat B&K once, but I couldn't remember exactly where, or if they even did. Does anyone know? I know they usually finished behind them...
     
  2. walei

    walei Well-Known Member

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    I'm pretty sure D/V beat B/K in GPF 2000 where B/K finished dead last and didn't make it into the Super Finals.
     
  3. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    1993, Drobiazko/Vanagas were 13th at Worlds and Bourne/Kraatz were 14th in their debut. ;)
     
  4. lmarie086

    lmarie086 Well-Known Member

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    Drobiazko/Vanagas were 3rd at Worlds in 2000, and Bourne/Kraatz were 4th or 5th I believe.
     
  5. Andora

    Andora Well-Known Member

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    I believe B&K didn't compete in 2000. Shae was injured. Plus they had a dreadful FD. :p
     
  6. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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  7. lmarie086

    lmarie086 Well-Known Member

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    Ah, forgive me. I wasn't sure if I had just missed them (since I also hated that FD ;) ) or not.
     
  8. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    They beat them at both Skate America 2000 and Nations Cup 2000. They were 2nd and Bourne & Kraatz 3rd in both cases (I believe Fusar Poli & Margalio were the winners of both events). They generally were above B&K in the 99-2000 and 2000-2001 seasons until Worlds in Canada to end the 2001 season where B&K moved back in front and remained so for good.
     
  9. Whitneyskates

    Whitneyskates Well-Known Member

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    I loved D/V. Their 5th place finish in 2002 was, imo, the true figure skating controversy of those games, although not a peep was uttered. I thought it was kind of funny that B/K were ready to call foul anytime they were beaten by what they perceived to be protocol judging, but had no problem with it when it benefited them. I can't even imagine the hell they would have raised if they had finished 5th behind two teams who fell.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2013
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  10. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    To be fair, the 2002 placements didn't really benefit B&K, as they finished 4th and off the podium again. I'm sure 4th was no better than 5th in their eyes.
     
  11. numbers123

    numbers123 Well-Known Member

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    I thought that there was a bit of an uproar? I remember being in Vancouver and booing happening because of their placement? Maybe I am thinking about another time?
     
  12. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    Just IMHO, B-K deserve to won 1 bronze medal at OG. In my opinion with Riverdance in 1998.
    In 2002 F-P-M have fall on step sequence, when B-K at the end pose. But in any case B-K didnt get medal.
    Plus Margarita isnt such great skater, like Povilas. She had a lot off jumos, didnt have smooth skating.
    I think D-V wuzzrobbed in 2002 WCh. (IMHO).
    And i must to say, i love GPF results in 2001-2002 :D Both D-V and B-K had amazing results.
     
  13. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Bourne & Kraatz were placed in the bronze medal spot in the free dance portion in Nagano. It was their compulsories and most of all awful original dance which kept them off the podium, and rightfully so. This despite that they got a huge gift in the OD and received mostly 4th and 5th place votes (and even a couple 3rds amazingly) when really it was more like a 9th place dance.

    As for SLC, in SLC the final standings should have been:

    Anissina & Peizerat gold easily, 1st in all portions, although I hate their FD and enjoyed many others more
    Drobiazko & Vanagas silver- 3rd in CDs, 3rd in OD, 2nd in FD
    Lobacheva & Averbuhk bronze- 8th in CDs, 2nd in OD, 3rd in FD
    Bourne & Kraatz 4th- 6th in CDs, 4th in OD, 4th in FD
    Denkova & Stayviski 5th- 4th in CDs, 7th in OD, 5th in FD
    Fusar Poli & Margalio 6th- 2nd in CDs, 5th in OD, 7th in FD
    Navka & Kostomarov 7th- 5th in CDs, 6th in OD, 6th in FD
    Lang & Tschernaysaev- 7th in CDs, 8th in OD, 8th in FD

    Lobacheva & Averbuhk 2nd in the CD, Fusar Poli & Margalio 3rd in the FD, and Drobiazko & Vanagas only 5th in the FD were all ROTFL moments.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2013
  14. PeterG

    PeterG Hanyuflated

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    What, you thought Bourne and Kraatz should have said, "oh, wait everybody...we should probably be a place or two lower for this one"! :lol:
     
  15. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    I actually think the places in Nagano were right. I think B&K should have got the bronze in SLC instead of Fusar-Poli and Margaglio since their fall was on a non-element and Margaglio had a huuuuge fall in the middle of the program. I actually barely remember D/V's performances from SLC so I can't really say where they should have ended up. I just remember B&K's Michael Jackson FD was my favourite/the best they've ever done.
     
  16. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    I love B&K but I do agree, that OD was pretty baaaad for their standards.
     
  17. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    That's why I said IMHO. I think with new system such a dance and performance, like BK showed in Riverdance brought them medal at OG.
    I love MJ at GPF. It was the best moment of the season for me. In CD in 2002 in my opinion BK was amazing in quickstep. And there OD was most original, when all others showed more standard programs. But the worst thing was -judges didn't give any chance for them to fight for any kind of medal from there first step on the ice.
    But BK open the door for.all.North American ice dance teams, who competed.after them.
     
  18. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I totally disagree with you. I don't get why you're using the "new" system when we really don't know how it would have been scored considering that none of the team's FDs fit in with the requirements of IJS.

    However, if you want to look at difficulty, you can look at the difficult of the hand-holds, pattern on the ice, speed, lifts, and variety of footwork and content. Bourne and Kraatz had a lot of footwork that fit the music and the Irish step-dance theme. Anissina and Peizerat's Romeo and Juliet had a variety of face-to-face hand-holds, different sorts of footwork and changes in direction, and a great variety of lifts.

    Looking at that OD is where I have a problem with any Bourne/Kraatz deserved the bronze debate. Bourne/Kraatz should have been buried even further than they were in the CD for that OD in 1998. While Anissina/Peizerat had arguably the most difficult and convincing jive OD that season, Bourne and Kraatz's Grease was seriously simple compared to what their contemporaries were doing and not really doing a great job expressing the jive theme. Their Beatles OD earlier was even worse though because The Beatles' "I Saw Her Standing There" I don't believe is a "jive." If you want to talk about difficulty, it was well-behind the rest of the top seven.

    I also disagree about their 2002 OD. I thought their Cell Block Tango was slow, labored, and absolutely boring because it was so unconvincing. Compared to what Anissina/Peizerat, Lobacheva/Averbukh and even Drobiazko/Vanagas and Navka/Kostomorov produced, Bourne and Kraatz's dance just didn't compare. I actually liked their Michael Jackson FD, but it wasn't as difficult as it looked. Also, someone said earlier that they fell on a non-element, but didn't they both go down on the final lift while only Margaglio fell during in the near beginning of the step-sequence before finishing it up? Both Bourne/Kraatz and Fusar-Poli/Margaglio unfairly scored higher than Drobiazko/Vanagas anyway.


    I think someone is just pointing out some perceived hypocrisy. My personal opinion on the matter is that I hated how NBC made it sound like all they wanted was fair judging when what they really wanted was judging where they would win titles like every other team competing. NBC made it seem like they had more honor than the other top teams and federations or something. What it seemed like to me was more frustration about the lack of politick success.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2013
  19. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    Oh yeah, B&K's OD in 2002 was great as well. I re-watch it all the time.
     
  20. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    I think I would've had Denkova/Staviski ahead of B/K, but I think judgejudy's ranking is solid. But I never liked Lobacheva/Averbukh.
     
  21. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    I remember Maxim Staviiskiy during some competitions, when they start talking about BK, prised very high there Riverdance.
    I never talked about BK must win OG, but bronze must be there.
    As for difficulty of BK programs. Riverdance had more steps, then any other FD in that season.
    Just it was different FD style, when all others used overdramatic piece of choreo. But steps difficulty was over the top.
    BK, when they start competed at senior level, was the fresh air. And its sad, that after they didn't get medals, they want to get, they try more traditional, old-fashioned things.
    They brought a lot off new elements in ice dance.
    As for Spanish OD. I know, all teams did great job, but I only want to say, that.BK try to do this OD in different way.
    As for swing OD. Maybe you are right. I was impressed with all top 3 ODs,but I think BK skating skills wasn't so bad to lay them on 7 or 8 place.
     
  22. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

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    You can do all the steps you want but if they're performed side by side or hand to hand (like they did in Riverdance or their atrocious OD that year), it simply does not count as difficult. Not to mention they made numerous errors in the golden waltz CD. I can't believe they managed to place 5th there as they should've been even lower with those errors. However, fourth place for their awful OD was even more outrageous.
     
  23. shady82

    shady82 Active Member

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    judgejudy27, just curious why you put N/K and L/T in 7th and 8th. Not that I'd complain - I love L/T's programs, I just thought the difficulty of their programs that year was watered down compared to their usual content. Everyone seems to think L/T should've been in the place they received (I thought 10th is more like it).

    I agree with your top assessments, though I'd do the following (personal opinion):
    5) C/S
    6) D/S
    7) FP/M
    8) G/G
    9) W/L
    10) L/T
    11) D/L
    12) N/K
     
  24. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Well we already have a big difference in opinion on a couple things as personally I thought Chait & Shaknovsky were always an awful team (they were actually much improved by 2004-2006 when they were still getting much poorer results being judged correctly) and should have been nowhere near the top 10 in the SLC field, and yet you have them higher than their actual finish of 6th. Keep in mind how the skating World reacted to their medal at the 02 Worlds when 2 higher teams from SLC were out (not that I base my own opinions on that, but my feelings of their skating at the time seem to be echoed by many).

    I had Navka & Kostomarov really high as their lines and edges and speed were already excellent I thought, and in that field they stood out somewhat just for that, even if their content was quite lacking. Their compulsories were also very good.

    L&T did lack content in their LP for sure, but they also had great qualities relative to much of the bottom half top 10 teams when it came to quality, line, unision, ease of movement, and very enjoyable programs, and very well executed footwork and elements (even with the open holds and easiness). Their compulsories were also outstanding and ridiculously undermarked. Lobacheva & Averbukh who finished 9 places above had absolutely horrendous compulsories in SLC and much worse than L&T.




    That is of course the fascinating thing about ice dancing. So many different opinions people have. Bourne & Kraatz are one of those, they would probably win a most overrated team on this forum, or only lose out to a team like Fusar Poli, yet they also come higher than teams like Krylova & Ovsiannikov and Usova & Zhulin in positive voting polls. For them it is either extreme fandom or extreme they were so cheesy, overrated, and whiny, and I am one of the few somewhere in between on them. Either way what constitues fair or correct judging and what should have been results are drastically different for alot of people, some people are infuriated a team finished as high as someone else is infuriated they werent much higher then, and vice versa, so how can we even define if the judging was really well done or not, LOL! The fascination of the 6.0 dance era.


    The things everyone seems to agree on regarding SLC though are:

    -Anissina & Peizerat were the clear and undisputed winners and it would have been an absolute scandal had anyone else (especialy Lobacheva & Averbuhk as they so nearly did) won gold over them.

    -Lobacheva & Averbuhk should have been nowhere near 2nd in the compulsories and thus had no hope of the gold medal right from the start.

    -Drobiazko & Vanagas were probably hard done by the judging in finishing 5th again.

    -Fusar Poli was way overmarked in the OD and even more the FD, and did not deserve a medal.

    -Denkova & Stayviski were slightly undermarked for being an up and coming team. Possibly some others too, but the others are where the opinions start to wildly vary.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2013
  25. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    I, now I feel happy I didn't.spend so many time in internet in that time. I didn't know BK was hating so much, I had impression people liked them. So I was wrong. But still like this team and think they were unremarked several times.
    And maybe I am only one, who was upset with KO retirement, because this made ice dance competitions level low and because I think LA are one of the worst.ice dance teams from Russia, but they were from Russia so judges need.to give them silver at OG.
     
  26. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I agree LA were extremely overrated and one of the worst teams to ever achieve results like World Champion, Olympic silver, European Champion, etc....That was the era of some of the most overrated teams ever IMO with Lobacheva & Averbuhk, Fusar Poli & Margalio, and Chait & Shaknovsky all inside the top 6 at once.

    I also really liked B&K's OD in 2002 and agree with what was said that it was completely original. Anissina & Peizerat and Lobacheva & Averbuhk had excellent ODs that year, especialy A&P, but they were more traditional, and B&K were very daring to use the music and theme they did, especialy knowing some wouldnt like it. Unfortunately their Olympic OD performance was not their best, and nowhere near most of their performances to it that year. At the Worlds they skated it much better and there were undermarked in the OD I thought, especialy when L&A didnt skate their as well as SLC, and D&V stumbled in theirs.

    B&K are definitely a polarizing team though. Most cases you either really love them or really dont get them at all. I am one of the only ones I know of who is in the middle on them.
     
  27. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I agree with this too. I never understood why people liked Lobacheva/Averbukh so much. Everything about them seemed sort of underwhelming. Their choreography, interpretation (especially when they tried to do American rock n' roll in both 1998 and 2003), music choices, and content just didn't seem that impressive. I know underwhelming is a funny word with someone like Averbukh hamming it up, but it always seemed too forced for me to buy into. Although I did like their 2002 OD quite a lot. I think they suffer when you compare them to the Russian teams that came before them and Navka/Kostomorov who came after them.

    I just think it's sort of funny how after Krylova/Ovysiannikov were forced to retire, Lobacheva/Averbukh seemed sort of rushed into gold medal contention just in time for Salt Lake City. I mean I know they were probably some of the better ones that cycle, but it just seemed suspicious to me. But then, one could see a million miles away that Navka/Kostomorov were groomed for 2006 gold after their 10th place ranking in SLC, and in Torino, it was sort of obvious the same thing was going to happen for Domnina/Shabalin even though IJS, his severe injuries, and the quick progression of Virtue/Moir and Davis/White put a wrench in those plans. Their bronze might as well been gold though since that in itself was a miracle feat, IMO.

    That I can't really agree with. Even at Worlds, I found their ice coverage to be severely lacking, and they really seemed slow throughout the dance. Also, I love Chicago and the Cell Block Tango, and maybe it would've been an interesting choice/interpretation, but there was just something off about their interpretation and performance to me. It seemed too tongue-in-cheek and cutesy. I sort of didn't get what they were going for with the choreography.

    I don't hate them as much as many on FSU here, and I actually think there were times I thought they were underrated. Like the 2001 Worlds OD, I don't really know why they scored 4th in that portion (but then I don't know how Fusar-Poli/Margaglio scored first either). And I admit that out of all the FDs by the top teams in 2002, Bourne/Kraatz had probably the best or at least one of the best ones that season, even though I think Anissina/Peizerat are just a superior team all-around and should have easily been in first in every portion of the Olympic competition.
     
  28. DaiKozOda

    DaiKozOda Active Member

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    Some seem to forget that in 99/00 (the season when Krylova & Ovsyannikov retired), Lobacheva and Averbukh weren't given anything: they were 4th at GPF, Euros and Worlds. L&A had better programs the following year and improved their results by getting bronze at Worlds - Bourne & Kraatz blew it in the OD where they had mistakes. In 2002, L&A surprised a lot of people by showing themselves better than they ever did before. Their OD in 02 was a highlight and, as far as I remember, some thought it was material good enough to top Anissina and Peizerat in that section of the competition. L&A also had their best ever FD in 02. Some may not like it but it was a good effort from them with some bits of originality. Bourne & Kraatz unfortunately blew it in the OG and I think they, as well as the italians, should had finish behind the lithuanians.
    It's been 10 years already and it still "hurts" to remember that Drobiazko & Vanagas finished out of the podium in the OG in 02.
     
  29. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Regardless there was no possible justification for Lobacheva & Averbuhk to place 2nd in the compulsories at SLC. Their compulsories were absolutely terrible and by far the worst of the top 5, and worse than many teams who werent in the top 5. That they did place 2nd in the compulsories when nothing about their previous results would indicate it, nor their actual performance, already indicated the fix was in to help them at that event.
     
  30. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Thank you, IMO this board and this thread can be too hard on L&A. I am not talking about people disagreeing with their CD placement in SLC, that's fine, but with the notion that L&A were just moved to the top just because K&O retired. They managed 5th in 1998 - with G&P and K&O still in the picture, they were considered better than FP&M, D&V, etc. With G&P and K&O's retirement, they would've been "ranked" 3rd by SLC anyway, so the only team they passed in those years was B&K.

    Now you can argue that L&A's 5th place in 1998 was not deserved and political, but I will note that it was better than K&F's ranking as the third Russian couple in 1994, and better than the second Russian couples did in 2002, 2006, and 2010, therefore, IMO not entirely attributable to politics.

    L&A didn't have a meteoric rise whatsoever. They lost bronze in 1999 to B&K who had mistakes, and remained in 4th in 2000 behind FP&M and D&V, two teams that had plenty of technical issues of their own. In fact, even if L&A had gotten silver in 2000, that wouldn't be a meteoric rise, because K&O and B&K didn't skate there. So they were actually dumped (I'm not even saying I disagree with their placement, just saying I don't see that they were the beneficiaries of Russian politics). They did eventually pass FP&M and D&V at the right time, but that's hardly the huge push that people are implying here.

    N&K and DomShabs give much more of an impression of being pushed to the top, because they were barely in the top 10 and then went on to medal at the next Olympics. But there are arguments on their side as well, such as some people feel that they were actually held down as the number 2 Russians and then their placements were more deserved once they became the top Russians.

    IMO N&K are not better than L&A either. Navka is better than Lobacheva, and I get that people would prefer N&K because they focus on the woman, and I'm usually like that too. But Averbukh was much better than Kostomarov, L&A were more equally matched and overall I think better than N&K. At least L&A skated their programs through without stopping and posing constantly (they did a little in 2003 but they didn't abuse it like N&K often did). L&A had much better ODs, they were always very strong whatever the rhythm. N&K did an outstanding job with a couple of their ODs, especially blues, but a lot of the others were quite average. L&A's FD in 2003 had some issues but it was extremely well received at Euros in Malmo, and they had some very exciting lifts and tricks in addition to great speed (I think it was too open though).... it wasn't worse than N&K's Pink Panther in 2004, which for me was the worst FD in modern times to win a worlds until this year. It was so cheesy and full of posing and N&K's lifts throughout their career always had the same feel (her flexibility and snaking her body around him)... I preferred their more serious efforts but there's a long list of superior Toscas and Carmens (K&P and K&O had very moving gala performances to Tosca and the Carmens are innumerable). I will give N&K the CDs but I would put L&A's best ODs and FDs against N&K's, no problem.

    I would pretty much say Russian dance has been going down the tubes since around 2000. With P&G, B&B, K&P, and G&P I don't necessarily see a clear way to rank them; they're all great in different ways. But I would say L&A were better than N&K who were better than DomShabs who were better than B&S are... and I can see I&K going down as worst ever with Morozov's help. :p

    Sorry for the long rant. One more interesting thought... we all seem to be in agreement that A&P were by some way the best in SLC. I agree. But this is probably the only time (other than Harding) where we had at least a little evidence of a skater being involved in cheating :skandal In that sense they are getting a huge pass, and had it been a different team in 2nd they might have caught hell. L&A were very gracious, and never demanded a second gold medal; in fact I think Averbukh said he was ok with the result, except that losing on a 5/4 split hurts. L&A's attitude generally seemed to be to work harder rather than complaining. They had considered skating for Israel in the mid-90s due to the depth in Russia, but they ultimately clawed their way up in Russia. They changed FDs four times in 2000 (a terrible idea!), they tried to move from Linichuk to TAT who wouldn't take them, and they did improve their programs by 2002. They didn't participate in the petition against C&S either.

    No doubt they turned a lot of people off with some of their crazy raggy costumes which epitomized the bad taste of that era, and her legline really detracted from their performances, but as their fan it bothers me to see people completely writing off their career as just being a team that the Russian federation stuck in K&O's place. I see them as hard workers who were not the Russian federation's pets at all, otherwise they would've made TAT take them and they would have been on the podium in 2000 and won the 2001 Worlds which was a poor field.

    BTW, I am not saying that they never benefited from politics... the top team from such a big federation always will. Just saying they had their good qualities too, and I feel it's unfair that they are always branded the worst Russian couple with the most egregious results.