Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Lnt175, Sep 6, 2013.
You sound like Vanessa Riley Ziggy.
She also had a Tonya Harding like diva do-over moment during the 1993 Euros SP that made her very memorable in the judges eyes, especially since she actually did better the 2nd time around. I actually really liked that SP, which I thought was superior to her Swan Lake program, but years later I realized it was because that music really skates itself.
Why did Baiul have better short programs than long programs. Well long program since she only ever had one.
Elaine Zayak, Debi Thomas, and Midori Ito didn't fit into the 'Ice Princess' box either. But unlike Bonaly they all could skate between the jumps.
THIS! Whole post!
Best post on the subject!
Too bad Surya didn't do figures long enough to teach her how to skate or use edges!
Please don't confuse 1993 with 2013. If such steps had been truly valued by the judges back then you better bet Baiul's coaches would have seen to it she'd have them. But she didn't need them. In '93-'94 it was enough. And she won. Bonaly and her lack of proper skating skills didn't. Thank goodness and good riddance.
This - in a nutshell. Imo, in the days of compulsory figures she would have been lucky if she placed top 20 at a Worlds or Olympics (in that portion of the competition) and top 10 or top 15 overall. Midori had far superior edge work and still struggled with the figures competition. I have no doubt that Bonaly would have been murdered by the judges in that segment.
Hmmm ... I admit I could not describe program construction very well in the 6.0 era but I could certainly tell this program was much more interesting than Oksana's.
Even this 2nd tier Malaguena is significantly better than Oksana's.
Quite frankly, just about every program from Albertville had better construction.
... And Scott Hamilton drooled over anybody he thought he could get to sign with SOI.
I'm thinking the only thing that made program construction unimportant was the very fact that Surya and Oksana had so much political clout as Europeans while having such poor program construction. It was a "the emperor had no clothes" situation ... perhaps this explains why the judges, freed from the bloc that supported Oksana, were so eager to give 1994 Worlds to Yuka.
So how long did Surya work with Frank Carroll? I wish The Skating Lesson had gotten some on Frank's time working with her.
Totally agree. I had forgotten that fact, and thinking about it now, find it kind of shocking. I suppose it may have been during a window of time that Frank may have had "capacity" to take on a top international lady. That, coupled with what was probably the influence of the French federation and the usual bartering influence that coaching one of their skaters entails, could have also been a factor. But more importantly, what a challenge! Frank C is so known for his ability to polish, and when he can do no more, seems to concede. Hearing Frank C's take on this dimension of his decision making would have been fascinating for sure.
But the performances were definitely not the same (at least in the LP) I've just gone back and watched all four performances and at Europeans Bonaly had a step out of a triple toe, doubled the loop and she repeated the Lutz without a combination so it didn't count for 4triples. Baiul actually fell on her triple flip, had both her hands down on a double axel (that was more or less a fall) and had no combination. I actually think from a presentation perspective Bonaly was better here at Europeans than at worlds. But at Europeans both skaters had mistakes but Baiul had the more glaring errors with a fall and a nearly fall on two jumps. Arguably the judges wanted to give it to Baiul but she didn't go clean enough.
Whereas at worlds Bonaly was completely clean with her 7 triples, various combinations, but I don't think she gave as good a performance as Europeans, Baiul went clean with all of her elements with a two foot on the final 2A of her inside axel-2A sequence, so the jusges gave it to her. Personally I'd have given it to Bonaly based on the technical merit. I'd have given Oksana higher presentation marks but still had Bonaly ahead.
Having just rewatched both 1993 performances at Euroepans and Worlds from them both, I don't think you can say this about Bonaly without it applying equally to Baiul - she telegraphed her jumps at least as much Bonaly and she had a way of holding her free leg awkwardly in front and turned out for most of the rink when setting up both the toe-loop and flip and also the entrance to the inside axel. The loop, salchow and lutz were all telegraphed too.
This is the weird contradiciton I find about Bonaly's jumps and the allegations that she had no edges. The toe-loop and flip did have really straight set ups that were really flat (like all coaches tell you to do with those jumps) - but she took it very literally - the drop three turn into toe loop was super flat, as was the mohawk into the flip. The lutz was beautiful off a strong outside edge - better than most of the lutzes the ladies put out there now. But the edge jumps were all quite swingy with lots of edge - the sal and loop really came round in a strong curve with plenty of edge, and while the axel had its own funny quirks - it also had a plenty of edge when she stepped onto it.
While Baiul did have better flow over the ice, I don't think from the ankle down, they were so vastly different, above the ankle is where Baiul had it all over Bonaly, her posture (except on cross overs), extension and line (and the fact she actually did things with her body/arms that aknoledged there was music playing) is what made her better than Bonaly. Baiul didn't have great runout on her jumps because most of the time they were saved and/or two footed so while they were clean on one foot there were issues with them
Should have absolutely won 93.
Basic skating skills, which Surya didn't have, were a huge deal back then, and we actually counted it in the TM and AI, if it was really bad or really good. I never understood how she placed as high as she did much of the time, and would have long, frustrated chats with other judges over it. It wasn't a matter of preferring any given lady (or country) over Surya, it was just the fact that she could. Not. Skate.
Stuff she she couldn't do:
Edges: depth, control, line, posture, speed (while holding the edge), flow
Jumps: flow in, flow out, amount of ice covered while in the air, cheats, lack of edge going in (which, at the time, was actually enough for a judge not to count the jump at all, if they desired)
Artistry: awareness of music - ability to move in some way harmoniously with the music, choreography making sense and exhibiting basic skating skills - there was not the emphasis on complicated footwork or transitions then, but much attention was paid to skating true edges versus toe tapping, running down the ice, hops, etc.
She did improve over the years, but it was too little, too late.
Thanks for a 1990s judge's perspective on Bonaly's skating. The last sentence is a little poignant about how she was judged later on. It's a shame many felt that way as I really do believe her Nagano SP was undermarked. Maybe it's because I've fallen for the COP mindset of a 3toe/3toe being worth more than a 3Lutz combo, but I really do think she should have been at least 5th (I would have had her in 4th since I found her spins and jumps to be better than Lu Chen's) for that SP.
Had Bonaly finished above Chen in the short program I also dont think Chen would have won the bronze over Butyrskaya even with Marias weak and nervy performance and Lus inspired one in the free skate. It would have affected the whole mentality of the judges going into the LP to have someone who really had no chance of a medal (Bonaly) ahead of you.
Both had labourous jumps that night, and Bonaly's deathdrop was under-revved. While Chen was nothing more than an average spinner, the way Bonaly lost speed during her spins, steps and spirals was and still is a big no-no. There's no way she should have been above Chen on either mark.
Aside from the one pop, Slutskaya's elements were clearly superior to Bonaly's. Both were clunky skaters but at least Slutskaya had and maintained more speed.
In this thread we are talking specifically about Surya's performances at 1993, 1994 and 1995 Worlds and she had good flow out of lots of jumps in those competitions. As it was already said, she took off from a deep outside edge on the lutz (and had a curvy, non-telegraphed entry to it) and cheated very few jumps except for the 2nd parts of some of her very difficult triple-triple combinations which very few other ladies even attempted at the time.
Are you talking about 1998?
I disagree with you on Bonaly vs Chen atleast. Bonaly's combination jump, double axel, and three spin elements were all MUCH better than Chen's. Their other 3 elements were more or less the same that night. I would have had Bonaly way over Chen on the technical mark, probably by atleast .3, and had her ahead overall based on that.
Slutskaya is an interesting case. Other than the double-double combination she was much superior to either Bonaly or Chen, but that is a big mistake vs their clean (well if Chen with all her shaky elements can be counted as a rough clean) skates that night.
Chan was definitely overmarked in both the SP and LPs in Nagano though, and her bronze was a dubious result at best. It was almost a make up present for the judges for times she had been undermarked in the distant past. Bonaly was definitely screwed in the SP, as a result of being a perceived has been, and so came back with her back flip int he long.
But didn't you notice that Bonaly's jumps, according to Marco, were "labourous" that night?
Of course Bonaly deserved to be ahead of Chen in the SP in Nagano.
Not just that night. Then again you always prefer labourous skating.
Solo triple to Bonaly despite slightly scratchy landing because of immediate preceding steps, combination jump and 2axel about even because while Chen was tentative, Bonaly's setup was plain awkward and for some reason she didn't properly check her landings that night.
Spins, spirals and steps and second mark all to Chen.
Did you even rewatch the performances? Bonaly's spins were slow and GOT slower. Her deathdrop was under-revved which was a deduction. Chen's spins maintained good speed even if they were simple. Good speed and stretch to flying camel and good arch to layback.
Bonaly had very little actual content in her steps even though she seemed to be moving from end to end.
Spirals looked about even in difficulty but Chen did exhibit better edges, variety and CONTROL. I had no idea why Bonaly had to fizzle out of all her spiral positions.
Adding in their respective basics, speed, technique, having Chen ahead on the first mark is more than fair. I actually think this was Bonaly's best short program but quality wise she just wasn't there.
Chen 5.4/5.8 (deduction for hesitant 3toe)
Slutskaya 5.2/5.6 (lower base mark by about 0.4-5)
Bonaly 5.3/5.4 (deduction for deathdrop)
Chen stalked her double axel forever, her jump combination was cheated and small, her combination spin was dreadfully bad (travelled badly, poor positions, not many rotations). No way would I have given her a 5.4 for elements or even a 5.8 for presentation for that performance. I actually agree with the judges who gave 5.1 or 5.2 for elements, that was about right, the 4.9 maybe a bit harsh but still more reasonable that the ridiculous 5.6 from the U.S judge.
I know from past experience those who dont like Bonaly will not stand to any reason on her so I wont even bother going into her further. Although 5.3 and 5.4 isnt that out of line for that performance, but as I would give Chen something like 5.1 and 5.5 or 5.6, that would still put Bonaly in front of Chen.
Under 6.0, Skating Skills were part of the technical mark.
Therefore, Bonaly neither had the whole technical package, nor did she have the presentation.
Bonaly did skate at the 89 and 90 Worlds when there was figured and did place top 10 in both. Although the fields were extremely weak in both as an old Claudia Leistner and Holly Cook were medalists at those Worlds.
This has to be the most un-ironic spelling mistake ever !!! I see someone'e ready for the upcoming season!!!
Haha so true. I didnt do that on purpose, I promise, maybe only subconsciously.
Did Chan have a sex change?
Please, no, I love him as a male skater !