Did Bonaly deserve any of of the 93, 94 and 95 worlds?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Lnt175, Sep 6, 2013.

  1. Sasha'sSpins

    Sasha'sSpins Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2006
    Messages:
    3,725
    ^^^
    THIS!

    I'm glad Baiul beat her in '93, to me Oksana deserved to win not only due to superior artistry but for the mere fact that in between the jumps she could actually skate where as Bonaly could not. I'm glad that someone with such poor basics never won a Worlds or Heaven forbid an Olympics and it makes me ill to think she even came close. Bonaly always looked like she was skating on double runners to me between her muscled jumps. She telegraphed her jumps, you could see them coming a mile away, she had a weird way of stopping, braking, turning and THEN leaping. Those jumps were okay in the air but she had no runout, no proper edgework or technique AT ALL. The only time I ever liked her was when I saw her live in exhibition and she did her famous back walkover. Other than that I was never impressed with her. And oh yes, when she gave her final FU to the international judges at the Olympics. That was cool.
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2013
  2. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2002
    Messages:
    10,582
    Not really delusional, since she would lose at worlds to skaters she had defeated at Europeans when everyone's delivery was not markedly changed. Also, other skaters who didn't address their shortcomings or even fulfill requirements didn't seem to have that held against them.

    And I hate when people call Baiul a 'complete package.' She could barely do a sit spin and couldn't handle complex programs in competition! Charming, charismatic, speedy, musicality galore, quality of movement to die for, but not a complete package as a competitive skater.
  3. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2003
    Messages:
    12,385
    Well, Oksana Baiul has never done any other turn than a 3-turn. I can't believe that someone with such a poor variety of steps won Worlds and Olys. :p
  4. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2010
    Messages:
    1,520
    Bonaly could have received the first ordinal at 1993 worlds free skate on the basis of her seniority. That seemed to be a category of merit at that time. It might still be now, but as much today is determined by your reputation with the technical panel.
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2013
  5. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

    Joined:
    May 9, 2002
    Messages:
    11,239
    For one, Baiul fell at Euros and messed up the final 2axel but was much cleaner at Worlds, landing 5 clean triples. But yes, Baiul should have been penalized somewhat for not having certain "required" / "expected" elements in the free. Were there such requirements back in 1993 and 1994? Then again someone brought up the fact that she did them in the short, so it is possible that the judges thought it wasn't like she was totally incapable of doing combination jumps and spins and footwork and therefore didn't penalize her as much as they should have. I am not saying this is the right thing to do, I am saying this possibly happened.

    Bottom line is, between Baiul who had shown that she could do more but didn't do them, and Bonaly who in the judges eyes were a much more inferior skater no matter how much she followed the rules to the letter, I understand why they went with the potential.

    Complete in the sense that she wasn't significantly and glaringly weak in anything the way Bonaly was. Back in those days no one was really doing any difficult choreography besides Chen, so she wasn't 'lacking'. By the way, Chen's sit spin was much worse.
  6. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,322
    Baiul was an interesting case in that there were so many things lacking in her actual program- jump combinations, variety of basic spins (either simple or difficult variations of them), no footwork sequence, barely a spiral sequence, almost no field moves, or good in between steps, and it was a cheesy and not that well thought out program with cheesetastic music. Yet in her actual abilities as a skater she was great when you think about it. Huge and terrific jumps when she landed them, her best solo jumps often rivaled Hardings in quality and power which none of her "rivals" including Kerrigan or Chen (and certainly not Bonaly) even came close to. Some beautiful spins like her catchfoot spins. Style, personality, ability to hit great positions and have great line, great speed and good running edges. I mean when you think of her just as her abilities as a skater and not how they are all put together. When one thinks of the quality of jumps she does do, the quality of her elements she does do, and her artistic potential and qualities, she is even a much better skater than say Kristi Yamaguchi, although it isnt put together into a whole program anywhere near as well which is why she would probably not come close to Kristi (or a strong Midori, a strong Kwan in later years, etc...) in a head to head competition. She definitely did not fulfill anywhere close to her potential as a skater, but the raw skills were there and far superior to Bonaly.

    So when I think about it more I can actually understand her wins at the 93 Worlds and 94 Olympics more than I originally did, especialy the 93 Worlds. While it wasnt all put together into a long program that well, her ability to do huge quality jumps, to hit great positions, to skate musicality and beautifully, to do some beautiful spins, are far superior to either Bonaly or Kerrigan so much so it can overcome that it wasnt put together to anywhere near her potential. Against a stronger skater it wouldnt be enough, but it makes sense it was enough to win in that weak era. When one thinks of say her Swan Lake program at the 94 Olympics (a program that does showcase her huge potential and abilities as a skater much more), and put her triple lutz from her long program into the short program, and it simply blows away anything Kerrigan or Bonaly could ever do.
  7. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2003
    Messages:
    9,938
    It also helps that you have people like Tatiana Tarasova saying that Sasha Cohen was one of the most talented skaters since Oksana Baiul in that 2003 Nationals fluff piece. Baiul also had one thing Bonaly would never have and that's Eastern European support from respectable professionals and experts. When you have people know should know what they're talking about waxing poetic about your skating talent, it's hard to argue against it in real life. Fans on the internet, however, is a totally different story.
  8. alchemy void

    alchemy void Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2002
    Messages:
    3,394
    I'm so tired hearing about "Baiul only could do a 3-turn". You guys are looking at 1993-1994 programs with 2013 IJS criticisms. Baiul's 1993 win wasn't controversial at all at the time and her 1994 Olympic win wasn't very controversial either (she beat an American and Scott Hamilton, of all people, did minimal wuzrobbing). This speaks volumes to the fact that the things Baiul didn't/couldn't do like MITF, good footwork, poor program construction, etc didn't matter much AT ALL in this era. Later on in 6.0 and especially today, they matter a hell of a lot more.
    TheIronLady and (deleted member) like this.
  9. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2013
    Messages:
    419
    There is a case for any of Baiul, Chen, or Bonaly winning the 93 Worlds. Probably not Chen since her short program, while clean, was not good enough that year compared to the others. Kielllmann from Germany you could even argue winning the free skate portion but she was 11th in the short.

    Bonaly at the 94 Worlds deserved 5.6 technically and 5.3 in presentation. Sato deserved 5.9, 5.9. She blew away Bonaly that day in everyway. Bonaly had big mistakes and a poor overall performance that day.

    Bonaly's best case is the 95 Worlds. Her skate was good enough for 5.9 technically and 5.8 for presentation. It was her most artistic performance ever and her jumps this time were great and lots of difficulty. Chen I would give 5.7 technically and 5.9 for presentation. Kwan 5.8, 5.8.

    So Bonaly would win the 95 Worlds overall. Maybe but not for sure win in 93. No way winning in 94.
  10. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2002
    Messages:
    20,569
    No she didn't. She should have been destroyed on the technical mark due to absolutely atrocious basic skating.
  11. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2013
    Messages:
    419
    You sound like Vanessa Riley Ziggy.
  12. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2005
    Messages:
    7,869
    She also had a Tonya Harding like diva do-over moment during the 1993 Euros SP that made her very memorable in the judges eyes, especially since she actually did better the 2nd time around. I actually really liked that SP, which I thought was superior to her Swan Lake program, but years later I realized it was because that music really skates itself.
  13. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2013
    Messages:
    419
    Why did Baiul have better short programs than long programs. Well long program since she only ever had one.
  14. Sasha'sSpins

    Sasha'sSpins Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2006
    Messages:
    3,725
    Elaine Zayak, Debi Thomas, and Midori Ito didn't fit into the 'Ice Princess' box either. But unlike Bonaly they all could skate between the jumps.
  15. Sasha'sSpins

    Sasha'sSpins Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2006
    Messages:
    3,725
    ^^^
    THIS! Whole post! :respec:

    And THIS! :respec:


    Best post on the subject! :respec:

    Too bad Surya didn't do figures long enough to teach her how to skate or use edges!

    Well put!


    Please don't confuse 1993 with 2013. If such steps had been truly valued by the judges back then you better bet Baiul's coaches would have seen to it she'd have them. But she didn't need them. In '93-'94 it was enough. And she won. Bonaly and her lack of proper skating skills didn't. Thank goodness and good riddance. :p

    This - in a nutshell. Imo, in the days of compulsory figures she would have been lucky if she placed top 20 at a Worlds or Olympics (in that portion of the competition) and top 10 or top 15 overall. Midori had far superior edge work and still struggled with the figures competition. I have no doubt that Bonaly would have been murdered by the judges in that segment.
  16. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2005
    Messages:
    7,869
    Hmmm ... I admit I could not describe program construction very well in the 6.0 era but I could certainly tell this program was much more interesting than Oksana's.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=polwvMNVgFU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

    Even this 2nd tier Malaguena is significantly better than Oksana's.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c19Hk1g0qrE&feature=youtube_gdata_player

    Quite frankly, just about every program from Albertville had better construction.

    ... And Scott Hamilton drooled over anybody he thought he could get to sign with SOI.

    I'm thinking the only thing that made program construction unimportant was the very fact that Surya and Oksana had so much political clout as Europeans while having such poor program construction. It was a "the emperor had no clothes" situation ... perhaps this explains why the judges, freed from the bloc that supported Oksana, were so eager to give 1994 Worlds to Yuka.
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2013
  17. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2010
    Messages:
    1,520
    So how long did Surya work with Frank Carroll? I wish The Skating Lesson had gotten some on Frank's time working with her.
  18. leapfrogonice

    leapfrogonice Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2007
    Messages:
    557
    Totally agree. I had forgotten that fact, and thinking about it now, find it kind of shocking. I suppose it may have been during a window of time that Frank may have had "capacity" to take on a top international lady. That, coupled with what was probably the influence of the French federation and the usual bartering influence that coaching one of their skaters entails, could have also been a factor. But more importantly, what a challenge! Frank C is so known for his ability to polish, and when he can do no more, seems to concede. Hearing Frank C's take on this dimension of his decision making would have been fascinating for sure.
  19. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2006
    Messages:
    3,248
    But the performances were definitely not the same (at least in the LP) I've just gone back and watched all four performances and at Europeans Bonaly had a step out of a triple toe, doubled the loop and she repeated the Lutz without a combination so it didn't count for 4triples. Baiul actually fell on her triple flip, had both her hands down on a double axel (that was more or less a fall) and had no combination. I actually think from a presentation perspective Bonaly was better here at Europeans than at worlds. But at Europeans both skaters had mistakes but Baiul had the more glaring errors with a fall and a nearly fall on two jumps. Arguably the judges wanted to give it to Baiul but she didn't go clean enough.

    Whereas at worlds Bonaly was completely clean with her 7 triples, various combinations, but I don't think she gave as good a performance as Europeans, Baiul went clean with all of her elements with a two foot on the final 2A of her inside axel-2A sequence, so the jusges gave it to her. Personally I'd have given it to Bonaly based on the technical merit. I'd have given Oksana higher presentation marks but still had Bonaly ahead.
  20. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2006
    Messages:
    3,248
    Having just rewatched both 1993 performances at Euroepans and Worlds from them both, I don't think you can say this about Bonaly without it applying equally to Baiul - she telegraphed her jumps at least as much Bonaly and she had a way of holding her free leg awkwardly in front and turned out for most of the rink when setting up both the toe-loop and flip and also the entrance to the inside axel. The loop, salchow and lutz were all telegraphed too.

    This is the weird contradiciton I find about Bonaly's jumps and the allegations that she had no edges. The toe-loop and flip did have really straight set ups that were really flat (like all coaches tell you to do with those jumps) - but she took it very literally - the drop three turn into toe loop was super flat, as was the mohawk into the flip. The lutz was beautiful off a strong outside edge - better than most of the lutzes the ladies put out there now. But the edge jumps were all quite swingy with lots of edge - the sal and loop really came round in a strong curve with plenty of edge, and while the axel had its own funny quirks - it also had a plenty of edge when she stepped onto it.

    While Baiul did have better flow over the ice, I don't think from the ankle down, they were so vastly different, above the ankle is where Baiul had it all over Bonaly, her posture (except on cross overs), extension and line (and the fact she actually did things with her body/arms that aknoledged there was music playing) is what made her better than Bonaly. Baiul didn't have great runout on her jumps because most of the time they were saved and/or two footed so while they were clean on one foot there were issues with them
  21. sk8ingcoach

    sk8ingcoach Active Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2012
    Messages:
    457
    Should have absolutely won 93.
    Vash01 and (deleted member) like this.
  22. Jasmar

    Jasmar Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    836
    Basic skating skills, which Surya didn't have, were a huge deal back then, and we actually counted it in the TM and AI, if it was really bad or really good. I never understood how she placed as high as she did much of the time, and would have long, frustrated chats with other judges over it. It wasn't a matter of preferring any given lady (or country) over Surya, it was just the fact that she could. Not. Skate.

    Stuff she she couldn't do:

    Edges: depth, control, line, posture, speed (while holding the edge), flow
    Jumps: flow in, flow out, amount of ice covered while in the air, cheats, lack of edge going in (which, at the time, was actually enough for a judge not to count the jump at all, if they desired)
    Artistry: awareness of music - ability to move in some way harmoniously with the music, choreography making sense and exhibiting basic skating skills - there was not the emphasis on complicated footwork or transitions then, but much attention was paid to skating true edges versus toe tapping, running down the ice, hops, etc.

    She did improve over the years, but it was too little, too late.
  23. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2003
    Messages:
    9,938
    Thanks for a 1990s judge's perspective on Bonaly's skating. The last sentence is a little poignant about how she was judged later on. It's a shame many felt that way as I really do believe her Nagano SP was undermarked. Maybe it's because I've fallen for the COP mindset of a 3toe/3toe being worth more than a 3Lutz combo, but I really do think she should have been at least 5th (I would have had her in 4th since I found her spins and jumps to be better than Lu Chen's) for that SP.
  24. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,322
    Had Bonaly finished above Chen in the short program I also dont think Chen would have won the bronze over Butyrskaya even with Marias weak and nervy performance and Lus inspired one in the free skate. It would have affected the whole mentality of the judges going into the LP to have someone who really had no chance of a medal (Bonaly) ahead of you.
  25. escaflowne9282

    escaflowne9282 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2002
    Messages:
    2,916
    deleted
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2013
  26. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

    Joined:
    May 9, 2002
    Messages:
    11,239
    Both had labourous jumps that night, and Bonaly's deathdrop was under-revved. While Chen was nothing more than an average spinner, the way Bonaly lost speed during her spins, steps and spirals was and still is a big no-no. There's no way she should have been above Chen on either mark.

    Aside from the one pop, Slutskaya's elements were clearly superior to Bonaly's. Both were clunky skaters but at least Slutskaya had and maintained more speed.
  27. David21

    David21 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2002
    Messages:
    2,030

    In this thread we are talking specifically about Surya's performances at 1993, 1994 and 1995 Worlds and she had good flow out of lots of jumps in those competitions. As it was already said, she took off from a deep outside edge on the lutz (and had a curvy, non-telegraphed entry to it) and cheated very few jumps except for the 2nd parts of some of her very difficult triple-triple combinations which very few other ladies even attempted at the time.
  28. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2001
    Messages:
    25,108
    Are you talking about 1998?
  29. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,322
    I disagree with you on Bonaly vs Chen atleast. Bonaly's combination jump, double axel, and three spin elements were all MUCH better than Chen's. Their other 3 elements were more or less the same that night. I would have had Bonaly way over Chen on the technical mark, probably by atleast .3, and had her ahead overall based on that.

    Slutskaya is an interesting case. Other than the double-double combination she was much superior to either Bonaly or Chen, but that is a big mistake vs their clean (well if Chen with all her shaky elements can be counted as a rough clean) skates that night.

    Chan was definitely overmarked in both the SP and LPs in Nagano though, and her bronze was a dubious result at best. It was almost a make up present for the judges for times she had been undermarked in the distant past. Bonaly was definitely screwed in the SP, as a result of being a perceived has been, and so came back with her back flip int he long.
  30. David21

    David21 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2002
    Messages:
    2,030

    But didn't you notice that Bonaly's jumps, according to Marco, were "labourous" that night? ;)

    ---

    Of course Bonaly deserved to be ahead of Chen in the SP in Nagano.
  31. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

    Joined:
    May 9, 2002
    Messages:
    11,239
    Not just that night. Then again you always prefer labourous skating.

    Solo triple to Bonaly despite slightly scratchy landing because of immediate preceding steps, combination jump and 2axel about even because while Chen was tentative, Bonaly's setup was plain awkward and for some reason she didn't properly check her landings that night.

    Spins, spirals and steps and second mark all to Chen.
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2013
  32. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

    Joined:
    May 9, 2002
    Messages:
    11,239
    Did you even rewatch the performances? Bonaly's spins were slow and GOT slower. Her deathdrop was under-revved which was a deduction. Chen's spins maintained good speed even if they were simple. Good speed and stretch to flying camel and good arch to layback.

    Bonaly had very little actual content in her steps even though she seemed to be moving from end to end.

    Spirals looked about even in difficulty but Chen did exhibit better edges, variety and CONTROL. I had no idea why Bonaly had to fizzle out of all her spiral positions.

    Adding in their respective basics, speed, technique, having Chen ahead on the first mark is more than fair. I actually think this was Bonaly's best short program but quality wise she just wasn't there.

    My take:

    Chen 5.4/5.8 (deduction for hesitant 3toe)
    Slutskaya 5.2/5.6 (lower base mark by about 0.4-5)
    Bonaly 5.3/5.4 (deduction for deathdrop)
  33. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,322
    Chen stalked her double axel forever, her jump combination was cheated and small, her combination spin was dreadfully bad (travelled badly, poor positions, not many rotations). No way would I have given her a 5.4 for elements or even a 5.8 for presentation for that performance. I actually agree with the judges who gave 5.1 or 5.2 for elements, that was about right, the 4.9 maybe a bit harsh but still more reasonable that the ridiculous 5.6 from the U.S judge.

    I know from past experience those who dont like Bonaly will not stand to any reason on her so I wont even bother going into her further. Although 5.3 and 5.4 isnt that out of line for that performance, but as I would give Chen something like 5.1 and 5.5 or 5.6, that would still put Bonaly in front of Chen.
  34. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2002
    Messages:
    20,569
    Under 6.0, Skating Skills were part of the technical mark.

    Therefore, Bonaly neither had the whole technical package, nor did she have the presentation.
  35. ohashibiles

    ohashibiles Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2013
    Messages:
    82
    Bonaly did skate at the 89 and 90 Worlds when there was figured and did place top 10 in both. Although the fields were extremely weak in both as an old Claudia Leistner and Holly Cook were medalists at those Worlds.
  36. escaflowne9282

    escaflowne9282 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2002
    Messages:
    2,916
    This has to be the most un-ironic spelling mistake ever !!! I see someone'e ready for the upcoming season!!! :D
    jamesy and (deleted member) like this.
  37. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

    Joined:
    May 9, 2002
    Messages:
    11,239
    Thank you.
  38. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,322
    Haha so true. I didnt do that on purpose, I promise, maybe only subconsciously.
  39. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2005
    Messages:
    17,988
    Did Chan have a sex change?
  40. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2003
    Messages:
    12,385
    Please, no, I love him as a male skater !