Dealbreakers (must-have elements and qualities)

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by gkelly, Aug 28, 2011.

  1. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    Over the past 20 years that I've been obsessing about figure skating, I've often heard (and occasionally made) the observation that skaters "need" certain elements to be competitive at a given level.

    The specifics vary depending whether we're talking about men or ladies, about world or Olympic medals or about deserving a spot on the Junior Grand Prix or anywhere in between, or domestically at lower skill levels.

    Usually these observations are predictions going into an event: Most skaters contending for this prize will probably have this quality or attempt this element and the winner will probably be the one who succeeds the best. But there are no official rules that any one quality or element is required to be demonstrated successfully in order to win (what if no one demonstrates it? then does no one win?). So the predictions don't always come true and sometimes someone does win without the expected element.

    There are two questions here:

    1) What's the minimum standard expected to be considered for entry to certain events (subject to limits on the total number of skaters or number of skaters from a given federation)?

    2) What's the most important minimum standard for the highest prize at that level, the sine qua non of a deserving champion?

    For this thread, I'm more interested in 2).

    We've had a number of threads and debates here about what should be most important. Posters sometimes explicitly state that they hate to see world or Olympic medalists with any falls or more than X number of falls, with multiple sloppy landings, with more double than triple jumps, without a triple axel, without a quad, (or triple lutz or triple-triple combo for ladies), with weak skating skills, with bad posture, with no transitions, with no expression, etc., etc.

    Under 6.0 judging, each individual judge could have his or her own dealbreaker when deciding between performances otherwise at comparable skill levels, but that information would have been private, maybe not even consciously articulated within the judge's own mind. Of course judges couldn't control more than their own rankings, but they could control those absolutely and could consistently refuse to give first place to a skater who didn't meet their primary expectation for a champion.

    Under IJS, it's harder for judges to control even their own placements on the basis of a single element or quality. If they so desire, they could inflate or deflate other marks to nudge the scores in favor of a skater who has that quality or against one who doesn't. But the system itself, the Scale of Values and the factors for the PCS, builds in priorities in ways that individual officials can't control. At most, when there is a consensus that certain qualities or elements seem to be receiving too much or too little weight, the ISU tweaks the rules to try to correct the trend.

    And even so, there is always the possibility that some days all the skaters who can meet that standard fail to come through and the one who gives the best ovefrall performance that day happens to be deficient in that one particular area.

    So what's most important to you? What's your dealbreaker?
    You may want to specify what discipline and what level of competition you're focusing on.

    Is it the kind of thing that IJS rules could be written or rewritten to support? Care to suggest how?

    Or would it require different rules for different levels of competition, too many variations to be worth legislating?
  2. bek

    bek Guest

    I don't think there should be any deal breakers persay as in a skater who doesn't have a quad shouldn't win. But I do think they need to do something about not having normal elements, based on level.

    For example why not make a rule that says a woman should show case five different types of triples/quads. For me if a woman has a quad toe and a triple toe that counts as two different types. And a man at the Senior international level should showcase 7.

    And for every different type that you miss. Then you lose 3 points of towards total score. And the rules should make it clear that falling, completely failed elements, counts towards misses. I wouldn't hit downgrades or slight two foots, slight hand downs. But stumbles, falls two hands down don't count.

    Of course though I'd also see perhaps a bonus for every 3/3 if your a girl or if you can showcase more than the 5 for women, 6 for men.

    I realize 3 points sounds harsh. But Kim losing 3 points for not having a triple axel (and I'd let her do 3 double axels) isn't going to kill her. But it will give someone like Rochette a bit of a reward.

    This being said Lepisto doing mainly double jumps would completely hurt her score, which frankly IMO should at this level. She'd be out 9 points at worlds in 2010.

    The showcased elements could vary based on level. Not having for example one type of triple, or one type of quad shouldn't be the ultimate deal breaker. But it IS a flaw. And those who have worked at mastering all the jumps should be rewarded for it. Right now the system doesn't reward it.

    I would say though that if you have a rule like showcasing all the triples that a skater should then be able to repeat an element they missed without the repeating rule counting. The repeating rule should only then count for elements that are competed. For example if Kim misses her 3 sal like she's prone to do, she shouldn't then be punished for doing a 3 sal instead of another double axel....
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 28, 2011
  3. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    Because very few women can meet this standard, and there are fewer men than you might think who can meet it either.

    For example:

    Miki Ando: No triple flip, no triple axel, no quadruple jumps.
    Yuna Kim: No triple loop, no triple axel, no quadruple jumps (and singled her flip in the LP at Worlds this year).
    Alissa Czisny: No triple salchow, no triple axel, no quadruple jumps.
    Evgeni Plushenko: No triple flip (as of 2010), no quadruple salchow.
    Artur Gachinski: No triple salchow, no quadruple salchow.

    And these are some of the best skaters in the world.
  4. bek

    bek Guest


    No woman would be penalized for not having a triple axel or a quad, as long as she had the other 5 triples. Since its not standard for a woman not to have a triple axel or quad.

    No man would not be penalized for having more than one quad. As long as he had all of the other 6 triples normal for a man. Since its not standard for a man to have more than one type of quad.

    But those who like Asada are missing a jump but can replace it with another more difficult jump like Asada doing a triple axel instead of a triple salchow. Woudln't be penalized. The important thing would be having 5 of them. Or 7 types if your a man.

    And some of those skaters you mentioned its not that they can't do said jump. Its that said jump is inconsistent for them. And they deem it not worth the risk.

    Ando's landed plenty of triple flips in her career. Plushenko didn't do a 3flip because of edge rules (that would be the only question what about the edge rules)...

    In the past it was quite common for female skaters to have all 5 triples under 6.0. Because under 6.0 you could be hit on the tech score for not having one of them. (Perhaps). Its just under 6.0 there's no incentive to keep in a shaky triple.

    And seriously a skater like Kim whose only missing one triple, wouldn't be that hurt by that if she had something else like a 3/3 to replace it. Its just that missing triples would add up. As it should. There would be no more lepistos only landing 3 triples (and only two types) medaling. That type of skate would be hit hard technically as it should.
  5. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    So how do you determine what constitutes "normal elements, based on level"?

    Do the same rules apply at Nebelhorn, or in the qualifying round at Worlds, as in the final round at Worlds?

    If you define "normal" as what you expect from a champion and give penalties to everyone who doesn't have all the normal elements, then most skaters at most events are going to be getting a lot of penalties in addition to not having all the valuable elements to work with in the first place.

    And should "normal" apply to non-jump elements as well? If you can't get enough variety of steps and turns into your step sequence to earn at least level 2, should you be penalized not only with a lower base value for your level 1 steps, but also with a deduction for including too few of the different "normal" kinds of steps and turns?

    Should women be penalized in the long program for not including a solo layback or at least X revolutions of layback in their combination spin? How about camel or sit, for both sexes? Would there be extra credit or penalty including an "abnormal" element like a solo layback as the spin in one position for a man?

    Do we want to make the technical content of long programs even more cookie-cutter than it is under the current highly prescriptive well-balanced program rules?

    Who determines which mistakes kick in the penalties? The tech panel? The referee?

    What about clean single or double jumps (popped or intentionally executed)? Do they count as mistakes to be penalized according to expectations of "normal" jump content? Even for lower-ranked senior ladies who are physically incapable of rotating one or more of triple lutz, flip, or loop?


    Personally, I prefer the idea of bonuses than penalties. Not everyone can do anything. I'd like to see the well-balanced program rules more flexible than they are at the moment, not less so. I want to see free programs be free enough to let skaters earn points for whatever they can do best, whether their skills are typical or atypical compared to their competitors.

    Short programs demand specific skills that skaters are required to attempt. Of course sometimes skaters earn their way to the final group and medal contention without executing all those elements; often skaters who miss more than one required element still manage to qualify for the long program in events that make cuts, on the strength of their other skills and the fact that there are more spots available in the long program than there were clean short programs. But for the most part getting to the final round, or the final group, proves that the skater has the "normal" skills for that level -- the only exception being the full range of jump takeoffs because of the limited number of jump elements in the SP.

    Maybe the program components could be divided up differently to let judges reflect their own personal pet peeves and dealbreakers. For example, combine everything currently under Choreography that has to do with program concept and musical phrasing into the Interpretation component, and then change Choreography to something like "Program Layout."

    Then write the criteria for Program Layout to include bullet points like
    Variety of jump takeoffs and approaches and Variety of spins.

    But as long as "Originality" belongs there as well, the rules will continue to have a place for rewarding skaters who include abnormal elements, which could easily make up for omitting one or more normal elements. Which, in my opinion, is not a bad thing.
  6. bek

    bek Guest

    If you are going to compete at the highest levels of this sport, than you should be judged by the highest level. IF this is a sport difficult/technical skills need to be objectively evaluated as much as possible. And yes that means a championship standard. And it seems to me currently that jump content only matters for some skaters than others. If a skater can do all the triple jumps they should have a reward over those who don't have the triple jumps. It doesn't mean that they necessarily should win. But they should have a advantage over those who did on the TES mark. And currently such skaters don't. Now if a skater is missing only one type of triple. Losing 3 points won't be that big of a deal if everything else is that much better. But if a skater is missing 2,3 type of triples it would be a much bigger deal and once again it should be.

    GOE makes it very easy for judges to inflate certain scores and not inflate other scores. Laura Lepisto's jump content was much lower than the technical content, that Ando, Kostner, Phaneuf attempted, but the TES marks didn't show it. The other girls really weren't given that much of an advantage, and I'm sorry it wasn't right.
    Doubles/singles are fine for intermediate levels and shouldn't be considered as mistakes. But at the senior level, it should be considered not the standard. Now different countries who have different levels of talent can come up with their own standards nationally and should.

    But if your going to be competiting against other skaters at the highest levels in this sport, you should be judged by the Championship standard. And if nobody meets the standard, than the person who comes closest to it wins.

    Perhaps bonus points would work better (and if they add bonus I wouldn't mind bonus for 3/3s) for women and men too. But I also can't help feel bonus points would lead to even more crazy scores. Whereas this person didn't have a triple loop- is easier to evalute mathwise. And if you give someone 3 extra points for every type of triple or quad they attempt, than you pretty much are taking off 3 points for someone who doesn't have the jump.
  7. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    If I recall correctly, before you edited your post, you actually said that women should be required to have five different triple and/or quadruple jumps in order to compete on the international senior level. If some version of that rule at had been applied last season, there would have been about eight women competing at Worlds and probably even fewer at Euros and Four Continents. It would also have meant scrapping the Grand Prix and Senior "B's."

    As it is, you would penalize a woman who had only four different triple jumps. It's rare enough to find a female senior-level skater who can do four different triple jumps without receiving some sort of penalty for underrotations or an incorrect edge.

    You are correct that CoP has caused top-level female skaters to reduce the number of different jumps, but so what? It's not as if all those triple jumps under CoP were fully rotated or on the correct edge.

    I think the declining number of triple jumps (by women, especially) is akin to the declining number of quadruple jumps that we saw up through the 2010 season. Younger male skaters who have competed mostly under CoP have found a way to do quads while doing good non-jump elements and earning high PCS. Some of their female counterparts are either already doing five different jumps or show signs of being able to do so soon.
  8. bek

    bek Guest

    I edited my post prior to the first persons response if you look at the times. And from the very beginning I said five triples/quads from a woman 7 for a men.

    And where did I say that women or men wouldn't be able to compete if they didn't have those elements? I never said that. I said they'd lose points for not having all those elements. Which is a different thing altogether. 3 points wouldn't be a big deal in the long run scheme of things. It would just give a woman with 5 different types of triples or quads (either one) a 3 point advantage over someone who has only 4. Hardly the end of the world. If we are going to add this kind of rule, I wouldn't mind bonuses for triple/triples and a bonus for a woman who has 6 different type of triples, or a man like Brezina who can do all the triples, and 2 different types of quads.

    Even with all five triples Joannie Rochette still wouldn't have won Worlds or the Olympics over Yu-na Kim. Although she would have narrowly gotten silver over Asada. Which I don't think I would have liked because Asada wasn't rewarded enough for the triple axels. But once again not with how much the triple axel is worth now...

    I mean most of the women who are competitive now have at least 4 different types of triples anyways. Most of the men at least have 6 triples/quads. What I'm suggesting woudl mainly punish doubles. And encourage balanced jump content.
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 28, 2011
  9. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    A woman who could actually land six different types of triples or a man who could do that and also land two different quadruples (without any falls, underrotations or edge calls) in one program wouldn't need a bonus in order to win the World Championship. :shuffle:
  10. bek

    bek Guest

    Thats not necessarily true. With PCS and GOE, its perfectly easy to take away that advantage. And to be quite frank I don't think it should be a guaranteed win. But I'm also convinced that this sport doesn't reward jump content whatsover. And that's ridiculous. I remember Daisuke with a clean quad, and two beautifully clean triple axels losing to Lambiel with no clean triple axel, no clean quad. sure 3/3s. So don't tell me that this sport properly rewards jump content. Lepisto's bronze says this sport doesn't reward jump content, her TES were fair to close to the others who landed 5/6 triples. Why bother doing triples at all. And Laura is perfectly capable of doing triples. She's landed in competition ever type of triple but the 3flip. The only reason she doubles is because she never gets truly penalized for doubling.

    To be frank I don't think it should be the case that just because a woman has a triple axel and all of the triples. That she should necessarily automatically win. Dido goes for a man with 8 different types of jumps.

    But I do think that TES should start factoring into jump content. And I think GOE makes it so that jump content gets nulified a bit. It shouldn't be the be end and end all. And if I'm going to argue that someone should get penalized for not having a standardized set. Than there should be a bonus for having more of the standard.

    And I also think taking points off for not having a standard set, takes away the necessity for giving 6 points for a quad fall that is ridiculous.
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 28, 2011
  11. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    Isn't it?

    Who were the last skaters to accomplish that in an international competition, World Championships or not? And has anyone ever done it at Worlds and failed to win the Championship?

    Březina, for example, had two falls in his LP at Worlds this year, Joubert lips, Lambiel never did two different quads and a triple axel in the same program, Ito skated before CoP, etc.
  12. bek

    bek Guest

    If the sport doesn't let someone with one quad and all the rest of the triples win. Its not going to let someone with 2 different types of quads and all of the rest of the triples win.
  13. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    Oh, it lets them win, if they use those jumps together enough other skills (basic skating, presentation, spins and sequences, easier jumps completed cleanly) to put out a better total package than the other competitors.

    What it doesn't do is guarantee that anyone who does those jumps will automatically come out ahead of someone who does not.
  14. bek

    bek Guest

    I don't really want a guarantee that someone will win. Just because they have the jumps. I don't look at Joannie Rochette and think "robbed" :lol: I just want a guarantee that jump content will matter or at least factor into things. That the less jump content you have, guarnteed the less points you will get. With no wiggle room.

    And what I like about my rule. Is while it really wouldn't hurt someone who only has 4 types of triples. Because said person would only lose 3 points. It would truly hurt someone who only has 3, and truly hurt someone who only has 2. It would put an end to Lepisto getting bronze with only two types of triples in her program. It would also hurt a guy who doesn't have a consistent triple axel or quad. Which it should..
  15. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    OK, so having all the triples and not falling are dealbreakers for you. That's your preference. We won't all have the same ones.

    Moving on to a different perspective...

    Suppose I'm an old-school judge or fan who likes to cite the cheesy mantra "It's figure skating, not figure jumping." For me, the dealbreaker is skating skills. I like clean jumps and fast centered spins, I admire difficult jumps and spins, I enjoy charisma and beautiful body line and musical expression, but what really turns me on is the way the blade moves across the ice. For me, that's what figure skating is all about.

    Under 6.0, I could say that priorities 1, 2, and 3 for me were edge quality (including jump landings among all the other edges in the program), average ice speed and controlled variation of speed, and variety of edge-based skills including, steps, turns, and jump takeoffs (with number of rotations in the air lower down on the list). I could look for the skaters who best demonstrated those skills and start them at a higher base mark than those with weaker skills. Then I could adjust the marks up and down depending on the difficulty of the elements attempted, the success of those attempts, and all the presentation criteria.

    What can I do under IJS? As an individual judge I could use wide ranges between the great, very good, good, acceptable, weaker, and just plain bad skaters on their Skating Skills mark. I could also make sure to reflect the edge-based aspects of the Transitions and Choreography components with high scores for skaters who excel there and much lower scores for those who don't. Maybe I won't score TR or CH above, say, 6.00 if you don't show me some rockers, counters, brackets, and choctaws on clear deep edges, turning in both directions, outside of the step sequences. And if you do meet that minimum for me, then I'll raise your scores even higher if and only if you do significantly more than the minimum and/or you also meet lots of other criteria currently listed for those components.

    I could also argue that the Performance/Execution component should be higher for skaters with higher skating skills because the program as a whole just looks better executed if performed with speed and deep edges; even a couple of falls from which the skater quickly recovers don't detract as much as slow, tentative or shaky skating on shallow or scratchy edges.

    If I really want to try to enforce my opinion, I could also inflate or lowball my Interpretation scores to keep them in line with the SS component even though those skills have the least in common. But that wouldn't really be the appropriate use of that component.

    Or, as an old-school purist judge or fan, should I lobby for rule changes that require certain edge skills to be demonstrated outside the step sequences and explicitly penalize for their lack?

    Or maybe build in bonuses for variety of turns, variety of jump takeoffs, etc. And also build in explicit ways for skaters to earn points for those skills in elements other than the step sequence?
  16. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Sorry but that is not true about GOE.

    GOE actually means you judge what you see and is the most objective part of judging a program. In a panel most judges will get it right. That is why the majority rules.

    You might get one judge out of kilter with the others, but when you analyse most protocols I have seen very few GOEs that overall are way off the mark and are usually pretty correct in the results they provide. Of course people are going to pick the crap out of one in all the hundreds of elements that get marked at a major event and say that is indicative of major problems with the system. But it is human nature to do that - we always look for the worst in anything rather than the positive. That is why so many people still when it comes to skating can't get their head around having a system that actually rewards the positive (such as positive GOEs). And we still tend to surprise ourselves when they happen.

    Judging brings in a human factor into all sports. But with any human system mistakes are a given. Sorry if that sounds like an excuse but it is actually the truth and it happens everyday in life.
  17. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    I think it would just be smarter to increase the point difference between jumps... :slinkaway

    After all the 1.9 point difference between the triple lutz and triple toe is extremely negligible and allows someone like Lepisto to get away with such a crappy jump layout. It would be much better if there was a bigger difference between triples and doubles and varied point difference between different triples.

    So something like this:
    2T: 1.2
    2S:1.3
    2Lo:1.6
    2F:1.9
    2Lu:2.0

    3T: 4.7
    3S: 4.9
    3Lo: 6.0
    3F:7.9
    3Lu:8.3 (because I hate that 3Toe-3Toe has a higher based value than 3Lutz-2Toe)
  18. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    I actually disagree a bit. I've noticed that as a skater's reputation increases, GOE does tend to increase as well.
  19. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    smarts1, at what point is that reputation bonus and not - "this more famous skater happens to be better than that non-famous skater ergo deserves more"

    Can you think of an example where someone with one quad and all the triples LOST to someone with no quad and all the triples OR a quad, but not all the triples?

    ETA: assuming clean skates, of course.
  20. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Actually what you might see, particularly with jumps, is that the overall quality of the element is also taken into account.

    For example, if a skater had a fall, but the rest of the element would have been a +2 without a fall, then an element would still be in the minus GOEs but not a -3 because you have to evaluate the element as a whole.

    Better skaters generally do better quality elements, even with falls or things that could reduce the GOE. But you still have to reward the positive aspects of the element, even if it does have a mistake.

    So to ask a question - if Patrick Chan does a brillant step sequence but has a fall, should he be given a -3 on that element when otherwise it might have been a +3?

    People may not like that but that is how the system works.
  21. vodkashot

    vodkashot New Member

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    Actually, I find that the skating skills mark can increase with reputation.

    Takahiko Kozuka, for instance--fantastic skating skills, but he was averaging mid-7s in SS for the 09-10 season. But last season, esp. with some new titles under his belt, he was up to the mid-8s despite the fact that there wasn't any substantial improvement (IMO, his SS was very good for awhile already).
  22. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    To be senior and competitive internationally, I think skaters should have a certain level of speed, edge quality and ease of movement. Not everyone needs to move like the Japanese guys, but they shouldn't all crawl like Kevin VDP either. That's why I was never for Bonaly winning a World title from 93 to 95 or for Caroline Zhang making Worlds in 09.

    I personally also have an internal standard for style and musicality but understand that these are way too subjective to be dealbreaker qualities.

    Encouraging different jumps and spins make sense but my focus would be on takeoffs rather than rotations. (i.e. skaters should attempt at least 5 types of takeoffs and all 3 basic spin positions as a diversity requirement, otherwise a deduction will be incurred)
    gkelly and (deleted member) like this.
  23. bek

    bek Guest

    But the problem with focusing on takeoffs rather than rotations is that it puts a woman who is missing a 3 sal at a much more disadvantage than someone who is missing a 2loop. A double loop, or a double toe can are tacked onto the end of a combination anyways. But a 3 sal has to begin a combination. Kim for example wouldn't be hit at all (since she does double loops at the end of competitions) But Asada would have to give away a valuable pass. And I really don't think that's fair. The only way that could count is if the rule stated that the double toe/double loop had to begin the combo...That's the only way said scenario would be truly fair.

    And I think in different levels there's a standard for accepted rotations. For example at some levels singles, should be expected as a norm, in others doubles...
  24. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Asada has been attempting all 6 takeoffs this past season. But say if Czisny doesn't want to avoid a deduction she can do a 3toe 1/2 loop 2sal, and Ando can do a 2axel 1/2 loop 2flip, for their 3 jump combo.
  25. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    While I agree with you about the difference of point, I don't think Lepisto has a crappy layout. She had 3Lutz, 3T/3T, two 3Loops...and her jumps have a good technique.

    Yes, that's probably true, but IMO, it's often deserved. In fact, I don't remember a bad jump with +2. But we see very good jumps with +0 or +1.
    The thing is that judges hesitate to give +3 for a very good jump, especially if the skater is not well-known !
  26. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    Not necessarily, now that something-half loop-salchow or something-half loop-flip count as combinations with full base value, as opposed to sequences with 0.8 multiplier as originally the case.

    One-foot axel-triple salchow combination has also always been an option.

    That or double axel-half loop-triple salchow would be viable plans to fit the required axel takeoff plus the salchow takeoff into one jump pass and still leave six more passes, including two more combinations, for a loop and all the toe jumps including repeats.

    Then if the skater lost speed on the back inside landing of the previous jump and couldn't pull off the triple salchow, she could still get bonus credit for including a double salchow as opposed to leaving out that takeoff entirely, but she would lose the difference in base value between a triple and double salchow. Same as if a skater ended up doubling the only triple loop or triple toe loop in the program that was planned as the second jump of a combination following double axel or a different triple. Only difference is they would probably have planned other double toes and/or double loops in other combinations.

    I think if there is to be a bonus for including six different takeoffs, I'd award a lower bonus (maybe 2.0 points) for accomplishing it with all jumps at least double, and a higher bonus (maybe 4.0) for accomplishing it with all jumps at least triple. For ladies, maybe the higher bonus could apply for five triples plus double axel.

    Otherwise, for skaters who simply cannot do triple lutz, flip, or loop, never have and never will (and there are plenty of senior ladies for whom that is true who compete internationally but not at the medal-contending level), rewarding only triples does not give them an incentive to try those takeoffs.
  27. bek

    bek Guest

    I'm fine with giving a slight bonus for doubles, only if there's a huge bigger bonus. for triples. The reason I want a bonus for triples is because I really don't think they are valued enough...
  28. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    I didn't think I had anything to contribute to this thread, but I do have a few thoughts.

    First of all, a deal breaker is often in the judge's mind. The reputation of a skater has a big impact when it comes to the PCS marks. The jumps have been taken care of, to some extent, by having the points assigned, and having a technical specialist. However, when an unknown skater or a skater with a reputation for being inconsistent performs well in a competition, those past performances are a deal breaker in some judges' minds. It should not be, but that's the way it is.

    From my perspective, it is not necessary to do all 6 jumps to get bonus credit. However, if a skater lands in competition a jump or a jump combination that no one else has landed, he/she should get bonus credit. For example, someone lands a 4S-3t combination, while the most other skaters can do is either a 4S by itself or a 4t-3t combination, the skater should get some bonus points. If a skater performs a jump for the first time ever in the sport, he/she should get bonus points (e.g. someone lands a quad lutz or a quad loop).

    It is not to say the skater must win because of the bonus points, but in a close competition that may be enough to put him/her over the top.

    There needs to be a certain minimum to be competing at the GP and higher level. I would say at least 3 different jumps (including 2A) for the ladies and 4 different triple jumps (or 1 quad and 3 triple jumps, one of which may be the same as the quad) for the men. In addition, a spiral sequence is a must for the ladies, but not the ugly kind we were seeing a few years ago, but rather one that expresses the music well and is well executed (secure edge, flow, position, etc.). I am OK with the current spins and footwork requirements. If a skater misses one of the spins or the footwork, there needs to be a bigger penalty, which could take the skater out of championship contention.
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2011
  29. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    This is very close to how the current TES qualification requirements for senior-level ISU Championships and Grand Prix events actually function.

    How would that work? Would you assign a higher base value to the element? If so, you would be lowering the comparative value of jumps.

    As it is, we have seen at least one skater taken out of championship contention for missing one of the spins. Carolina Kostner lost the 2009 European Championship to Laura Lepistö because she screwed up her third FS spin and was therefore deemed to have done two change-foot combination spins, the second of which wasn't counted.
  30. bek

    bek Guest

    There was nothing wrong with Laura's planned jump content. But Laura's actual jumps were 3 lutz 3t/3toe and then all doubles. And that absolutely IS a crappy layout. She almost always does a lot of doubles. If Laura had skated like she did at the Olympics nobody would have had a problem with Laura's medal. The issue isn't that Laura can't do those triples. The issue is that as long as Laura stays on her feet she gets rewarded with good scores, and the judges have never really hit her for doubling. She's been rewarded time and after time for doing much easier jump content than everyone else. And its not particulary fair. Especially since once again Laura can do 3 loops, can do 3 salchows. I won't scream at Laura for not having a 3 flip, yes I'd like to see maybe 3 points taken out for that. But in the end of the day, that's not a deal breaker. But to see a skater doubling jumps they are more than capable of doing, and getting rewarded for this. Whereas everyone else is doing 5/6 triples...

    And while yes Laura has great choregraphy and skating skills. So does Kostner. And Phaneuf skated beautifully too. And while Ando may not be my favorite in terms of personality or choregraphy. Her skating skills are fine too. I agree the ultimate deal breaker is lack of skating skills. But to me I'd like to see a balance between jumps, skating skills and artistry.

    Look skaters should do what skaters are capable of doing. I'm not going to scream at Kostner when she lowered her tech content last season due to her injury. Carolina did what Carolina had to do. But if your jump content/layout is going to be that much lower than everyone else's you should take a hit in the TES department. And looking at scores, I'm not seeing it.
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 29, 2011
  31. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    I agree, they can still win but give credit where it is due and deduct were it isn't.

    Here is an example were the PCS marks should have reflected what was going on out on the ice and was not. At worlds this year Aliona and Robin had a perfect performance and received a 71.93 in PCS:

    SS 8.96
    TR 8.79
    PE 9.14
    CH 9.00
    IN 9.07

    But at the EC where Aliona fell out of her SBS pairs spins they receive a 69.67 even though she stood there for over 13 seconds while her partner finished the element:

    SS 8.87
    TR 8.46
    PE 8.43
    CH 8.93
    IN 8.93

    They didn't get credit for the spin but points should have been deducted in the Performance/Execution category and was not. Maybe the judges thought the pairs spin deduction was enough, either way the deduction was not properly use in all areas or at worlds they should have received an 11.00.

    I was also rather see someone skate cleanly with all level 4s and triple jumps than skate cleanly with level 2s and quads.
  32. bek

    bek Guest

    Don't you think though it should depend on the quality of the level 2s versus the level fours. I mean some of these level four elements look downright awful. What if someone shows up with a level 2 spin that is original shows off new positions etc and is well executed. I'd rather see an original level 2 spin than a monstrosity of a level 4 one.

    Same with footwork although footwork does show of skating skills. Rather see fast, well executed level 2 footwork. Than clumbered, slow level 4.

    In general I miss seeing spins like Lambiel's 6.0 spins.
  33. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    I did say all of them skating cleaning, so all things being equal, just because someone has a quad doesn't mean they should automatically mean they win.

    They are plenty of other factors, just like if a skater falls but has all level 4s should/does win over someone with all level 2 and no fall because they have more points.
  34. bek

    bek Guest

    But you said the someone with all level fours and triples, and someone with all level 2s and quads. The level 2 person is making up points with quads. (not a little thing).

    Someone can be clean but still have slow labored spins etc. Its still clean. Just like someone can have clean jumps but still not be spectacular jumps. I remember Plushy scoring higher on spins in Torino than Lambiel. And some of it was that Plushy did work harder than Lambiel at getting level 4s. Plushenko's spins were "clean" and executed okay. But in terms of what to watch I wouldn't call them better than Lambiels. I know Lambiel said he had a hard time with the spin rules. He was taught to spin one way, and mastered it and then they changed everyting. He was hoping he'd get all plus 3s for his gorgeous spins but that didn't happen, and still do level ones. I'm just calling out in general that I disagree with the prefer level fours and triples to quads and levels 2. It would depend on the quality of the jumps and spins footwork to me. And I do agree that quad shouldn't necessarily mean you win..
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 29, 2011
  35. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    Taking the same attitude toward jumps...

    Don't you think it sh ould depend on the quality of the double jumps versus the triples? I mean some of those triple jumps look downright awful.

    What if someone shows up with a double jump combination that is original shows off new connections* or transitions is well executed. I'd rather see an original double jump combination than a monstrosity of a triple-triple.

    ;):shuffle:


    *For example, double lutz-reverse double lutz or double salchow-double half loop-double salchow.
  36. bek

    bek Guest

    Double jumps are something to quote Johnny Weir novices do. The ISU has ever changing rules on the subject of spins. Or a skater doing 7 revolutions instead of 8. Not to mention that levels on spins have led to skaters doing virtually the same spins over and over again. Bad Biellmans, slow...
    Most of these skaters should be able to do a difficult transition out a double jump since they all do triples. Not all of them can execute a level one spin, as fast and as cool as Lambiel..
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 29, 2011
  37. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    There are probably more novices executing level 4 spins than triple jumps.

    Do you watch much skating besides the top 10 or so skaters in the world?

    There are a number of ways to add difficulty to spins. The ways that are easiest to earn levels get seen a lot at all levels of competition. Some are rare because they're hard to do well enough to get credit, or because they're not officially considered hard enough to earn credit.

    There are a number of ways to add difficulty to jumps. Adding a rotation in the air is the most obvious and the most clearly rewarded in the scale of values. Other ways will only be rewarded in GOE (which may not be worth much) or in the Transitions component.

    There is currently no official way to reward opposite-direction jumps or performing two rotations from takeoffs that are more difficult as singles than most standard takeoffs are as doubles (e.g., walley and inside axel) or harder-to-control landings (e.g., back inside or forward outside). Those have been much rarer than triple jumps because they're harder than triple jumps, in addition to not being officially rewarded. If we could build in a way to reward them, then they would become less rare because there would be an incentive to try them.

    Combining jumps with unusual takeoffs or landings in true jump combinations would be comparable to developing an unusual spin variation that doesn't necessarily earn a higher level. Some could be extremely creative, extremely difficult, and/or extremely well performed.

    Why do you want to support that kind of creativity for spins and want to make everybody try to aim for the "normal" expected jump content?

    Saying that a skater leaving out the triple salchow or triple loop should be penalized would be like saying that a man who doesn't do a level 4 deathdrop or a lady who doesn't do a level 4 layback including Biellmann should be penalized because those are now "normal" elements for their discipline.

    Why not try to reward skaters for 1) doing whatever they do best, and 2) showing as much variety of types of jumping and spinning skills as possible, even if that means including some unusual skills at the expense of leaving out usual ones.

    By the way, as far as ladies who are perfectly capable of executing five different triples choosing to leave one out, the easiest way to encourage them to try the one they're omitting would be to give them a little more time and allow them eight jump passes.
  38. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    I would like to see a lack of musical expression to be a deal breaker. I know it's hard to make it objective because it cannot be measured. However, the way the COP is rewarding moves and levels right now, the skaters don't even need music to skate to. Just do the elements and get + GOEs. It could be a bigger part of PCS than it is now. The reason I say that is FS has been so closely related to the music that it is tough to separate the two, if you want a really great program.
  39. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    I'd like to see basic skating : edges, speed, fluidity, centered and fast spins, steps with good edge quality... to be a deal breaker ;)
  40. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    I would like to see Olympic and World champions be able to demonstrate all of the major jumps: toe-loop (triple or quad), salchow (triple or quad), loop (triple or quad), flip (triple or quad), lutz (triple or quad), axel (double or triple) and at least one combo (3-3 or 4-3).

    Also good spins (including camel and sit positions) and actual choreography.