1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Davis & White #16: Magical Wizard Hair

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by circuscandy, Mar 15, 2013.

  1. TanithandBenFan

    TanithandBenFan Author of the Ice and Edge Series

    6,258
    1,692
    113
    My friend and I were standing on the concourse during P/B's skate because we were positioning ourselves for a good spot for the medal ceremony, and a lady told us to move aside even though there was no one else around. Then here comes an older man surrounded by what looked like Secret Service agents, and he had the whole political smile and nod going. :lol: We had no idea who he was until the ceremony a few moments later when they introduced him as the Governor General.

    I totally love how happy Bobrova was! She looked like she was having a blast at the Skate America medal ceremony this year, too.
     
  2. Jessiebanana

    Jessiebanana Well-Known Member

    1,482
    57
    48
    My guess is that she just had Tessa and Scott on her mind and acted without thinking. She looked pretty embarrassed by the awkward situation created.
     
  3. mollymgr

    mollymgr Well-Known Member

    1,521
    740
    113
  4. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

    1,735
    188
    63
    Not to start any drama because I'm a D/W fan, but I would really like an answer to this. There has been V/M fan analysis done of each team's "edge quality" and strength of positions throughout all of both team's dances. The V/M fan opinions are that D/W are sloppy and "mask" it by tearing around the rink at a quick speed. They say that V/M have much better edge quality, but are so smooth and use fewer movements so that it "looks like they are going slow" even though they are going faster than D/W. The V/M fan theory is that they can cover way more ice than D/W without looking like they are even trying.

    There are complaints that D/W "recycle the same lift" yet V/M come up with new lifts every year. There are complaints that D/W have been doing "the same twizzles for years" while V/M modify their twizzles with choreography to match the music. I was unaware that there was a rule that all lifts and twizzles have to be new each year. There have been screen caps comparing Charlie and Scott's body positions and comments that Charlie looks like a football player who skates on both feet, while Scott skates on one foot (harder) while moving like a ballerina. There are even comments that Charlie and Meryl are using their long hair as a distraction.

    If all of this is true and D/W aren't the better dancers, then how do they win? The V/M fan conspiracy is that "they" (some monolithic group that controls judging) are against V/M and want to "tear them down" because they are not Americans (as if Americans win everything, all the time.) This sounds ludicrous. What reason would any federation or ISU have for tearing down V/M? They were allowed to win the Olympics, the biggest prize of all, and worlds twice when one of those worlds they were not at their best. I don't get it.

    I don't know if the V/M fans are right or not. My opinion as a fan is that Tessa has never looked as in shape since 2011 and looks like she is slower in her movements (even though she is very smooth). Her body lines just don't look as strong as Meryl's which appears to add to D/W's difficulty. About D/W recycling lifts. Skaters throughout history have become well known for specific maneuvers. V/M have definitely come up with some unique lifts which I appreciate, but if it was that important then wouldn't there be a specific score for "new lift" vs. "old lift"? Otherwise it's just arbitrary and opinion. Wouldn't Marina choreo some new lifts and new twizzles for D/W if it was that big of a problem? How do V/M have loads-better "edge quality" that is so visible to V/M fans but invisible to judges and other fans? Where is this extra edge quality and where can I see it?

    Again, I really don't mean to start an argument with this, but I would like a thoughtful answer from someone who knows a lot about ice dancing. I know this will never happen, but I would like to see both teams skate the exact dances and then compare. I hope that V/M fans who like to carry on in other places and make fun of D/W fans will refrain from quoting my post. Can't we all just get along? Thank you.
     
  5. Tesla

    Tesla Whippet Good

    1,993
    292
    83
    Thank you, leafygreens. I have wondered the same thing. :)
     
    tinypawsxxoo likes this.
  6. LilJen

    LilJen Well-Known Member

    10,611
    2,492
    113
    I want to know, too. If D/W are in fact sloppy and out of control and have horrible posture & extension, in contrast to V/M, who are absolutely precise, extend marvelously and have balletic posture, WHY would D/W be winning? Someone, please, explain?? The only REAL differences I see are in (1) body type: V/M definitely have an advantage in having more classic balletic proportions than D/W, which has nothing to do with skill--pure genetic luck and (2) the approach to ice dance: D/W have this total abandon that I haven't seen in V/M, who seem more restrained somehow. Whether you like either couple WRT these two characteristics is purely a matter of taste.
     
  7. Sylvia

    Sylvia Club comp. season is here!

    36,625
    11,158
    113
    Although Italy's Sonia Bianchetti was not an ISU ice dancing referee or judge, AFAIK (she specialized in singles and pairs), she shared her positive impressions of both teams' free dances in her 2013 Worlds commentary on her site:
     
    Sandypaws04 and (deleted member) like this.
  8. Kaffeine

    Kaffeine Well-Known Member

    1,313
    186
    63
    It's just a matter of taste. When someone prefers one thing to the other, they will "naturally" find faults in the rival. As I've said in an earlier post, both teams have flaws. Both teams are not perfect. You're never going to convince a die-hard V/M fan to love D/W and it's likely the same vice versa (for MOST fans. Some love both!)

    Suffice to say, there is no conspiracy. I still roll my eyes at that one. I think what's happening is D/W's hard work is paying off in a big way. D/W is not the team they were in 2010 and frankly why would they be? They've improved and basically are neck and neck with V/M and that ruffles a lot of feathers. It's nothing to do with bringing V/M down. It's more with D/W rising up to the challenge.
     
  9. semogal

    semogal Well-Known Member

    2,032
    530
    113
    I agree that D/W have risen to the challenge. They have listened to judges' criticisms, made a plan to improve in those areas and then worked their plan. Go back and watch Samson and Delilah or Eleanor Rigby, 2 programs that most on this thread love, and compare them to their 2013 programs. The improvements are obvious (even to me and I am not knowledgeable about levels and edges). Charlie and Meryl have earned their titles through hard work and dedication. And that is one of the reasons I love them.

    Conspiracy theories about USFSA manipulating things in D/W's favor makes me laugh. Even though they are the only podium finishers at Worlds or the Olympics for the US in years because they are ice dancers and not singles skaters they are relegated to second class status in both the eyes of USFSA and NBC sports. Canadian TV promotes them better:http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=4dgHPqMdQf8#t=330s
     
  10. circuscandy

    circuscandy New Member

    567
    36
    0
    They've really gone through that much trouble to declare D/W are objectively worse? Oh my. I confess I would have been far too lazy to do that last year when D/W lost at Worlds, but the idea did not even cross my mind.

    I don't know why it's so hard to admit that it comes down to preference of style now and nothing else. When D/W lost at 4CC last year, they were not at their best and I knew that. No drama. When they lost at Worlds, well, that was more controversial but when you give it away on levels, you give it away. I'm not a tech specialist so I just dealt with the reality.

    For me, personally, I don't even think any of the Canton teams are known for major recycling of programs. Marina may not vary the step sequences all that much, but in terms of choreography, she doesn't just copy & paste. We know that D/W put the rotational lift back in at the request of the judges. Every team has its signature lift or move, right? Tessa and Scott have/had the Goose lift. And Meryl and Charlie always vary their entrances and exits into the twizzles, if not the twizzles themselves, and they always make sure the musical timing is wonderful. Because, honestly, if they're getting the levels and the GOE, why risk it? Why change how they do them? It would be risky and rather silly.

    I love the dynamism of Charlie's full body performance. He is absolutely hypnotic because he moves from his toes to his fingers. Meryl finds her character and immerses herself in it. They are contrasting and yet perfectly suited to each other. And their style is one that I am drawn to. The seemingly wild abandon. The amount of control they have to harness the power they have. I like power and I like them, on a shallow note, aesthetically.

    Additionally, a lot of people harp on Meryl's extension, but speaking as someone who has the same leg line she does (that is, no hyper-extension whatsoever), it's not something she can change about herself, and it's hardly a distraction.

    At the end of the day, it's about the style. That's it. One team is not objectively worse than the other. And, frankly, I would hate to imagine a world where this rivalry did not exist, because I don't think either team would be as intense as they are, and the world of ice dance would be sorely missing something.

    Dave talked about how much he did not want Tessa and Scott to retire after the Olympics, when they won, and I totally agree with him. We might not have seen how far Meryl and Charlie could truly take their skills if they did not have an equal team to constantly fight with. It's just amazing, truly.
     
  11. mollymgr

    mollymgr Well-Known Member

    1,521
    740
    113
    Since the thread next door is ranting on about Meryl and Charlie's OD, it reminded me how glorious it truly was :). Recycled lifts and twizzles. :huh:
     
  12. lmarie086

    lmarie086 Well-Known Member

    3,465
    638
    113
    ^I was about to say the same. Loved that OD. May I say, I'd love to see them do another program in this vein? Doesn't necessarily have to be Bollywood, but I think they did so well respecting Bollywood and Indian culture. :saint:
     
  13. circuscandy

    circuscandy New Member

    567
    36
    0
    That thread is exhausting. At least it's really only one particular person (and no surprises who).
     
  14. literaryfreak

    literaryfreak Well-Known Member

    2,506
    312
    83
    I was just watching it too! Like Aunt Joyce at the end of his Worlds dance recap, I bow down to Meryl. :respec: She gets the role perfectly.


    The more they fault Meryl, the stronger she grows. :EVILLE:
     
  15. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

    13,298
    2,510
    113
    That OD is what made me fall in love with ice dance (and the Kerrs Scottish program)
     
  16. circuscandy

    circuscandy New Member

    567
    36
    0
    I still watch the Bollywood OD at least once a month. I have the music cut on my computer and I jam quietly to myself.

    I LOVE that Scottish program. I so wish they had used it at the Olympics. I look forward to seeing another man in a kilt on ice someday.
     
  17. literaryfreak

    literaryfreak Well-Known Member

    2,506
    312
    83
    That reminds me, I hope D/W do a midline no touching step sequence in next year's SD. I think there are three options, someone correct me if I'm wrong: midline, diagonal, or circular. D/W's midlines are the best. :swoon: The one in the Indian OD is the highlight of that entire program for me.
     
  18. mollymgr

    mollymgr Well-Known Member

    1,521
    740
    113
    ITA :swoon:
     
  19. circuscandy

    circuscandy New Member

    567
    36
    0
    Yes yes yes yes yes.
     
  20. Whitneyskates

    Whitneyskates Well-Known Member

    1,009
    100
    63
    I agree! D/W can rock a non-touching step sequence like no one's busines. :respec:

    One of the commentators (might have been Tanith) pointed out that the reason D/W get such high levels and GEO on their non-touch step sequences is because of control. They maintain the same distance between each other throughout the sequence, where as a lot of teams will drift toward or away from each other.
     
  21. TanithandBenFan

    TanithandBenFan Author of the Ice and Edge Series

    6,258
    1,692
    113
    Thinking about step sequences, we never got to see M&C do a serpentine step sequence as seniors since 2006 was the last season it was required. I would love to see them blow through one of those with the skills they have now (they did one in their '06 FD as juniors I think).
     
  22. lmarie086

    lmarie086 Well-Known Member

    3,465
    638
    113
    I'm right there with you!! Though there were so many highlights in that OD (the whole thing was a highlight, really), that does stand out. I'd to see this, as well as a serpentine step sequence like TanithandBenFan mentioned. They would rock that now :swoon:
     
  23. Jessiebanana

    Jessiebanana Well-Known Member

    1,482
    57
    48
    I am so tired of hearing all the flack over Davis and White recycling a lift :rolleyes:. One d*mn lift...give me a break and they give us that first masterpiece and that spin. All of V/M lift positions aren't new, so unless they've been a fan for a minute they should know that. It's not even worth addressing, but it's so frustrating to hear over and over again. Ice dancers build on their technique and that means reusing and reworking elements.

    As for the twizzles...I'm sure some very mad V/M fans would love if they dropped their hops and jumps into twizzles. The way I see it, D/W are doing a whole other level of twizzle, not so much a style. No one else is capable of doing it, so why should they give up their advantage? They can call it reusing if it makes them feel better. I'm sure they'll say the same thing about their spins soon...though spinning inverted (tango) and jumping into spins sounds like variation to me...if I recall V/M reused their Mahler position.

    tl;dr people see what they want to see.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2013
  24. Spun Silver

    Spun Silver Well-Known Member

    3,681
    1,956
    113
    I read somewhere at the beginning of the season that the judges specifically asked M/C to put the Fledermaus rotational lift into the new FD. Doesn't that pretty much take care of that criticism?
     
  25. circuscandy

    circuscandy New Member

    567
    36
    0
    Evidently not. Sigh.
     
  26. Jessiebanana

    Jessiebanana Well-Known Member

    1,482
    57
    48
    *Sigh* It should...and unfortunately it wasn't just fans saying this, it was commentators too.
     
  27. OnyxRose81

    OnyxRose81 Active Member

    597
    69
    28

    I haven't been on the forum for the last couple of days but I simply have to applaud this post. :respec: I wasn't a huge fan of ice dancing before Vancouver; I did watch over the years but the Canton couples are what pulled me into the sport. I love D/W and I love V/M but I do prefer D/W just because I am a fan of that particular style of ice dance.
     
  28. ballettmaus

    ballettmaus Well-Known Member

    2,312
    871
    113
    I don't think there's a dance team out there these days that is not re-using at least one lift. Maybe with a slight variation but essentially, it's likely to be the same. Those who are bothered by it should critisize the new judging system and the acrobatic elements the lifts need to include. There's only so much a couple can do and can come up with that stays within all the rules and gets the anticipated level.
     
  29. Whitneyskates

    Whitneyskates Well-Known Member

    1,009
    100
    63
    It really is becoming a redundant argument. W/P, no matter how much I love them, have been doing the same lifts for about 6 seasons now. And V/M recycled a couple lifts from Pink Floyd for Mahler, but I guess it's ok if V/M do it.
     
  30. TanithandBenFan

    TanithandBenFan Author of the Ice and Edge Series

    6,258
    1,692
    113
    I love W/P too, but if I see that rotational lift with her blade to her head in one more of their programs.....:scream: They've done it in both their SD and FD in the same season!

    Sorry for the off-topic momentary rant. :lol: