Davis & White #16: Magical Wizard Hair

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by circuscandy, Mar 15, 2013.

  1. TanithandBenFan

    TanithandBenFan U.S. Ice Dance Junkie

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    My friend and I were standing on the concourse during P/B's skate because we were positioning ourselves for a good spot for the medal ceremony, and a lady told us to move aside even though there was no one else around. Then here comes an older man surrounded by what looked like Secret Service agents, and he had the whole political smile and nod going. :lol: We had no idea who he was until the ceremony a few moments later when they introduced him as the Governor General.

    I totally love how happy Bobrova was! She looked like she was having a blast at the Skate America medal ceremony this year, too.
  2. Jessiebanana

    Jessiebanana Well-Known Member

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    My guess is that she just had Tessa and Scott on her mind and acted without thinking. She looked pretty embarrassed by the awkward situation created.
  3. mollymgr

    mollymgr Well-Known Member

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  4. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    Not to start any drama because I'm a D/W fan, but I would really like an answer to this. There has been V/M fan analysis done of each team's "edge quality" and strength of positions throughout all of both team's dances. The V/M fan opinions are that D/W are sloppy and "mask" it by tearing around the rink at a quick speed. They say that V/M have much better edge quality, but are so smooth and use fewer movements so that it "looks like they are going slow" even though they are going faster than D/W. The V/M fan theory is that they can cover way more ice than D/W without looking like they are even trying.

    There are complaints that D/W "recycle the same lift" yet V/M come up with new lifts every year. There are complaints that D/W have been doing "the same twizzles for years" while V/M modify their twizzles with choreography to match the music. I was unaware that there was a rule that all lifts and twizzles have to be new each year. There have been screen caps comparing Charlie and Scott's body positions and comments that Charlie looks like a football player who skates on both feet, while Scott skates on one foot (harder) while moving like a ballerina. There are even comments that Charlie and Meryl are using their long hair as a distraction.

    If all of this is true and D/W aren't the better dancers, then how do they win? The V/M fan conspiracy is that "they" (some monolithic group that controls judging) are against V/M and want to "tear them down" because they are not Americans (as if Americans win everything, all the time.) This sounds ludicrous. What reason would any federation or ISU have for tearing down V/M? They were allowed to win the Olympics, the biggest prize of all, and worlds twice when one of those worlds they were not at their best. I don't get it.

    I don't know if the V/M fans are right or not. My opinion as a fan is that Tessa has never looked as in shape since 2011 and looks like she is slower in her movements (even though she is very smooth). Her body lines just don't look as strong as Meryl's which appears to add to D/W's difficulty. About D/W recycling lifts. Skaters throughout history have become well known for specific maneuvers. V/M have definitely come up with some unique lifts which I appreciate, but if it was that important then wouldn't there be a specific score for "new lift" vs. "old lift"? Otherwise it's just arbitrary and opinion. Wouldn't Marina choreo some new lifts and new twizzles for D/W if it was that big of a problem? How do V/M have loads-better "edge quality" that is so visible to V/M fans but invisible to judges and other fans? Where is this extra edge quality and where can I see it?

    Again, I really don't mean to start an argument with this, but I would like a thoughtful answer from someone who knows a lot about ice dancing. I know this will never happen, but I would like to see both teams skate the exact dances and then compare. I hope that V/M fans who like to carry on in other places and make fun of D/W fans will refrain from quoting my post. Can't we all just get along? Thank you.
  5. Tesla

    Tesla Whippet Good

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    Thank you, leafygreens. I have wondered the same thing. :)
    tinypawsxxoo likes this.
  6. LilJen

    LilJen Well-Known Member

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    I want to know, too. If D/W are in fact sloppy and out of control and have horrible posture & extension, in contrast to V/M, who are absolutely precise, extend marvelously and have balletic posture, WHY would D/W be winning? Someone, please, explain?? The only REAL differences I see are in (1) body type: V/M definitely have an advantage in having more classic balletic proportions than D/W, which has nothing to do with skill--pure genetic luck and (2) the approach to ice dance: D/W have this total abandon that I haven't seen in V/M, who seem more restrained somehow. Whether you like either couple WRT these two characteristics is purely a matter of taste.
  7. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Although Italy's Sonia Bianchetti was not an ISU ice dancing referee or judge, AFAIK (she specialized in singles and pairs), she shared her positive impressions of both teams' free dances in her 2013 Worlds commentary on her site:
    Sandypaws04 and (deleted member) like this.
  8. Kaffeine

    Kaffeine Well-Known Member

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    It's just a matter of taste. When someone prefers one thing to the other, they will "naturally" find faults in the rival. As I've said in an earlier post, both teams have flaws. Both teams are not perfect. You're never going to convince a die-hard V/M fan to love D/W and it's likely the same vice versa (for MOST fans. Some love both!)

    Suffice to say, there is no conspiracy. I still roll my eyes at that one. I think what's happening is D/W's hard work is paying off in a big way. D/W is not the team they were in 2010 and frankly why would they be? They've improved and basically are neck and neck with V/M and that ruffles a lot of feathers. It's nothing to do with bringing V/M down. It's more with D/W rising up to the challenge.
  9. semogal

    semogal Well-Known Member

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    I agree that D/W have risen to the challenge. They have listened to judges' criticisms, made a plan to improve in those areas and then worked their plan. Go back and watch Samson and Delilah or Eleanor Rigby, 2 programs that most on this thread love, and compare them to their 2013 programs. The improvements are obvious (even to me and I am not knowledgeable about levels and edges). Charlie and Meryl have earned their titles through hard work and dedication. And that is one of the reasons I love them.

    Conspiracy theories about USFSA manipulating things in D/W's favor makes me laugh. Even though they are the only podium finishers at Worlds or the Olympics for the US in years because they are ice dancers and not singles skaters they are relegated to second class status in both the eyes of USFSA and NBC sports. Canadian TV promotes them better:http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=4dgHPqMdQf8#t=330s
  10. circuscandy

    circuscandy New Member

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    They've really gone through that much trouble to declare D/W are objectively worse? Oh my. I confess I would have been far too lazy to do that last year when D/W lost at Worlds, but the idea did not even cross my mind.

    I don't know why it's so hard to admit that it comes down to preference of style now and nothing else. When D/W lost at 4CC last year, they were not at their best and I knew that. No drama. When they lost at Worlds, well, that was more controversial but when you give it away on levels, you give it away. I'm not a tech specialist so I just dealt with the reality.

    For me, personally, I don't even think any of the Canton teams are known for major recycling of programs. Marina may not vary the step sequences all that much, but in terms of choreography, she doesn't just copy & paste. We know that D/W put the rotational lift back in at the request of the judges. Every team has its signature lift or move, right? Tessa and Scott have/had the Goose lift. And Meryl and Charlie always vary their entrances and exits into the twizzles, if not the twizzles themselves, and they always make sure the musical timing is wonderful. Because, honestly, if they're getting the levels and the GOE, why risk it? Why change how they do them? It would be risky and rather silly.

    I love the dynamism of Charlie's full body performance. He is absolutely hypnotic because he moves from his toes to his fingers. Meryl finds her character and immerses herself in it. They are contrasting and yet perfectly suited to each other. And their style is one that I am drawn to. The seemingly wild abandon. The amount of control they have to harness the power they have. I like power and I like them, on a shallow note, aesthetically.

    Additionally, a lot of people harp on Meryl's extension, but speaking as someone who has the same leg line she does (that is, no hyper-extension whatsoever), it's not something she can change about herself, and it's hardly a distraction.

    At the end of the day, it's about the style. That's it. One team is not objectively worse than the other. And, frankly, I would hate to imagine a world where this rivalry did not exist, because I don't think either team would be as intense as they are, and the world of ice dance would be sorely missing something.

    Dave talked about how much he did not want Tessa and Scott to retire after the Olympics, when they won, and I totally agree with him. We might not have seen how far Meryl and Charlie could truly take their skills if they did not have an equal team to constantly fight with. It's just amazing, truly.
  11. mollymgr

    mollymgr Well-Known Member

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    Since the thread next door is ranting on about Meryl and Charlie's OD, it reminded me how glorious it truly was :). Recycled lifts and twizzles. :huh:
  12. lmarie086

    lmarie086 Well-Known Member

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    ^I was about to say the same. Loved that OD. May I say, I'd love to see them do another program in this vein? Doesn't necessarily have to be Bollywood, but I think they did so well respecting Bollywood and Indian culture. :saint:
  13. circuscandy

    circuscandy New Member

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    That thread is exhausting. At least it's really only one particular person (and no surprises who).
  14. literaryfreak

    literaryfreak Well-Known Member

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    I was just watching it too! Like Aunt Joyce at the end of his Worlds dance recap, I bow down to Meryl. :respec: She gets the role perfectly.


    The more they fault Meryl, the stronger she grows. :EVILLE:
  15. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    That OD is what made me fall in love with ice dance (and the Kerrs Scottish program)
  16. circuscandy

    circuscandy New Member

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    I still watch the Bollywood OD at least once a month. I have the music cut on my computer and I jam quietly to myself.

    I LOVE that Scottish program. I so wish they had used it at the Olympics. I look forward to seeing another man in a kilt on ice someday.
  17. literaryfreak

    literaryfreak Well-Known Member

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    That reminds me, I hope D/W do a midline no touching step sequence in next year's SD. I think there are three options, someone correct me if I'm wrong: midline, diagonal, or circular. D/W's midlines are the best. :swoon: The one in the Indian OD is the highlight of that entire program for me.
  18. mollymgr

    mollymgr Well-Known Member

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    ITA :swoon:
  19. circuscandy

    circuscandy New Member

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    Yes yes yes yes yes.
  20. Whitneyskates

    Whitneyskates New Member

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    I agree! D/W can rock a non-touching step sequence like no one's busines. :respec:

    One of the commentators (might have been Tanith) pointed out that the reason D/W get such high levels and GEO on their non-touch step sequences is because of control. They maintain the same distance between each other throughout the sequence, where as a lot of teams will drift toward or away from each other.
  21. TanithandBenFan

    TanithandBenFan U.S. Ice Dance Junkie

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    Thinking about step sequences, we never got to see M&C do a serpentine step sequence as seniors since 2006 was the last season it was required. I would love to see them blow through one of those with the skills they have now (they did one in their '06 FD as juniors I think).
  22. lmarie086

    lmarie086 Well-Known Member

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    I'm right there with you!! Though there were so many highlights in that OD (the whole thing was a highlight, really), that does stand out. I'd to see this, as well as a serpentine step sequence like TanithandBenFan mentioned. They would rock that now :swoon:
  23. Jessiebanana

    Jessiebanana Well-Known Member

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    I am so tired of hearing all the flack over Davis and White recycling a lift :rolleyes:. One d*mn lift...give me a break and they give us that first masterpiece and that spin. All of V/M lift positions aren't new, so unless they've been a fan for a minute they should know that. It's not even worth addressing, but it's so frustrating to hear over and over again. Ice dancers build on their technique and that means reusing and reworking elements.

    As for the twizzles...I'm sure some very mad V/M fans would love if they dropped their hops and jumps into twizzles. The way I see it, D/W are doing a whole other level of twizzle, not so much a style. No one else is capable of doing it, so why should they give up their advantage? They can call it reusing if it makes them feel better. I'm sure they'll say the same thing about their spins soon...though spinning inverted (tango) and jumping into spins sounds like variation to me...if I recall V/M reused their Mahler position.

    tl;dr people see what they want to see.
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2013
  24. Spun Silver

    Spun Silver Well-Known Member

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    I read somewhere at the beginning of the season that the judges specifically asked M/C to put the Fledermaus rotational lift into the new FD. Doesn't that pretty much take care of that criticism?
  25. circuscandy

    circuscandy New Member

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    Evidently not. Sigh.
  26. Jessiebanana

    Jessiebanana Well-Known Member

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    *Sigh* It should...and unfortunately it wasn't just fans saying this, it was commentators too.
  27. OnyxRose81

    OnyxRose81 Active Member

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    I haven't been on the forum for the last couple of days but I simply have to applaud this post. :respec: I wasn't a huge fan of ice dancing before Vancouver; I did watch over the years but the Canton couples are what pulled me into the sport. I love D/W and I love V/M but I do prefer D/W just because I am a fan of that particular style of ice dance.
  28. ballettmaus

    ballettmaus Well-Known Member

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    I don't think there's a dance team out there these days that is not re-using at least one lift. Maybe with a slight variation but essentially, it's likely to be the same. Those who are bothered by it should critisize the new judging system and the acrobatic elements the lifts need to include. There's only so much a couple can do and can come up with that stays within all the rules and gets the anticipated level.
  29. Whitneyskates

    Whitneyskates New Member

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    It really is becoming a redundant argument. W/P, no matter how much I love them, have been doing the same lifts for about 6 seasons now. And V/M recycled a couple lifts from Pink Floyd for Mahler, but I guess it's ok if V/M do it.
  30. TanithandBenFan

    TanithandBenFan U.S. Ice Dance Junkie

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    I love W/P too, but if I see that rotational lift with her blade to her head in one more of their programs.....:scream: They've done it in both their SD and FD in the same season!

    Sorry for the off-topic momentary rant. :lol:
  31. iamawake2

    iamawake2 Member

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    i live in Seattle and I would love to find a similar hair attachment like what Meryl used. I would be very happy for my thinning hair!
  32. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    D/W look like they are attacking and going out there to win, every time. Since the surgery, it does not appear as if V/M have gotten back their joie de vivre. They almost look scared when they take the ice, when D/W look exceptionally confident (minus Scott's "roar".) NOT THAT I AM BLAMING V/M for the surgery; it's something they can't help. (If I don't type this out the V/M fans will run with it - "The D/W ubers are blaming them!!!" even though I'm not an uber, I'm just a fan and not blaming anyone.)

    Other than the different types of dance - sharp vs. soft - I have yet to see a critique of actual skating technique. If technique means that Scott's legs are touching while Charlie's are separated, is that truly something that causes points to go down? If so, there's no reason why D/W should be winning. Apparently, the details like leg position during twizzles is a matter of preference, not something that is judged. In the USFSA MIF tests, there is often language about "skater is given complete freedom with respect to leg and arm positions." I believe that if these positions were judged in IJS scoring, that the MIF tests would specify a certain position.

    There are criticisms that D/W skate on "two feet" but V/M are always perfectly perched on one foot (harder). Ok, but there were multiple times during Carmen that V/M skated on two feet, so I don't know where this is even coming from. There are criticisms that D/W don't flow out of their twizzles, yet D/W's flow looked great. So did V/M's, but Tessa clunked down at the exit of their last Carmen twizzle. There are criticisms that D/W stole their lift from Belbin & Agosto, which is funny because even if it's the same lift, D/W's is so much better. If anything, B/A's split was more vertical where D/W's split is completely horizontal, so I wouldn't even call it the same lift. Ice coverage: at world's D/W had great ice coverage, and they covered almost the entire rink with their front-to-back spirals, while power pulling. I'm not saying that D/W are perfect by any means! But there seems to be some highly selective criticism going on.

    I believe now that the old saying that "V/M can skate to obscure music but D/W have to use popular music" has been thoroughly debunked, there are just lies being made up about "flow" and such.
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2013
  33. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

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    V/M skated their final Carmen very well, with no visible errors, but they were just a trifle slower and more careful than in their previous performances. I do think that was not only to avoid missteps, but also to protect Tessa from cramping. The end result was a great technical performance but it lacked the tension and explosiveness of earlier efforts. Still, well done.
  34. circuscandy

    circuscandy New Member

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    Daily Dose of DJ™

    "CharlieaWhite Sometimes she's just like "dude- what's it all about?" http://t.co/pQygk7cmcu"
  35. Jessiebanana

    Jessiebanana Well-Known Member

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    If I was Tanith I'd be terrified to ever break up with Charlie. I feel like he and Meryl would dognap DJ...or in the very least file some sort of custody suit.
  36. Piper

    Piper Member

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  37. mollymgr

    mollymgr Well-Known Member

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    This is my favorite alliteration! That definitely needed to be trademarked.:lol:
  38. shsocu

    shsocu Active Member

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    Does anyone know if Meryl and Charlie are going to be at any of the stops for CSOI?
  39. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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  40. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    I would expect Kaetlyn Osmond to be added to some of the Canadian cities out west but the CSOI site hasn't announced any guest skaters yet. Here's the CSOI thread in GSD: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?85972-Canadian-Stars-on-Ice-2013

    ETA that Fernandez & Osmond were announced as guest stars today: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/sho...-on-Ice-2013&p=3890843&viewfull=1#post3890843
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2013