Davis and White #14 - Better Late Than Sinatra

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by literaryfreak, Sep 11, 2012.

  1. ballettmaus

    ballettmaus Well-Known Member

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    Not only then, was there ever a time when figure skating was without? Ice dance especially? They can change the judging system as much as they want, there will always be lobbying going on.
    If one looks at it realistically, when V/M win it's not without any more or less politicking than it is when D/W win.

    That said, both ice dance teams still have tremendous talent and still are the best currently and I'm thrilled that D/W got that (historic) victory. Politicking or not, I didn't expect it (or at least thought V/M would get the FD after all the comments I've read/heard and it would be by a margin that D/W win) but I think they SO deserved it!
     
  2. literaryfreak

    literaryfreak Well-Known Member

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    So happy they've made history, again, and retained their title. :)

    I like the change they made to the beginning. I do miss the old move to the first instance of the bells, with Charlie pushing Meryl back and forth, it was so striking.

    But overall, D/W came out blazing and stayed that way, despite the fact that they were not the underdogs here! I love that they pushed the power in the last part, it will be absolutely thrilling come Worlds. It's interesting that D/W and V/M nearly tied on the Interpretation/Timing Mark: 9.68 vs 9.64.
     
  3. ~tapdancer~

    ~tapdancer~ Well-Known Member

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    D/W deserved the win. Wuzrobbing for V/M? Please, that's beyond the ridiculous. And politicking? Nothing new there. Can't believe some of the comments but always have to consider the sources!

    Anyway, just enjoying my happy day!
     
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  4. Theatregirl1122

    Theatregirl1122 Well-Known Member

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    Wow! The FD was great today! I haven't been in the pbp thread because, well, of course. But who cares. I learned when Evan won the Olympics that it's much more fun to be a fan of the skater that actually wins no matter who thinks what about it. "FSU likes this program better" sure didn't get Meryl and Charlie any points last year so I don't know why anyone is surprised that it isn't getting Tessa and Scott any points now.

    But I'm glad to know the US federation has suddenly developed such outrageous politicking power. They clearly didn't have it at worlds last year. I hope this didn't use it all up on this GPF!

    At any rate, Meryl and Charlie were fabulous in both segments of the competition. The FD looks better every time out and the SD is stunning! And I'm sure that Meryl and Charlie will be working really hard until nationals to improve even more but they are definitely in a good place for this part of the season. Hopefully they'll be able to get their Polka levels and step levels up. Who knows what the scores here mean for 4CC and Worlds between V&M and D&W but I think it is pretty clear that the judges don't see the rest of the world catching up to the two of them.

    One thing I was wondering. I haven't looked at the protocols so far this year. I didn't realize that the choreographic lift at the end got a base value or GOE at all. Is that a rule change this year or have I just not noticed before?
     
  5. mollymgr

    mollymgr Well-Known Member

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  6. ambern024

    ambern024 New Member

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    my thoughts exactly! i don't see what's so amazing to people about their carmen!

    Meryl and Charlie's FD on the other hand is beautiful...and on the plus side someone under the age of 13 can watch it
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2012
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  7. Piper

    Piper Member

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    I just love them)) I'm happy that I was there and...I have no words))
    My foolish face with American flag was at the monitor, though I had no idea about it. :D
     
  8. missysays

    missysays Active Member

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    I was just thinking about this. I wonder if it's because D/W really are a great COP ice dance team and in the first head to head competition with V/M without too much up front knowledge and just pure judging by the rules that D/W numbers add up to a win usually in the first meeting between the two teams. (This happened last year as well.) By Worlds, V/M have had a chance to work on the areas that will gain them more points in a head to head competition with D/W. As well their political backing and the judges who maybe would want to give them the nod have had a chance to understand where they need to give extra points here or there to tip it in V/M's favor. With another competition added after worlds now where the two teams could potentially meet, you then see the judging and influencing reverse because D/W's backers and judges who would favor them have had time to see where they need to "work" the points to get them a leg up.

    I don't think that this is necessarily an awful thing (even though I'd prefer if D/W would win)- it's just the way of the world as it's operating now in COP ice dance and makes such a difference especially when two teams (even with different strengths) are so close to each other in the rankings (given that both teams skate well and don't make any overt mistakes).

    Last year, the point spread between D/W and V/M at GPF was 188.55 vs 183.84. At worlds last season, the point spread had reversed by worlds to 182.65 vs 178.62. By WTT, it had reversed again 183.36 vs 177.76 with D/W back on the winning side of the point differential.

    This year, the point spread between D/W and V/M at GPF is 183.39 vs 179.83. It'll be interesting to see if it will reverse again by 4CC or Worlds and if the teams do WTT again this year.

    In a case like this the only thing that the teams can do to stay ahead is continue to do their due diligence make sure they have well constructed programs that maximize technical and component points and make sure they perform at a high level when they need to.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2012
  9. Jessiebanana

    Jessiebanana Well-Known Member

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  10. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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    Yes, the choreographic lift got a definition, BV and points this season.

    As to why D&W seem to do better earlier in the year than V&M, I think there are several contributing factors:
    1. D&W don't have the health issues V&M do. I bet V&M are very careful not to overtrain.
    2. Charlie White's music cutting ability lets D&W make changes to their music and programs much faster than V&M. As soon as they want something fixed, they are 3/4 of the way there.
    3. It's got to be harder to get a new lift smooth in the transitions when team members are closer to the same size (as per V&M). It takes longer, therefore, and they are not quite as ready quite as soon.

    The above I'm fairly sure of. The following is pure speculation.
    1. V&M seem to be very vested in having a story even for an SD while D&W are perfectly happy with "Charlie & Meryl go to a party" as a whole story. I don't think Tessa & Scott settle down into a program until they have the acting stuff straight. It takes longer. In the case of this year's SD, they still haven't got a clear story line, and that program just hasn't gelled as well as Carmen. Frankly, any stories I can come up with for their current SD music cuts are just weird. What would explain suddenly breaking into a polka and looking unhappy about it? Why is such a dressed up girl with a guy all in black anyway?

    OK-he's a spy. She is caught making up to him. As torture they are forced to dance a polka. They escape and waltz again. (that's my best effort :lol:

    2. I think they don't get fired up to really work until they lose, or at least have some team finish close to them. I don't know why this should be, but it's one explanation for losing the GPF this year & last.
     
  11. zilam98

    zilam98 Well-Known Member

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    very diplomatic of you, dorispulaski. and that storyline you came up with is hilarious! :lol:
     
  12. missysays

    missysays Active Member

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    That's hilarious!

    A poster, KKonas, in the Goldenskate Forum encapsulated perfectly for me why Meryl and Charlie's SD is more of a success this year and why Tessa and Scott's is less successful.

     
  13. CassAgain

    CassAgain Active Member

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    I thought it looked before like she was the striking bell, and I like the change.

    They are so restrained in the kiss and cry--I hope they celebrate heartily when the cameras were off. They did look very emotionally spent at the end of the program today.
     
  14. semogal

    semogal Well-Known Member

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    I have been thinking about their restraint in the K&C.
    1. They have learned that how THEY feel about a performance does not always translate into how the JUDGES feel, so they have become wary.
    2. Were they aware of what score they needed? They didn't smile until the 1st place flashed up with the scores.
    3. Remember the "fair play" video they made? I think win or lose they try to be good sports and jumping up and down when they win is just not their style.
     
  15. semogal

    semogal Well-Known Member

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    And on another note, Doris you made me choke on my coffee with this:
    OK-he's a spy. She is caught making up to him. As torture they are forced to dance a polka. They escape and waltz again.

    You nailed it!!!:rofl:
     
  16. mollymgr

    mollymgr Well-Known Member

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    Since the Disson show is next Saturday, is there a chance we might see a new exhibition program? :shuffle:
     
  17. Jessiebanana

    Jessiebanana Well-Known Member

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    I like the change to the bell portion too, as well as the start in the beginning. They always start their dances far apart, so it's a nice change and it feels more personal.

    LOL
     
  18. Jessiebanana

    Jessiebanana Well-Known Member

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    They are such class acts it makes me wonder how people say such bad things about them. Same with Weaver and Poje. They get made fun of all the time, yet they seem like such sweet people.
     
  19. mollymgr

    mollymgr Well-Known Member

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    It is quite simple. Those who like to say bad things typically don't give a $hit about fair play :lol:
     
  20. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    I think it's more a case that when you are good enough to scare the supporters of other skaters, they go on the attack. (The supporters do, I mean, not the skaters.) It's as though they think the judges at the next big competition will take off points from the skaters who get insulted most on the internet.
     
  21. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    I think Kaitlyn as developed a sense of class, but she certainly didn't have it early in her career.
     
  22. IoanaC

    IoanaC Active Member

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    I respect your opinions, Doris, and you don't usually deliver low blows, but this really feels like one. There are many reasons for V/M's loss, but lack of work ethic is certainly not among them. Frankly, I'm surprised you'd think that.
     
  23. shsocu

    shsocu Active Member

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    Meryl and Charlie seem to be like making history in Russia: 1st Ice Dance World Champs, 1st to win 4 consecutive GPF titles...hopefully another in 2014! :)
     
  24. chipso1

    chipso1 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think Doris, or anyone for that matter, is doubting V/M's work ethic. Every team at the GPF has to have exceptional work ethic, otherwise they wouldn't be there. I took her comment to mean that GPF "losses" always seem to get V/M even more fired up for the rest of the season (see: 2009 and 2011). They take the feedback they receive at the GPF and usually improve for the 2nd half of the season.
     
  25. mollymgr

    mollymgr Well-Known Member

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    Wouldn't that be something? :cool:
     
  26. literaryfreak

    literaryfreak Well-Known Member

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    I keep forgetting D/W have broken not only one, but two records here:

    1. First ice dance team in history to win the GPF 4 times.
    2. First skater(s) in any discipline in history to win the GPF 4 times consecutively.

    Russia holds good things for them. Well, outside of Cup of Russia. :lol:
     
  27. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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    I'm not claiming they have a lack of work ethic; in fact, I said, that I didn't know why.

    it's more that they gain an intensity/adrenalin type thing when someone beats them or scores close to them, like a horse race where the leading horse can be loping along and speeds up when another horse comes close.
     
  28. ballettmaus

    ballettmaus Well-Known Member

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    If that was the case though wouldn't it mean that V/M don't take D/W as competition, even though they train together, until they were beaten by them? Shouldn't they know already from the training that D/W are competition and shouldn't V/M and D/W push each other since they have their competition in training each day?
     
  29. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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    I think it's like when your little sister beats you at chess. You think it's a fluke. You had the stomach flu. You were distracted by family stuff. Then she does it twice :)

    AFAIR, neither team spends a lot of time watching the other train; they are far too focussed on themselves. They are just aware the competition is working hard.

    Reality strikes when you see the scores/lose. Enough is enough. Then you decide the slow spin won't do and the choreo lift needs changing. That sort of thing.
     
  30. Jiazumi

    Jiazumi Active Member

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    Does anyone here have the medal ceremony?