Davis and White #14 - Better Late Than Sinatra

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by literaryfreak, Sep 11, 2012.

  1. jobelle

    jobelle Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2005
    Messages:
    460
    I'm very interested to see Tessa and Scott's Carmen mostly because the discussion above about refinement, control, and "skating to the edge of the precipice" (I love that SusanM!).
    We know that Tessa and Scott will keep their refinement and control but if they can bring that feeling of passion, power, and "it" (that's for you mia_joy) then it could be truly spectacular!

    However, we've also seen Meryl and Charlie improve immensely in their refinement and each season their unison and connection with each other improves. I still think that either team could win on any day and that (like last year) much of the deciding factor will be who can get their levels. I would have said who has the best skate on the day but as we saw at Worlds that part may not even matter as much if the levels aren't there.
     
  2. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2011
    Messages:
    1,416
    I agree about classic in the sense that they have been more dancers and less drama than Meryl and Charlie (but drama, while not so much present in the early ice dancing, was very present later in the 80s, 90s and in the beginning of 2000s), although I can't say that there hasn't been any storytelling. As for traditional - their 'Pink Floyd' FD was not so traditional. And the argument that this more modern style is no good for Tessa and Scott because it was not their best season doesn't work, as the real reason for that was not the style, but rather Tessa's shin problems and the shortness of their season.

    I agree that Meryl and Charlie are one of a kind in some ways, but I still can't agree that there have been many ice dancers like Tessa and Scott. One reason why it's not even possible are the totally different requirements in the old system, and the still quite different requirements in the first seasons with this system. Sure, there have been refined and elegant teams among older ice dancers, but most of them had a different style than Tessa and Scott anyway. And there have also been dramatic and expressive teams that were a bit similar to Meryl and Charlie in a way. Lastly, there are many fans who feel that Tessa and Scott are "one of a kind", despite having seen a lot of other older temas. Many fans of both teams feel that way - that their favourites are completely unique, while there are also those like me who see both special and rare qualities, as well as similarities.

    Obviously, for Tessa and Scott fans they have both the "IT" factor (it has been talked about quite often), and on ice personality in spades :D. As for "inner fire", in some cases it may be less apparent and more "inner" than with Meryl and Charlie, but I definitely think that it's there :).

    I agree about letting go - that's what I also like in skaters (and not just skaters), but Tessa and Scott are an exception for me, as they manage to combine their control and perfection with an apparent joy of skating and their own kind of expressiveness.


    Sorry, couldn't desist :shuffle:. I guess, it was inevitable after I started this.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2012
  3. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2011
    Messages:
    1,416
    I think that most Meryl and Charlie fans won't like what they will do anyway. Especially because they (to be exact, Tessa) have said that they are going to tell the story more through body movement/dance than through facial expressions (although Scott has quite much of it anyway :D, while Tessa usually has less of it), and many tend to see passion more in facial expressions than in body movement. Also, I think their passion is going to be more of the partially hidden, simmering just under the surfice kind (as it has already been), than the totally outward kind, which, again, is usually noticed by more people.

    I agree absolutely.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2012
  4. iNap

    iNap Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2012
    Messages:
    184
    Look like you are V-M fan who want to convert D-W fan to your team. Why waste time? Trying in polite ways do no good :D Maybe tread title change confuse you :rofl:
     
  5. circuscandy

    circuscandy New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2012
    Messages:
    567
    Absolutely. This is exactly it. And exactly the reason why wins are a toss-up, depending almost solely on snagging levels, even when one of the teams has a "weaker" piece.

    For me, a huge part of why I love Meryl and Charlie over Tessa and Scott is that I tend to like raw power laced with a bit of refinement. I like speed, I like big, sweeping movements. I like to sit on the edge of my seat. (I also like them better just aesthetically. I think they are a fabulous couple to look at. There's a great contrast between them. Meryl all porcelain with her dark hair, and Charlie's wild, blond curls.)

    Scott's attitude really made it almost impossible for me to get real joy while watching them last season. And while on ice, he often comes off as a little comical to me. Like he's trying too hard. With Tessa I believe it. I think the WTT debacle really shined a light on some of my issues. I had so much secondhand embarrassment going on... Yikes.

    But despite my critiques, it is still like splitting hairs and I do fully understand why people love one team over the other. I will NEVER say that one team is worse than the other. I feel they are utterly matched for talent. It just comes down to taste.
     
  6. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2011
    Messages:
    1,416
    No, that was not my intention. I know that it's useless :lol:. It started when, in response to some post, I told when/how I came to like Tessa/Scott and Meryl/Charlie, and explained why I like Tessa and Scott a bit more. Then people responded to that with their opinions and feelings about both teams, and I, in turn, felt a need to respond to that (of course) :). That's all.
     
  7. zilam98

    zilam98 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2008
    Messages:
    1,147
    oh pani, why even bother reversing your name? ;)
     
    alilou and (deleted member) like this.
  8. missysays

    missysays Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2007
    Messages:
    646
    Cute article about skaters and memories of their first day at school...

    http://web.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120911&content_id=38247374&vkey=ice_news

    Poor Charlie!!:lol:
     
  9. iNap

    iNap Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2012
    Messages:
    184
    V-M toss coin every year and made program for latin or romance. Coin have only two sides ;)
     
  10. Jessiebanana

    Jessiebanana Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2012
    Messages:
    1,477
    You took the words out of my mouth! This is going to be perfect for them.
     
  11. Jessiebanana

    Jessiebanana Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2012
    Messages:
    1,477
    I will always like Virtue and Moir's skating. I'm no longer a fan of both teams simply because of Scott's off ice behavior. Being a fan for me implies a personal connection, I can't have a positive personal connection with a skating team who I can't like. Scott's not the devil or anything, bad sportsmanship is hardly the end all be all, but I love how well rounded and nice Davis and White seem to be. It makes it easy, also I tended to push for them being the underdog and it didn't help that I hated V/M program last year...not so much the music, but the actual choreography...or lack thereof. It was too basic for their talent.

    As for Carmen...it is what it is. Maybe their refinement will bring a new spin. It's typically done a bit OTT except maybe with Michelle Kwan. I think most of us thought after last year they'd step it up to make up for it and that's why everyone is so disappointed with Carmen.

    Either way at the end of the day I APPRECIATE the hell out of both teams. People speak of the great ice dancers of the past, but tbh as an actual on the floor dancer I couldn't tolerate the lack of athleticism and line in old school ice dancers. It seemed to me to be a lot of questionable movements and dramatic costumes that all sort of managed to look the same after a while. I thank both of these teams and the transitioning teams that lead up to these two.
     
  12. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2011
    Messages:
    1,416
    You're much more of a pot stirer here than me or anyone else (which is not anything new, of course). I haven't read comments like your mock one in a long time here. But, fine, if you want - I must say that so far there has been only one latina, and much more romance, if we are talking about FDs. And the romance has been of different kinds. Plus, 'Pink Floyd' and 'Funny Face' wasn't even all romance - only the more extreme Meryl/Charlie ubers could ignore that. Not to mention the different types of movement that they have used in their dances. Besides, haven't most Meryl and Charlie's FDs also been romance of this or that sort? But it's not like I have ever blamed them for that, as I don't see that as a flaw.

    I think I'll stop now even if you don't want to - otherwise we are going to pollute this thread so that it will become an unpleasant place for it's rightful inhabitants. And that I don't wish.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2012
  13. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2011
    Messages:
    1,416
    I guess, to be a real fan I too have to like or at least be intrigued by the personality. Still, some flaws/bad traits as a person can't stop me from liking what that person does on ice/stage.

    I can't agree at all. 'Funny Face' was my least favorite of Tessa and Scott's FDs, although I still liked it, but that was because of the overall style, not because of choreography. I think the choreography was fine for the style, and quite detailed. Although it became less detailed when in the middle of the season they took a few bits out in order to add more transitions.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2012
  14. iNap

    iNap Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2012
    Messages:
    184
    So you are V-M ultra uber. You came here to stir pot. I just show you where your pot is so you can go stir over there :lol: It is in safe V-M tread. You are not going to change D-W fan because we like them for different reason.


    I hope Marina let Charlie keep his hair this season. Hope we here full announcement soon from icenetwork. I have feeling Meryl will be so greate as Esmeralda. She have such unique look will be perfect for this role.
     
  15. Jessiebanana

    Jessiebanana Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2012
    Messages:
    1,477
    It is isn't just the nice. It's the goofy, the open awkwardness, and for a nerd like me I love that Meryl is so bright and passionate about her education. Like I said...it doesn't stop me from liking V/M skating. I will always like their skating. They are very talented and I wish they went the Pink Floyd root more. They're good at modern and that's an almost unexplored territory in ice dance.

    You don't have to agree with me, but I think a lot of V/M fans hated the choreography. Obviously they got the levels in the requirements, but the elements in between and the the difficulty in timing to the music wasn't anywhere near their past programs or DF. It was the type of choreography you might expect for a new team. They could have made FF less cutesy, there's quite a bit more to FF than that, but they didn't and I'll never know why. It was obviously very important to Tessa.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2012
    shan and (deleted member) like this.
  16. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,499
    Actually, I was saying Meryl & Charlie skate to the edge of the precipice - taking everything to the max. Sometime their edges get so deep, I'm afraid they will fall over. Tessa & Scott skate in a very contained style and don't skate with that same amplitude.

    That's what I find so impressive about D-W. It sometimes looks like raw power, but they are totally in control.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2012
  17. Theatregirl1122

    Theatregirl1122 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2006
    Messages:
    18,653

    It's best to just ignore trolls no matter how many personas they may have.
     
  18. mollymgr

    mollymgr Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2010
    Messages:
    1,278
    Wow, we have our own pet troll now. I don't know whether to laugh or cry :lol:
     
    shan and (deleted member) like this.
  19. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2011
    Messages:
    1,416
    No, I am not a Virtue/Moir uber, but I like them a lot. I think I am not anyone's uber, and Stephane Lambiel is the only skater whose true fan I am :). The pot stirring from me was unintentional - I didn't even come here for that. I came to read about Meryl and Charlie and their dances/music. As I already wrote, I don't hope to change Davis/White fans, as it's useless, just as it would be useless to try and change Virtue/Moir fans.
     
  20. jobelle

    jobelle Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2005
    Messages:
    460
    I know. I meant that if Tessa and Scott brought the same quality it would really be incredible when combined with what they already do well.
     
  21. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2011
    Messages:
    1,416
    Many fans didn't like the music and the style, but I don't remember many posts (if any) about disliking the choreography. I can't agree about difficulty - there was a lot of nuance, tempo changes, and so on. Maybe not liking the music stopped people from noticing it. Also - one of Tessa and Scott's main qualities is indeed that often they make the difficult seem easy, while, when Meryl and Charlie are skating, you see how difficult it is, and think: ''Wow! How difficult! And how easily they did that!" :D. I am not saying that one or other style of skating is better - to each their own. I don't agree about "new team'' - that was much too difficult and refined for a new team. About "cutesy" - I agree that a part of it was cutesy, but definitely not all of it (imho).

    It's not like Tessa and Scott's edges are any less deeper. As for amplitude - well, I haven't seen any of them skate live, but from those who have seen both teams live I've heard that Tessa/Scott don't skate with a lesser amplitude than Meryl and Charlie. Apparently it only looks that way on TV (and not to everyone ;)). Recently I read a comment from someone stating that the two teams who really skate "big" are Virtue/Moir and Ilinykh/Katsalapov - but that was from a Tessa/Scott fan, so no wonder.
     
  22. comickiwi

    comickiwi New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2012
    Messages:
    34
    You're right! Meryl and Charlie have an abandon and joy that's just exhilarating to watch while others might skate to perfection but is missing the "fire" - well, to me, anyway (doesn't apply to everyone, V/M fans don't scold me please). I'm glad that people love D/W for this. I'm in good company :)
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2012
  23. mollymgr

    mollymgr Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2010
    Messages:
    1,278
  24. shan

    shan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2003
    Messages:
    17,004
    Which Andrew, Speroff or Gonzales? It sounds like they both had issues.

    Jeremy Abbott's picture is sooo cute!!

    And I have to agree, poor Charlie falling asleep on the bus.
     
    Maofan7 and (deleted member) like this.
  25. mollymgr

    mollymgr Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2010
    Messages:
    1,278
    SperoffÂ…poor kid was probably heartbroken about his brand new shoes. Gonzales had a bad case of separation anxiety :lol:
     
  26. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Messages:
    1,592
    Yeah, I've gotta imagine that's rather scary. Hopefully he can laugh about it now (I chuckled a little, I admit).

    I don't remember my first day of school, however.

    Seriously.
     
  27. Jessiebanana

    Jessiebanana Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2012
    Messages:
    1,477
    Like I said, your opinion is your opinion. You're free to have it.
     
  28. Theatregirl1122

    Theatregirl1122 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2006
    Messages:
    18,653
    I definitely don't remember my first day of school. Heck, I don't remember my first day of college.
     
  29. circuscandy

    circuscandy New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2012
    Messages:
    567
    I was intimidated by people whose feet could actually touch the floor of the bus.

    And an older girl made a face at my (rather babyish) backpack. Traumatized.

    I have no memories of the actual school day, however. Must have been eventful.
     
  30. Piper

    Piper Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2012
    Messages:
    148
    I've had a break in watching figure skating from 2002 to 2007, but I feel like I really started watching it in 2009-2010 season.
    It started when I went to Rostelecom Cup 2009...and there were Meryl and Charlie spinning it their incredible twizzles right in front of me. Since then, I love them.
    I've also always admired Tessa and Scott and I was really happy for them in Vancouver - their FD was brilliant. The only problem with them for me was that they were...I don't know, too good to be true, like romantic movie characters. Meryl and Charlie were...more real, sort of.
    In 2010-2011 I was surrounded by V\M fans who didn't even try to hide their dislike for Meryl and Charlie and reminded all the time how awful they are, blah blah blah.
    It was not easy to get used to it - it didn't lessen my admiration for V/M though. But Scott's demeanour after GPF 2011 did.
    I understand that if you really like the skater, his off-ice behaviour shouldn't bother you much...but it doesn't work for me. One of the things I love about D/W is how they handle the situation when they lose.