Davis and White #14 - Better Late Than Sinatra

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by literaryfreak, Sep 11, 2012.

  1. iNap

    iNap New Member

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    they say all event D-W win do not matter. then why they waste time to politik for events that not matter :confused:
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  2. shan

    shan Well-Known Member

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    Exactly!
  3. Jessiebanana

    Jessiebanana Well-Known Member

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    Fantastic! I can't wait for it to pop up on YT so I can see the victory.

    Also, while I'm happy they won both the FD and the SD, I don't think they had to in order to validate their win. It's such a double standard. M/C have beaten V/M in the FD many times before, when they were always coming in second, because their CDs and/or ODs were weaker, but no one ever said anything...and they shouldn't. It's an overall win. Losing one dance, falls, getting caught in lifts, etc is all a part of competing. It's about who puts out a better performance.
  4. Jessiebanana

    Jessiebanana Well-Known Member

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    I don't think there is enough politicking in the World to overtake the Chanada thing going on. Are these people serious? V/M are the darlings of ice dancing (a lot of the attention and praise deserved). The idea that there is a conspiracy against them is ridiculous and frankly insulting after what happened last Worlds.
  5. iNap

    iNap New Member

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    Charlie go to school for politiks science. Meryl do all translation for this team to do this politiks. I have strong feeling there will be egyptian judege at W-Ch :D
  6. semogal

    semogal Well-Known Member

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    So thrilled for Meryl and Charlie. Four time GPF champs, 1st US Ice Dance World Champs. They will go down in history as THE US dance team. I am so glad that I get to witness it all!!!

    (or I will witness it all when a video finally shows up of today's FD)
  7. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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    If there is any politics, it might be that all the pro D&W judges are at this event (which indeed) doesn't matter, and all the pro V&M judges are assigned to Worlds. While we're doing crazy conspiracy theories :rolleyes: :sarcasm:


    It sure wasn't politicking in the tech panel; there was a Canadian on it, and no American or French member. (Canadian, British & Polish, AFAIR).

    Kudos to Igor for getting C&L up to the level where they got the only Level 4 step from a senior I've seen this season :cheer:
  8. Jessiebanana

    Jessiebanana Well-Known Member

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    This divorce is ruining Canton. I want Igor back.
  9. Whitneyskates

    Whitneyskates New Member

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    I can't believe people are saying that they have never seen such politicking before. Were they not around when F-P/M and L/A were world champions?

    Let them hate. D/W are 4 time GPF champions and will no doubt be remembered as the greatest American ice dance team of all time!
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  10. lmarie086

    lmarie086 Well-Known Member

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    This! I'm so happy for them, and I can't wait to see the FD once it's online. But I hope they continue to grow throughout the rest of the season. Giselle and ND are both fine dances, but I still expect more from them. And that's just because that's how good they are.

    I hope they work with Alex Wong again in the second half of the season, I really think that he can help bring them to a new level.
  11. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    I can believe the USA is pushing D/W, just like the Canadians push V/M, Russians were trying to push I/K , etc, etc. I don't believe, though that means they didn't deserve to win.

    One of the games I like to play is to study the PCS marks in the protocols to see if I can pick out the homer judges for each of the top skaters. Looking at the PCS marks on the GPF free dance protocol, judges #5 and #6 both stand out as clearly preferring D/W, but it looks like D/W won the PCS battle 7 judges to 2 for V-M. Here are the number of components D-W won over V/M from each judge, omitting components were both teams got the same mark:
    #1 3-2, #2 1-2. #3 2-1. #4 2-1, #5 5-0, #6 5-0, #7 2-1, #8 4-0 #9 1-3

    If you average the 9 marks for each component, D/W won every component. So, I think this was, in the eyes of the panel, a clear win for Davis/White.
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2012
  12. shan

    shan Well-Known Member

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    Well apparently when M/C win it's politics, but if V/M win, everything is as it should be. :rolleyes:

    No matter, I thought M/C did a beautiful job today! :)
  13. Whitneyskates

    Whitneyskates New Member

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    Well of course. Copping feels at center ice and sticking your crotch in your partner's face is innovative and artistic, don'tcha know?

    I've seen videos of all the FD's, just waiting for D/W.
  14. semogal

    semogal Well-Known Member

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    Charlie and Meryl are the Rodney Dangerfields of Ice Dance.
  15. Jessiebanana

    Jessiebanana Well-Known Member

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  16. lmarie086

    lmarie086 Well-Known Member

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=688Lpm8tp3c

    Great performance today! Unfortunately, I am going to nitpick :lol: (but only because the judges will do the same more and more as the season goes)

    -I wish they faced each other more in the step sequences- they always start them in the same hold. Which is why I loved when they had the entrance from the Tango to the diagonal initially. Also, I want them to create more pictures in their movements in the step sequences- really hold out each move, make it all match well. One thing I've noticed is it sometimes seems like Meryl jumps out away from Charlie at times, so maybe just stay closer together?

    -Also on the diagonal SS, I want more gypsy flavor! It was improved here (Meryl was working it) but I'd like to see it incorporated more into the choreo. Could they work with a gypsy dancer?

    -Some spots of the choreo are a little open, but it's still improved. I just expect a lot of them lol. Keep working with Alex Wong!!

    -I see a lot of arm movement that isn't purposeful. I'd like them to concentrate on that too.

    I loved the new starting positions, I think it did so much more for the story! And I love that we've seen changes to this program each time they've competed this season. I'm happy to see this because last year while I really enjoyed DF, it peaked too soon. I don't think ND is anywhere near perfection. And I like that.
  17. mia joy

    mia joy New Member

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    I just wonder how it is possible that every season Meryl and Charlie win the GPF, but then Tessa and Scott's scores magically go up in the second part of the season to ensure their win at Worlds (even if they lose WTT a month later). I would be ok with it if I saw Tessa and Scott clearly beating Meryl and Charlie with their Worlds performances, but I usually don't. I truly believe D/W should've won last year and in 2010. How's that for politicking?

    This. I really think saying such things does great dishonour to the teams who really suffered from negative politicking in the past, e.g. the only team I've ever loved as much as I do Meryl and Charlie, Drobiazko/Vanagas.

    Nevertheless, I'm thrilled for Meryl and Charlie to create ice dance history like that. Also, having won 3 GPF titles and knowing how much Tessa and Scott must want to win it for once, it might have been difficult for them to have the motivation needed to do their best. They did. They always do and that's why I love them.
  18. literaryfreak

    literaryfreak Well-Known Member

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    Did you get this by reading down the column? The judges are in a random order for each skater, so you can't do this breakdown using that method.
  19. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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    GS coverage of the SD press conference. An excerpt:

    http://www.goldenskate.com/2012/12/sr-sd/

  20. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    FD article: http://web.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20121208&content_id=40581330&vkey=ice_news

    From the Team USA Saturday recap: http://skatingmagazineblog.com/2012/12/08/team-usa-earns-five-medals-in-sochi/
  21. ballettmaus

    ballettmaus Well-Known Member

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    Not only then, was there ever a time when figure skating was without? Ice dance especially? They can change the judging system as much as they want, there will always be lobbying going on.
    If one looks at it realistically, when V/M win it's not without any more or less politicking than it is when D/W win.

    That said, both ice dance teams still have tremendous talent and still are the best currently and I'm thrilled that D/W got that (historic) victory. Politicking or not, I didn't expect it (or at least thought V/M would get the FD after all the comments I've read/heard and it would be by a margin that D/W win) but I think they SO deserved it!
  22. literaryfreak

    literaryfreak Well-Known Member

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    So happy they've made history, again, and retained their title. :)

    I like the change they made to the beginning. I do miss the old move to the first instance of the bells, with Charlie pushing Meryl back and forth, it was so striking.

    But overall, D/W came out blazing and stayed that way, despite the fact that they were not the underdogs here! I love that they pushed the power in the last part, it will be absolutely thrilling come Worlds. It's interesting that D/W and V/M nearly tied on the Interpretation/Timing Mark: 9.68 vs 9.64.
  23. ~tapdancer~

    ~tapdancer~ Well-Known Member

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    D/W deserved the win. Wuzrobbing for V/M? Please, that's beyond the ridiculous. And politicking? Nothing new there. Can't believe some of the comments but always have to consider the sources!

    Anyway, just enjoying my happy day!
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  24. Theatregirl1122

    Theatregirl1122 Well-Known Member

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    Wow! The FD was great today! I haven't been in the pbp thread because, well, of course. But who cares. I learned when Evan won the Olympics that it's much more fun to be a fan of the skater that actually wins no matter who thinks what about it. "FSU likes this program better" sure didn't get Meryl and Charlie any points last year so I don't know why anyone is surprised that it isn't getting Tessa and Scott any points now.

    But I'm glad to know the US federation has suddenly developed such outrageous politicking power. They clearly didn't have it at worlds last year. I hope this didn't use it all up on this GPF!

    At any rate, Meryl and Charlie were fabulous in both segments of the competition. The FD looks better every time out and the SD is stunning! And I'm sure that Meryl and Charlie will be working really hard until nationals to improve even more but they are definitely in a good place for this part of the season. Hopefully they'll be able to get their Polka levels and step levels up. Who knows what the scores here mean for 4CC and Worlds between V&M and D&W but I think it is pretty clear that the judges don't see the rest of the world catching up to the two of them.

    One thing I was wondering. I haven't looked at the protocols so far this year. I didn't realize that the choreographic lift at the end got a base value or GOE at all. Is that a rule change this year or have I just not noticed before?
  25. mollymgr

    mollymgr Well-Known Member

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  26. ambern024

    ambern024 New Member

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    my thoughts exactly! i don't see what's so amazing to people about their carmen!

    Meryl and Charlie's FD on the other hand is beautiful...and on the plus side someone under the age of 13 can watch it
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2012
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  27. Piper

    Piper Member

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    I just love them)) I'm happy that I was there and...I have no words))
    My foolish face with American flag was at the monitor, though I had no idea about it. :D
  28. missysays

    missysays New Member

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    I was just thinking about this. I wonder if it's because D/W really are a great COP ice dance team and in the first head to head competition with V/M without too much up front knowledge and just pure judging by the rules that D/W numbers add up to a win usually in the first meeting between the two teams. (This happened last year as well.) By Worlds, V/M have had a chance to work on the areas that will gain them more points in a head to head competition with D/W. As well their political backing and the judges who maybe would want to give them the nod have had a chance to understand where they need to give extra points here or there to tip it in V/M's favor. With another competition added after worlds now where the two teams could potentially meet, you then see the judging and influencing reverse because D/W's backers and judges who would favor them have had time to see where they need to "work" the points to get them a leg up.

    I don't think that this is necessarily an awful thing (even though I'd prefer if D/W would win)- it's just the way of the world as it's operating now in COP ice dance and makes such a difference especially when two teams (even with different strengths) are so close to each other in the rankings (given that both teams skate well and don't make any overt mistakes).

    Last year, the point spread between D/W and V/M at GPF was 188.55 vs 183.84. At worlds last season, the point spread had reversed by worlds to 182.65 vs 178.62. By WTT, it had reversed again 183.36 vs 177.76 with D/W back on the winning side of the point differential.

    This year, the point spread between D/W and V/M at GPF is 183.39 vs 179.83. It'll be interesting to see if it will reverse again by 4CC or Worlds and if the teams do WTT again this year.

    In a case like this the only thing that the teams can do to stay ahead is continue to do their due diligence make sure they have well constructed programs that maximize technical and component points and make sure they perform at a high level when they need to.
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2012
  29. Jessiebanana

    Jessiebanana Well-Known Member

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  30. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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    Yes, the choreographic lift got a definition, BV and points this season.

    As to why D&W seem to do better earlier in the year than V&M, I think there are several contributing factors:
    1. D&W don't have the health issues V&M do. I bet V&M are very careful not to overtrain.
    2. Charlie White's music cutting ability lets D&W make changes to their music and programs much faster than V&M. As soon as they want something fixed, they are 3/4 of the way there.
    3. It's got to be harder to get a new lift smooth in the transitions when team members are closer to the same size (as per V&M). It takes longer, therefore, and they are not quite as ready quite as soon.

    The above I'm fairly sure of. The following is pure speculation.
    1. V&M seem to be very vested in having a story even for an SD while D&W are perfectly happy with "Charlie & Meryl go to a party" as a whole story. I don't think Tessa & Scott settle down into a program until they have the acting stuff straight. It takes longer. In the case of this year's SD, they still haven't got a clear story line, and that program just hasn't gelled as well as Carmen. Frankly, any stories I can come up with for their current SD music cuts are just weird. What would explain suddenly breaking into a polka and looking unhappy about it? Why is such a dressed up girl with a guy all in black anyway?

    OK-he's a spy. She is caught making up to him. As torture they are forced to dance a polka. They escape and waltz again. (that's my best effort :lol:

    2. I think they don't get fired up to really work until they lose, or at least have some team finish close to them. I don't know why this should be, but it's one explanation for losing the GPF this year & last.
  31. zilam98

    zilam98 New Member

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    very diplomatic of you, dorispulaski. and that storyline you came up with is hilarious! :lol:
  32. missysays

    missysays New Member

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    That's hilarious!

    A poster, KKonas, in the Goldenskate Forum encapsulated perfectly for me why Meryl and Charlie's SD is more of a success this year and why Tessa and Scott's is less successful.

  33. CassAgain

    CassAgain Active Member

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    I thought it looked before like she was the striking bell, and I like the change.

    They are so restrained in the kiss and cry--I hope they celebrate heartily when the cameras were off. They did look very emotionally spent at the end of the program today.
  34. semogal

    semogal Well-Known Member

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    I have been thinking about their restraint in the K&C.
    1. They have learned that how THEY feel about a performance does not always translate into how the JUDGES feel, so they have become wary.
    2. Were they aware of what score they needed? They didn't smile until the 1st place flashed up with the scores.
    3. Remember the "fair play" video they made? I think win or lose they try to be good sports and jumping up and down when they win is just not their style.
  35. semogal

    semogal Well-Known Member

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    And on another note, Doris you made me choke on my coffee with this:
    OK-he's a spy. She is caught making up to him. As torture they are forced to dance a polka. They escape and waltz again.

    You nailed it!!!:rofl:
  36. mollymgr

    mollymgr Well-Known Member

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    Since the Disson show is next Saturday, is there a chance we might see a new exhibition program? :shuffle:
  37. Jessiebanana

    Jessiebanana Well-Known Member

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    I like the change to the bell portion too, as well as the start in the beginning. They always start their dances far apart, so it's a nice change and it feels more personal.

    LOL
  38. Jessiebanana

    Jessiebanana Well-Known Member

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    They are such class acts it makes me wonder how people say such bad things about them. Same with Weaver and Poje. They get made fun of all the time, yet they seem like such sweet people.
  39. mollymgr

    mollymgr Well-Known Member

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    It is quite simple. Those who like to say bad things typically don't give a $hit about fair play :lol:
  40. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    I think it's more a case that when you are good enough to scare the supporters of other skaters, they go on the attack. (The supporters do, I mean, not the skaters.) It's as though they think the judges at the next big competition will take off points from the skaters who get insulted most on the internet.