Davis and White #14 - Better Late Than Sinatra

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by literaryfreak, Sep 11, 2012.

  1. Piper

    Piper Member

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    Unfortunately, there is something about that phrase.
    For me, Meryl and Charlie have always had their own special chemistry which was more from inside than outside - and I love them for this. Now, they're trying too hard to make it more "evident" - I'm not sure they need it so much.
     
  2. TanithandBenFan

    TanithandBenFan U.S. Ice Dance Junkie

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    I think it's all about setting the mood of the program and maintaining the character. This year's free dance calls for a very strong emotional connection between the two of them, and I think they've just become more comfortable projecting this emotion than they have in past years. In the short dance, they display the light and fun connection as its appropriate. I like the added intensity they've brought to their free dance this year.
     
  3. suki

    suki New Member

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    "What does everyone think about this? I'm a fan of dance but certainly not an expert to be judging nuances like this. Is it just bragging by fans or is it really something D/W need to be concerned about?[/QUOTE]

    I have followed skating for many years, and have been an "uber" fan of many skaters over that time (Peggy Fleming, Michelle Kwan, Klimova & Ponomerenko, G&G, M&D, to name a few). But some of the V/M ubers who post are :scream: It's too bad because I like to read what's going on in all the top skaters' camps, and the knowedgeable comments of some of the posters. But, you have to wade through the nastiness spewed against the other top ice dancing teams by the minority lunatic fringe to find them.
     
  4. Piper

    Piper Member

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    They also needed emotional connection in Samson and Delilah, and Phantom, and that was more than enough, IMHO. Here it's too dramatic. And if Meryl fits perfectly, like she was born for this character, Charlie definitely needs to work more.
     
  5. circuscandy

    circuscandy New Member

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    It's just the usual nastiness from some of the V/M ubers. The sort of people who spend time disliking every D/W video on YouTube and will laugh at anything they do no matter how the judges receive it. I don't know how you can enjoy skating if you loathe the other team so much that you see nothing valuable about their existence. Why would they want V/M to coast to easy victories without any triumphant victories over someone they equal? That's no fun. It just makes the field look weak.

    D/W's FD is very ambitious and has a lot of new movements and holds and they were very focused on sinking into the character, probably moreso than on their technical elements. Those will easily be brought up as they settle into this program more. It's not quite to the point of muscle memory yet, I'd guess, so there's still a lot of thinking while they perform it. Same goes for every other team at the start of the season. Just think about how the tango seemed at the start of the season. I had some nightmares at the time, but now it's one of their programs that impresses me the most. Their showing at Worlds was magnificent. So complex and sharp!

    I enjoy this rivalry so much and I am so happy it exists because it's doing so much for ice dance. How often do we see the Olympic champs and runners up staying neck-in-neck for the next cycle, with so much competitive fire in their bellies that you trust them to keep going and doing better and more challenging work? As a gym fan, I'd love to see that from AA champions and top AAers again!

    From what I have seen of Carmen, it looks like it's definitely going to be set apart from the other Carmens that have existed. They walked the talk with that. Some of the choreography does make me wince (there's a lot of, uh, crotch... but it may not seem like that once it's all together and Tessa's in costume), but it's definitely new and innovative for them. They have their style and D/W have theirs and I appreciate both, even though I favor D/W aesthetically.

    V/M and D/W seem like they're good friends, so I'm sure they'd probably not really feel comfortable with fans going off and slamming the other team. I have my issues with Scott's professionalism, but it'll be a sad day when these two teams retire.
     
  6. browning

    browning New Member

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    First off I love D/W SD this year, i am not so sure about the FD, it has potential but I'll have to wait and see. The clips I saw of V/M FD looks great and a departure for them, I am looking forward to seeing it this weekend to make a more informed decision. I enjoy D/W, and would consider myself a fan of theirs, but will admit i am a bigger fan of V/M, some might call me a V/M uber. That being said i have seen nasty remarks by v/m fan against D/W, but i have seen the same from D/W fans about V/M. I do not like it from either group of fans but reading some of the posts here there is a suggestion is that is one sided, and that is not the case. In that way i disagree with what you said, because it is really not that more common for fans of V/M to be nasty as you suggested in your post, I agree there are some nasty ones but that can be said for any group of fans of particular skater(s).

    I do totally agree it will be a sad day for ice dance when either team retires and i will miss both teams when that day happens.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2012
  7. DFJ

    DFJ Well-Known Member

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    I'm a V/M fan but I hope these teams stay on the ice for a long time -- they are both fabulous.
     
  8. circuscandy

    circuscandy New Member

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    Of course there are people from both sides that attack both teams, but fans of one team or person can gain a reputation that other fans do not, due to different patterns of behavior. 'Usual' has the meaning of 'the same people doing the same thing that they always do', not 'every single V/M uber is this way'. I know plenty of sweet V/M fans and plenty of people who are fans of both (like I am). The hate may be a vocal minority, but it is a vocal minority.

    I can venture into other uber threads out there and get great information, but I stay far away from V/M threads despite being a fan of their skating. It's kind of a shame for me!
     
  9. Whitneyskates

    Whitneyskates Well-Known Member

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    It seems to me that V/M fans seem to be a bit more....vocal?...than the average ubers. Most are fine but there are a few who are very aggressive in their negativity against other teams. D/W's new programs generated more conversation in the V/M thread than it did here,and it was the same few people who took turns being insulting about it. I've read this form for a few months and some of the V/M ubers always talk about negativity directed towards V/M but I have yet to see the negativity in this thread that they talk about. It seems any negative criticism about V/M is taken as an insult, apparently it just isn't possible to not like one of their programs.

    V/M definitely inspire some hardcore devotion. Has anyone aver seen fanforum? They have almost 100 threads dedicated to them, not that that's a bad thing, but they once had a 5 page discussion on who Scott was pointing at during an exhibition finale.

    I respect V/M, but I'm not a fan. They're extremely talented, they're just not my cup of tea.
     
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  10. Bournekraatzfan

    Bournekraatzfan New Member

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    Thank you so much for your reports, DORISPULASKI, TanithandBenFan, and circuscandy for your reports! I am so glad you enjoyed Skate America!
    And thank you to literaryfreak, shsocu, and everyone who posted articles, links, and pics—that young Charlie pic is the cutest thing ever, and I love that Meryl posted it! And Meryl doing Gangnam style—just when I thought I couldn’t love her any more than I already do!

    I was trying to collect my thoughts about their new FD. I love it, I already love it! I have watched it several times, and cannot wait to see their next competitive performances. I adored Die Fledermaus, but I think the transitions in this program are more difficult and more interesting. I also think that, artistically, this program is challenging them in ways that DF did not. There is a patience that is really developing in their skating…and by this, I am not only referring to taking time with each step, but also with the arm and head movements. By this, I mean they are attempting to work different levels with the arms, finishing with the hands, varying the position of the head and neck, positioning the arms low and then bringing them up, and (Meryl is) taking the time to move her arm across her body…varying the speed of her arm movements in response to the music and the mood she is trying to create. It is a subtle change, but one that I really appreciate.

    My favourite section is the slower, quieter section in the beginning. I love Meryl’s extended arm and fingers in the camel spin, and I love the tension in her body and the position of her shoulders at the end of that element. And wow, the curve lift, followed by the rotational split lift is a beautiful highlight. I love how they are able to maintain their speed throughout that section.

    I think Meryl is a gorgeous Esmeralda, and I really think this program could be an artistic breakthrough for Charlie. I am already seeing signs of it. He is really trying to push himself and work the music and connect to Meryl. I do agree with those who have said that the connection isn’t quite natural yet, but it may take some experimentation before they find a way to really tap into the connection they have and take it further, but I am happy they are addressing this area of their skating.
    I cannot wait to see how this program progresses throughout the season. With more outings, I think they will really make the changes in tempo and mood pop. I love what I am seeing, though.

    Btw, can anyone translate what the Russian commentators said about their new programs? Thanks in advance!
     
  11. Bournekraatzfan

    Bournekraatzfan New Member

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    Thank you, browning. My thoughts exactly. We seem to discuss this an awful lot around here, and I think it is rather unfair not only to the fans who love both teams, as sap5 rightly pointed out in the last thread, but also to the many V&M ubers who do not engage in that kind of behaviour and/or go out of their way to discourage it in the V&M thread. I have seen the exact same nastiness and ridiculousness from some D&W ubers, (some of it here, some of it in the V&M thread, and some of it originating from the same posters who are so quick to call out others for putting down their favourites) so it really bugs me when one set of ubers is singled out. Thank goodness these people are in the minority in both fan camps. I love both threads and hate to see them tainted by a few bad apples. And the last thing I want to see is a war over which set of fans is the better one.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2012
  12. missysays

    missysays Active Member

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    From what I've seen, V/M do have a masterpiece of a FD this season. Their Carmen is sharp, dynamic, sexual, and dramatic. Having said that, D/W have what I think is a masterpiece of a SD. It is lyrical, light, transcendent. Each team has their own brand of "chemistry" in each of those dances that shines through in a way that can't be matched by the other team.

    From what I've seen, V/M's SD is nice and well done but not a masterpiece and D/W's FD is also good and well done but not a masterpiece. I think what both dances (V/M's SD and D/W's FD) are missing is the choreographic clarity and point of view that makes Carmen and Giselle stand out.

    Having said that the race is so tight between the two teams that SD and especially FD music and choreographic concept could decide a winner before the competition even takes place. Especially the FD music and program choice is very crucial because it's worth more points. That's why I was so worried about D/W's program selection for the FD. The music doesn't have the cohesiveness of even their SD. Also, the choreography is a little lack luster in some spots- such as the opening step sequence is a little unfocused with Meryl looking uncomfortably draped over Charlie and their bodies angled a bit oddly next to each other. Other spots the choreography is very strong such as the lift where Meryl is leaning back with her leg in arabesque.

    Having said that I wouldn't pay attention to the uber fans because they're going to use phrases that don't feel very good. But there is something there in the observation that I think Meryl and Charlie need to think about in terms of strengthening their existing FD to make it have more of a point of view and thereby have it be a stronger competitive program.

    Though now having seen V/M's FD concept, I would have loved Meryl and Charlie to pick something truly modern and avant garde (that could still have some romance or intimacy about it) to act as a stronger counter point and statement against V/M's FD. But as the rest say, it will be nice to see more than just practice footage of V/M.
     
  13. Theatregirl1122

    Theatregirl1122 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think we have much of a leg to stand on about being "better" or "more respectful" fans if we allow people to drag V&M vs. D&W or V&M fans vs. D&W fans in here. The best way to appear respectful is to leave our opinions on V&M for the general threads (except where it specifically relates to Meryl and Charlie) and use this thread to talk about Meryl and Charlie. It's one thing to compare the two programs but we shouldn't use this thread as a safe space for D&W ubers to say whatever they wan't about Tessa and Scott and pretend that the rest of the world can't see us because it is not and they can.


    I think we saw last year that, in the end, who has the more fan-pleasing program isn't going to decide anything. Both teams skated well at worlds, the majority of non-ubers (of either group) preferred DF to Funny Face, and Tessa and Scott still won. So I don't think that most of FSU preferring Carmen will be what ultimately decides this. Although, obviously, I do want Meryl and Charlie to have programs that people love. My biggest concern this season was that I wanted a difficult, intricate program for Meryl and Charlie and I think they absolutely have that. And their program will grow by NHK, by the GPF, by Nationals, and by Worlds. I think it has good bones, so we will see what happens.
     
  14. missysays

    missysays Active Member

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    I loved this performance of DF! It's so much more polished and the movement especially Charlie's arm movement in the place of the program where they stop and move around each other is so much better now that he's had this off season to work on the balletic Giselle SD. The different programs they do really seem to build on one another and help their overall improvement as a team.

    I also like that Charlie said out loud that they want to win Worlds this year and gold in Sochi! Yayy!!!
     
  15. ~tapdancer~

    ~tapdancer~ Well-Known Member

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    Really good thoughts, everyone! One thing I want to mention in regards to the FD...sometimes it's not exactly right the first time out. I'm thinking of Eleanor Rigby, there was some enthusiasm for the dance from Skate America that year but later on that FD became much more flowing, cohesive, and emotional after they tweaked it some, including switching up the music cuts. I remember how lovely it was for nationals that year (2008) and oddly enough, they showed a really nice emotional connection there. I love Notre Dame already but I certainly can see some places for improvements. I'm not worried about the technical part since I have complete faith in Meryl and Charlie to sharpen that up. I adore the SD and I'm sure that one will be one of their signature pieces.

    Definitely agree. Absolutely agree that the opinions of FSU will not decide anything. I had to laugh at a recent post I read in the pbp threads that the "general public" doesn't think Notre Dame is going to be a winner. I hardly think this forum is the general public even within the skating world.

    As for Carmen, I'm sure it will be well-received by the fans at Skate Canada. And probably by the judges as well. But as we know from past experience, head to head matchups between V/M and D/W go back and forth and we won't know till the end who comes out on top. And certainly whichever team you prefer depends on your own personal opinion but in the opinion of most of the judges, they are pretty much on equal footing. And have been for a while.

    ETA: Loved the Today show clip! They should keep using that as their exhibition this year.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2012
  16. circuscandy

    circuscandy New Member

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    I was so hoping that's what they'd be doing at SkAm! I had all of my toes crossed.
     
  17. Theatregirl1122

    Theatregirl1122 Well-Known Member

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    I have to say, I love DF and I love it as an exhibition but I hope they'll get a new exhibition this year. I always want to see more different programs from them rather than fewer.
     
  18. Piper

    Piper Member

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    Not much, really. Just the obvious - leaders, as expected, great dances, interesting elements. He was so impressed by B/S, especially in FD, that he forgot about everything else. At least, this guy has learnt to keep his mouth shut during the dance.
    At Skate Canada we have technical controllers commenting Ladies and Pairs - it's amazing - pretty scary, though, because they see mistakes everywhere. ))
    But where they were a week ago??
     
  19. Bournekraatzfan

    Bournekraatzfan New Member

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    Thanks, Piper.

    And hats off to B&S. They have made significant improvements this year, and I think their choreography is interesting and difficult. very happy for them:)
     
  20. TanithandBenFan

    TanithandBenFan U.S. Ice Dance Junkie

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    I'm in that camp, also. :)
     
  21. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    That was my response as well. I understand this came from a successful musical, but IMO there's good reason it was never brought to Broadway. I didn't find the music very appealing (especially the section with the guy singing). I did like some of the choreo, though, incl another innovative spin entrance.
     
  22. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ITA, I felt the same way after seeing sd and fd of these top ice dance teams. I'm certain both teams will be working to improve on their fd/ sd respectively.
     
  23. sap5

    sap5 Well-Known Member

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    I see it the same way, missaysays. Now both have the whole season to bring up their weak program. I'm excited to see what happens.
     
  24. Tesla

    Tesla Whippet Good

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    I disagree. I think V/M have a usual Carmen. I see nothing new or innovative in the Carmen as compared to the plethora of past Carmens. I really liked D/W's Notre Dame and can't wait to see it progress and get polished. I really liked the music. I really wish V/M would skate to something dark, like "Night on Bald Mountain" or something similar. I want them to step away from the romantic "look at us/we want each other" vibe and do something completely different. I thought Tessa looked like a witch in her Carmen costume and would love to see them explore a darker program. I would also love for D/W to revisit an Eleanor Rigby type program. I loved that program's theme and I think they can be extraordinary with it now they are much more mature. These two teams are the leaders. I would love them to really go outside the box and do something incredibly different and avant-garde.
     
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  25. mollymgr

    mollymgr Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Oct 28, 2012
  26. kosjenka

    kosjenka Well-Known Member

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    It is almost as you have read my mind.
    I sometimes think D&W were a little too young for Eleanor Rigby, but i think they are ready now.

    As far as Tessa&Scott go, their interpretation of Carmen is not modern in my opinion. Their elements and style is more contemporary than dancers before them. I do like they are trying to be more sensual and sexy. But I would like to see them go one step further in the future.
     
  27. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    Just for fun -
    D/W FD SA score - 104.89 SD 71.39
    V/M FD SC score - 104.32 SD 65.09 (They almost lost the SD to Capellini/Lanotte 65.08!)

    I have not seen the video of Carmen yet. If what the above people say is true and D/W's SD is better but V/M's FD is better, then that's not good for D/W if the FD counts for more points. Of course we will have to see them go head-to-head to make a very detailed analysis of any scores.

    I'm dying to know what programs both teams have saved for the Olympic year.
     
  28. mollymgr

    mollymgr Well-Known Member

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    I am a firm believer that a score comparison from different events means absolutely nothing. It has to be compared on the same day, under all the same conditions, under the same judges, same arena etc. All these variables could impact the score on any given day. Programs can look very different from their debut to the final rendition based on changes made from feedback throughout the season. Who knows what could happen between now and World's? :)
     
  29. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    I know, that's why I said "just for fun." I do think it's very interesting that V/M almost did not win the SD. Yes their program could get stronger as the season goes on, but so could C/L's?
     
  30. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

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    Cappellini/Lanotte skated their SD so well for their level that it doesn't seem there's that much room for improvement. If only in PCs. Technically, they could get level 4 for their step sequences later. But Tessa and Scott made mistakes that are very unusual for them, and got many low levels (seems like part of the reason was that accident in the beginning where Scott incidentally hit Tessa with his hand - we couldn't see it from the angle in the official video, but it happened, and most likely it threw them both off a bit). So, they have much more room for improvement. If we believe that Meryl and Charlie will become better in their dances as the season progresses, there is no reason not to believe the same about Tessa and Scott.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2012