Davis and White #14 - Better Late Than Sinatra

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by literaryfreak, Sep 11, 2012.

  1. literaryfreak

    literaryfreak Well-Known Member

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    I think this has been a weakness of theirs for a while, that they tend to have smaller CD patterns. I remember people commenting on this their first year as seniors and from those who attended Worlds last season. I wonder if being a relatively short team has something to do with it. Regardless, I agree, can't give the judges any reason to place them #2!
     
  2. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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    The first thing to get in an SD pattern dance is the levels. The GOE is not as big a point difference as just getting the levels. And to get the levels this year, the timing as well as step correctness, is necessary. They got all Y's on one of the two sequences, so it's not like the 2nd key point that all the dancers were only getting- very intermittently last year; they can get these 6 keypoints for the Yankee.

    Just possibly a little tweaking is needed on how they start the YP here, since their second sequence was better than the first?

    When they're getting all 6 points on both sequences is the time to get more over the ground speed in the pattern, which is of course, what makes the pattern bigger. Getting a GOE of +3 on a YP sequence where you hit zero key points does not score well at all.

    Check the protocols

    4YP1 or 4YP2 with all 3 key points hit is 7.00 base. Doing it with all +3's only buys you an additional 1.5 points = 8.5 points maximum.
    3YP1 or 3YP2 with 2 key points hit is 6.00 base. With all +3's is 7.5 points
    2YP1 or 2YP2 with one key point hit is 5.00 base. +3's on that again is an additional 1.5 points = 6.5 points maximum
    1YP1 or 1YP2 with no key points hit is 3.00 base (Z&G had one sequence with no key points)= 4.5 max.

    If you miss all the key points due to timing problems (easy to do if over pushing for speed in as quick tempo'd a dance as the YP) your max score is 4.5 (and if your timing is glaringly bad, you won't get +3 from judges, nor should you. You probably get the base value at best). If you do the YP correctly and on time, but not particularly outstanding pattern size, worst case would be the base level of 7. So it's clear where teams should put their emphasis, even though old style CD judging gave more credit to pattern size and character of the dance, today that isn't how it's done. Chances are, if you had great polka character with a small, utterly correct pattern with perfect timing throughout, you might get +1, and so 7.5, or 0, and so 7. So you would be risking 4 points for a gain of no more than a point, point and a half. Not a good bet for any team to make.
     
  3. mollymgr

    mollymgr Well-Known Member

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    I think this is the first SD that I've truly loved right off the bat. It looks like they are having fun. Meryl looks so charming in the blue dress. I loved how the whole program flowed.
     
  4. ~tapdancer~

    ~tapdancer~ Well-Known Member

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    Thank you, Doris, for your informative post. It helps tremendously to understand the way CoP works, I think that's a large problem with many posters on here especially if they are long time skating fans. Skating has changed and if you aren't on board with that, it can be as frustrating to understand the judging in the same way it used to be with the ordinal system. And ice dance especially has changed. It's easy to be quick to criticize but if you aren't understanding what the skaters are doing based on what is needed for the points, then your criticism is pointless. I'm using "you" to refer to the collective posting on this forum, or any forum.
     
  5. Jessiebanana

    Jessiebanana Well-Known Member

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    See I can be told that. I even have a book of the patterns, but there is no way I can process that while watching them skate. I'll just have to do with my pointless opinions.
     
  6. TanithandBenFan

    TanithandBenFan U.S. Ice Dance Junkie

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  7. literaryfreak

    literaryfreak Well-Known Member

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    I too love how light Meryl looks across the ice, like a ballerina, whenever a program allows for it. Like in that Nutcracker exhibition from years ago.
     
  8. ballettmaus

    ballettmaus Well-Known Member

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    Their costumes are pretty close to the ballet Giselle costumes used in the first act. I think the blue dress is probably the most popular of Giselle.
    Her: http://thedailyballet.tumblr.com/post/32855945288/polina-semionova-in-giselle-at-the-mikhailovsky
    Both: http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mc1jow60vL1rrs01ko1_1280.jpg
    Nothing Disney about it, in my opinion.

    I didn't see anything "wrong" with their arm movements or choreography; I also think an ice dance program cannot be compared with a ballet choreography per se as there're the danceholds etc which have to be considered. And if they omitted choreography they would loose transitions.
    Personally, I find their dance very well choreographed, actually, and very complete.

    I love how light their dance is and how they capture the playful mood of Giselle at the beginning of the ballet! I also love their music choices. It probably just became my favorite SD of theirs and it's only the beginning of the season!
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2012
  9. Jessiebanana

    Jessiebanana Well-Known Member

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    It's just my opinion, I'm in no way saying it's fact. Also I'm not saying they should greatly lower any difficulty...simply to maybe allow the time to finish movements, if that's the reason. It may not be the reason at all. It could just be the start of the season and they haven't perfected the performance. It's such a great performance that it feels like you're looking at the end of the season.
     
  10. ~tapdancer~

    ~tapdancer~ Well-Known Member

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    LoL, just wanted to pop in and say I'm loving Tanith talking about the technical aspect of ice dance and how to help viewers understand what the judges are looking for.
     
  11. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    Not only did they make it a highlight, they made it not look like a compulsory dance. IMO this was an inspired choice of music and will make the program really stand out from the more folksy/cowboy polka ones.
     
  12. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

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    I know about the blue dress in Giselle. But the dress in the photo that you provided has more fine detail on the bodice and skirt, and the shades of blue are not quite so brigth - because of that, it looks somehow subtler, even more refined in an understated way. I think some fine detail, especially on the bodice of Meryl's dress, is what it lacks. I guess, the plainness and the particular shades of blue is what makes me think of Disney. I remember seeing at least one or (even more than one) dress almost in those exact shades of blue in some Disney movie - plus, dresses tended to be very plain looking/without any small details on them in those older Disney movies. Yes, Meryl has the little flowers on her apron and in her hair, but they make the whole look even more cutesy. The same for Charlie's costume - it's too plain/primitive looking, and I personally don't like that bright shade of brown. But it's very probable that those are not the final costumes.
     
  13. Jessiebanana

    Jessiebanana Well-Known Member

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    Tanith is awesome!
     
  14. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ITA, plus it must be so much harder and exhausting to place the highlight at the end of the program. Very inspired and creative thinking. I love the way their ideas, approach, music and choreography have come together this season, and the way they are always so positive and keep challenging themselves to grow. :)
     
  15. ~tapdancer~

    ~tapdancer~ Well-Known Member

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    104+ for the FD. Not bad considering first time out! Charlie bobbled the first twizzle a little, definitely not as clean as the short dance ones were. The lifts were beautiful but you can tell they still need more time to get really comfortable. They were really trying with the emotional connection but at the same time you could see that they were having to concentrate on the elements (which is understandable with the first competition of the season)and I don't think that it let them really release their emotions fully. I'm sure that will improve!

    What was the real surprise was B/S beating W/P and soundly. 6 points better in the FD. W/P looked way surprised and I'm sure they are going to be going over their FD with a fine-toothed comb. It was obvious they had some small errors throughout but I was surprised at the 91 they got. Having said that, I did like B/S's FD...they have improved so much its incredible. Zhulin has sure worked wonders with them. I think the technical panel here was really tough. Which is probably a good thing in the first competition, you need some hard feedback to know where to tweak things.

    I think D/W made a great choice with Notre Dame and its only going to improve. Not surprised at the haters in the pbp thread but then again I never am.
     
  16. missysays

    missysays Active Member

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    I understand where you're coming from but these competitors have to make sure that their costumes stand out in a large arena where brightness of color is important to add to the visual "pop" and impact they have against the ice surface. Meryl and Charlie especially are smaller in stature than some of the other skaters so they need costumes with bright strong colors that don't have too much "fuss" so it will not detract from their body line or overwhelm their frame.

    I think there's a reason that Meryl selects brighter jewel tone colors for her skating dresses- they add strength to her presence on the ice and look beautiful against her dark hair. I can see why they decided to go with the brighter blue.

    I think their SD costumes are fine though maybe they could do something to smooth out Meryl's skirt- it's a little bunchy looking.

    Interesting side note: Tanith commenting that Meryl and Charlie had tried to put together the Sinatra FD but that it didn't feel right so they changed it again this year. So they haven't had very much time with this program.
     
  17. literaryfreak

    literaryfreak Well-Known Member

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  18. shan

    shan Well-Known Member

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    I need to rewatch the FD b/c I was too nervous to really see it. :lol: Darn Charlie and those twizzles. They definitely have things to work on, this won't be like DF which didn't have obvious things to work on. Can't wait to see it again at NHK.
     
  19. lmarie086

    lmarie086 Well-Known Member

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    ^I think I prefer that, actually. I like to see them grow throughout the season.

    Thanks, literaryfreak! Off to watch now.
     
  20. ~tapdancer~

    ~tapdancer~ Well-Known Member

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    Saw the protocols. Definitely took a hit on levels, 3s on both step seq and the twizzles. And maybe one lift, I can't remember at the moment. Anyway, PCS was great, even got 2 10s. I love the bones of this program and it will get better! Nice that they have 5 weeks before NHK, plenty of time to really work it.
     
  21. jobelle

    jobelle Member

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    I hope they tweak the music cuts a little bit more ... I'm relieved that they don't just have Danse mon Esmeralda repeating for the entire program (it gets a bit repetitive) but I actually think they could use more of it (and less of one of the instrumental cuts).
     
  22. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    Cinderella is the early princess in blue. Is this the look you had in mind
    http://3993cutephotos.pavithraguru.com/index.php?level=picture&id=2747
    or maybe Belles' more peasant look
    http://images2.fanpop.com/image/polls/390000/390402_1267661658907_full.jpg

    I kind of liked the blues in Meryl's dress, but wish she would get rid of the white flap thingy. It looks oversized compared to the ballerina's, but more importantly, it does not move well (prob because it is a heavier fabric than the skirt) and I found it kind of distracting at times. Also, I wish they had gathered it a bit at the waist to make it softer (and more like a real apron). I just didn't care for the flat, rectangle look.

    This production has a dress similar to Meryl's, with the pale skirt/darker bodice and larger apron:
    http://oberon481.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c4e3853ef010536294e52970b-800wi

    I guess we should just be grateful she opted against the wings.
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...pg/200px-Giselle_-Carlotta_Grisi_-1841_-2.jpg

    I thought Charlie's outfit looked fine. Still, I think it's something we'd need to see in person to really judge. Colors can look so different from one monitor to the next.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2012
  23. Jessiebanana

    Jessiebanana Well-Known Member

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  24. kosjenka

    kosjenka Well-Known Member

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    I just saw the program.

    That last lift... For the first time in watching these two skate, I felt they were passionate towards each other.
    They were always passionate for skating, you can feel the attack and how they wanted to feel the music, but the way they relate to each other was never passionate. I would never think they were a couple by watching them skate together. I found that refreshing since almost all couples play the lovers on ice card and some can do it naturally (like Virtue and Moir) others not so much (lets not name anyone).

    But I started wondering that maybe Meryl and Charlie were just not into it. Seems to me they turned a new page and I like it.
     
  25. kosjenka

    kosjenka Well-Known Member

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    double post
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2012
  26. literaryfreak

    literaryfreak Well-Known Member

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    I love the beginning and the end, not sure about the middle. Something is getting lost there. But beautiful lifts, especially the one with Meryl on his thigh. Stunning. And so much emotion! The circular step sequence is a lovely moment, but I wish the structure of it allowed them to face each other more, since the music is so intimate.

    Yeah, could using a bit more of Danse mon Esmeralda build to an even more impressive finish? That music is more moving than the instrumental bits, it would help get the audience into it more.

    I realize there are all sorts of rules about tempo changes - I did not know that both step sequences have to be different tempos, as Tanith said early in the commentary! But I would not mind seeing one less instrumental cut or see it shortened, if they could make it work with the elements and rules.

    There is an inversely proportional relationship between my favorite FDs and the number of music cuts they use. :lol:
     
  27. Theatregirl1122

    Theatregirl1122 Well-Known Member

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    So far I'm really pleased with the FD. Definitely an early season outing but they have so much to work with here! And I loved the way they related to each other. They have made strides with this every year. But this FD really shows it off. I'm very excited about their programs this year. It'll be interesting to see how much progress they can make before NHK. They have so much time and they have always been so good at taking feedback and using it to really improve their work. But they are starting from a great place with both programs. I'm definitely going to want to watch them over again and see more how I feel about them but my first response to both is positive.

    I'll be interested to see the other top teams debut their programs. I haven't gotten to watch B&S or W&P and of course V&M, the shibs, P&B, etc. haven't skated yet on the GP.
     
  28. ~tapdancer~

    ~tapdancer~ Well-Known Member

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    I really loved Tanith's comment as they were coming off the ice..."If all they wanted to do is be the same old Meryl and Charlie they could go out there, attack the program, do their elements, have their tricks and be done with it. They are trying to add another layer to their skating and its going to take a little bit of time to get the speed up, get the fluidity of the transitions up, they will get there. It's a necessary direction that they are going to have to take their skating in if they want to have the whole package come the next Olympics."

    NBC just showed their program! It looked gorgeous on my large screen HD television. :cheer2:
     
  29. Jessiebanana

    Jessiebanana Well-Known Member

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    I really love W&P FD program btw and her costume. I'm excited they got new lifts! I think it's a smart idea for them to run with the modern niche they're creating. It's letting them shine at what they're good at while avoiding direct comparisons. I don't like their SD music, but I think they perform it well.
     
  30. missysays

    missysays Active Member

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    Watched the FD again on the NBC broadcast! Loved Meryl's FD dress in living color on a larger screen. The details of it are amazing- a really gorgeous modern rendition of a gypsy dress.

    I'm still not sure about the overall concept but I do applaud them with the effort and hard work they put into remaking themselves this year.

    It must be incredibly challenging to find a piece of music to fit all the tempo changes and technical elements mandating by the ISU.

    I was listening to Tanith's commentary on Icenetwork and her comment about how strategic teams have to be and show this pre-Olympic year something that will be different from next year's program- the Olympic year program. Makes me wonder what Meryl and Charlie want to show and build towards next year...