Daisuke Takahashi on the importance of being 'gorgeous'

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Maofan7, May 19, 2013.

  1. Maofan7

    Maofan7 Away

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    New article on Dai entitled: Daisuke Takahashi: Japan's golden boy on the importance of being 'gorgeous'.

    ETA - The word 'gorgeous' is a mistranslation by the author of the article. The word actually used by Dai was 'showmanship' (i.e. 'on the importance of showmanship' - see post 2 below). Hence, the article with corrected translation, reads:-

     
    Last edited: May 19, 2013
    genevieve, TheIronLady, hanca and 3 others like this.
  2. Sylvia

    Sylvia Bring on the JGP & Sr B comps!

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    Re-posting from the TV alerts forum: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/sho...uman-to-Hero&p=3924193&viewfull=1#post3924193
     
  3. Maofan7

    Maofan7 Away

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    Last edited: May 19, 2013
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  4. ostile17

    ostile17 Active Member

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    Thanks Maofan and Sylvia!
     
  5. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    Takahashi was right in a sense. But that is not all about figure skating, isn't it? Afterall, showmanship has only counted maxium 30% in scoring.:p Should scoring system emphasizes the showmanship more? I don't think so. I think many fans have given showmanship more weight than it actually has. That is one of the main reasons that there have been great conflicts between the judging system and the fans.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2013
  6. kittyjake5

    kittyjake5 Well-Known Member

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    ^^Where in the article did Dai did say that figure skating is all about showmanship or that the
    scoring system should empasize showmanship more? :confused:
     
  7. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    Read it again! Did I say anywhere that Dai said it?:confused: The article did say, "he is a sport where performance is everything". And the article and Takahashi have focused on only showmanship as if the showmanship has defined Takahashi, which I think that it probably has.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2013
  8. kittyjake5

    kittyjake5 Well-Known Member

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    I misunderstood your first post. You were stating your opinion and how you interpreted the article, I get it.
     
  9. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Ahhh, despite the language difficulties and interpretation problems associated with translation, I think Dai reveals a lot re his humility and how hard he has worked at improving over the course of his career. He was apparently asked about a key quality that figure skaters need to have, and Dai picked "showmanship" as the quality that he feels is a "must have." That doesn't mean he feels everything else in skating is less important.

    It is the person writing the article who is emphasizing theatrical performance abilities as "everything." Quite often media outlets make mistakes in context and/ or emphasis when writing about figure skating. Obviously, athleticism in figure skating is equally important. There are some skating fans who also make the mistake of thinking that athleticism is more important than artistic and performance qualities. What makes figure skating unique is that both art and sport are important in equal measure.

    Your reading and your opinion, but it's clear that Dai did not say "showmanship" is all there is to figure skating, despite the writer's statement that "showmanship is everything in figure skating." Apparently you are giving Dai a backhanded compliment by stating that "showmanship defines his career," but that it doesn't and shouldn't carry much "weight" in the scoring.

    Of course showmanship defines Dai's skating career, as does a whole lotta other positive things including hard work, superb artistry, charisma, sportsmanship, grace, athleticism, and growth through consistently challenging himself to improve. From all the evidence that I've seen, it seems to me that Dai is also quite media savvy as well as greatly admired and respected by his competitors and by skating fans everywhere.

    BTW, your homeboy Patrick Chan, has professed that he looks up to Dai. In fact, from Patrick's comments in past interviews, it seems that Patrick admires Dai for his artistry and showmanship, as well as for his technical brilliance.

    Under 6.0, which also was not a perfect system, presentation marks carried a lot of weight and were the "tiebreaker." As to what the current, ineffective judging system assigns re the numbers ... :blah:
     
  10. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    Why not? Unlike some people, I'd give any skaters where it's due anytime. It was not "backhanded". I've meant to praise him. There was no conflict on what the article said and what I've said as far as I'm concerned. I thought that this is a general topic, not a Takahashi uber thread where only the worship songs are allowed to be sung. Am I wrong?

    Sorry, but "superb artistry, charisma, grace" are belonging to showmanship. They are not "other positive things".:p

    I don't understand why Chan has to be dragged in this?:confused: Should I mention your homeboy Johnny Weir when I respond to your post? Since you have mentioned about Chan admiring Takahashi, for your information, Takahashi has (so has Hanyu) tremendous admirations on Chan's abilities and talent in skating, too.

    It's obvious. 6.0 system has given 50% weight in showmanship equal to the weight on technics. But the current IJS has down-sized that aspect.
     
  11. unicorn

    unicorn Member

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    Give me a break, under 6.0, presentation mark was NOT ARTISTRY mark, not to mention the showmanship for god's sake. In the rule book, same as PCS under IJS, there were specific 1,2, 3, 4 criteria to define what's good presentation such as variation of speed, there were just no protocol for you to see. Good SS is important in any system. Yagudin and Plushenko could win over Timothy Goebel even though they jumped less quads in a FS is the perfect example for you.
     
  12. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    Perhaps showmanship is not the best word to represent presentation. I believe in 6.0, presentation marks was often refered to as artistic marks. It's true that good SS is important under any system. But it is also true that current IJS has cut down the presentation or artistic aspect, increased and emphasized technical aspect. In my understanding, SS has been up staged in IJS. It's hard to estimate what technical aspect or even whether or not any technical aspect had been blended into presentation marks in old 6.0. The best estimate was 50% tech in the name of technical marks and 50% performance and artistry in presentation marks. Your example of Yagudin and Plushenko won over Goebel doesn't explain your point at all. Yagudin and Plushenko have had superior artistry which were projective, meaningful, theatrical, and moving compared with Goebel's dry, emotionless performances.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2013
  13. unicorn

    unicorn Member

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    Your post only shows that you lack the knowledge of both 6.0 and IJS. As I said, just like IJS, under 6.0 there were also 5 categories defining presentation mark. I am not gonna show you the old rule book and discuss the details about that with you, ;) I think lots of fans on this board know which one is true.
    IJS did not cut down the presentation or artistic aspect, it's right there in the rule book, such as carriage, emotions, projection, expression of the music's style, character, rhythm, etc. All about artistic. To be artistic, someone has to have both artistic talent and technique, and that's hard. That's why those kind of skaters are rare. Skaters do not have to be artistic to win (as always), does not mean the system cut down the artistic aspect. Of course, you can keep saying that, but I think it may affect your credibility when you defend for Patrick Chan.
     
  14. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    Such an empty and laughable post! Why? You are not going to teach me the old rules in order to contribute at least something meaningful in discussion here instead of scorning me who is "lack the knowledge of..."? Z, Z, Z,... What a shame!:yawn:

    You have time to throw in words like "you lack the knowledge of" when you yourself don't even know what you are talking about! Do you know the rule book? From your this post, I don't think you do. Please go to read the IJS rule book first. Then tell me, under which category or categories in PCS that "carriage, emotions, projection, expression of the music's style, character, rhythm, etc" are listed?!;)

    You've never believed me before. Why should I expect anything different? Do you think I care?! Sheesh!:shuffle:








    ...On a second thought, I might just be kind, and tell you that what you have listed in your post all belong to what I've already said that 30%.:p
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2013
  15. unicorn

    unicorn Member

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    You are going a little bit crazy now. :) Those words are laughable and hard for you to understand, huh? Those are from the IJS rule book, the system someone is trying to defend it like it's a perfect system while 6.0 is totally rotten. LOL.
    And yes, those things are about 30%, under 6.0 it's about that much too. And it's risky, like a Canadian commentator(Tracey Wilson? dont remember exactly) said, if skaters put emotions into their skate, it's harder for them to execute the technical elements. And sometimes it costs them the win. But those who win with great technique and artistry, and give great performance, we call them great champions. Obviously, Patrick Chan knows that better than you do, that's why he chose Kathy Johnson, he said something like, "I want to be great", "I want to work on emotions", right? But I guess it's not easy, he's not there yet.
     
  16. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    Don't worry, I'm perfectly rational. Though what I'm about to say might make you a little crazy.:lol:

    Something might have been mixed up in your mind I'm afraid. What are the "5 categories" in presentation marks in 6.0 system?! About 6.0, here you go:

    http://figureskating.about.com/gi/o...ww.usfigureskating.org/New_Judging.asp?id=314

    "Composition and originality" belong to CH in IJS. "use of ice" isn't specifically said in IJS. "Carriage and style" belong to PE in IJS. "Expression of the music chosen" belong to IN in IJS. Those CH, PE, and IN only make up 30% in current IJS. But in old 6.0, it was 50% of the total score.

    So I was correct on everything I've said in the first place.:p
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2013
  17. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Yes apparently you're always correctamente, Err Eyre, even in the second, third and fourth places. Undeniable proof that it's irrational to argue with perfectly rational airheads who dumbfoundedly know it all, and then some.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2013
  18. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    What's your point, sweetie?:p I'm not always correct, but I've just happened to be correct this time. Lucky me.:D
     
  19. vodkashot

    vodkashot New Member

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    No, you are actually incorrect. The one sentence you quoted (from a source that is as loose about fact-checking as about.com, no less) is merely a short, one-sentence summary of the presentation mark that is far from complete. The old Skate Canada website had a more authoritative, accurate and complete guide to what the presentation mark actually consisted of under 6.0: http://web.archive.org/web/20020607...anada.ca/english/info/figure/techpresent.html

     
  20. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    Thanks for bringing up this info! Appreciate it!

    Let's see. So out of 7 elements ( the 8th one doesn't belong to singles skating) the things that my link didn't cover were 2 and 4. #2 has actually touched a little bit of SS and TR. #4 belongs to IN. I wanted to correct my previous post on "use of ice". "Use of ice" is actually covered under CH in IJS.

    Overall, it doesn't change much for what I've insisted. The old 6.0 presentation mark still covers about 30% of what they are covered under current IJS. As I've said before that IJS has up staged SS and technics. It has made SS and TR two individual category. In the meantime, it has reduced the importance of old presentation mark which was worth 50% before.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2013
  21. ostile17

    ostile17 Active Member

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  22. unicorn

    unicorn Member

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    You are right, your post made me crazy, made me laugh like crazy, LOL. That's entertaining, thanks. You tried hard to hide your embarrassment, but it showed that you had no idea what's good skating. LOL
     
  23. unicorn

    unicorn Member

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    Actually, I shouldn't laugh, :lol:. You really went to look for that "5 categories", that's sort of cute. :lol:
     
  24. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    You know what? I'm begining to think that you probably know nothing about the word "productive discussion". Venomous personal attacks are probably all you are capable of. I'm not going to entertain you for such meaningless comments.

    So you really think that I have believed you, and went to search for those 5 categories? Oh, my!:rofl: Go ahead to think that way if that could make you feel less embarrassed in introducing it in the first place! I shouldn't have tried to make the exchange more productive by giving you a link and discussing them. I knew in the beginning that you've mixed them up even though I'm not that familiar with 6.0. I have no embarrassment in admitting that I'm not familiar with something. I'm willing to learn unlike you who just pretend to know something but you actually don't know.;)
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2013
  25. kittyjake5

    kittyjake5 Well-Known Member

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    Any news on Dai's programs for the upcoming season?
     
  26. ostile17

    ostile17 Active Member

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  27. midori

    midori Well-Known Member

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    I have not gone through the thread but I do not think "showmanship" does not really translate the original word either.


    The word "hanayaka-sa" derives from "flower", and dictionaries suggest words like flowery, flamboyant, brilliant, gorgeous, gaiety, sparkle, gaily, rich, and cheerful. When they list too many words it often suggests they could not find the right word in English. ;)
     
  28. ostile17

    ostile17 Active Member

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    Thank you Midori!

    Wouldn't "beauty" have worked better than "gorgeousness" in this translation?
     
  29. midori

    midori Well-Known Member

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    Mmm, I do not know. To me the original word expresses atmosphere, that is often created by the presence of gorgeous flowers, not the quality of the flowers themselves. "Beauty" sounds like the latter.

    But when Daisuke was tweeting, his words are very hard to decode to many Japanese... so, heaven knows what he really meant. ;)
     
  30. os168

    os168 Active Member

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    Dai is indeed gorgeous and a real showman (I think people are confusing semantics with negative connotations of the word showmanship as if it appears insincere). I wonder if he must be African in his previous life, the guy sure can move for an Asian. Got that bit of the Michael Jackson genes in him, utterly genius and free when he is ON.

    (But when I thought a bit more about it deeply; the reverse might also be true. Michael Jackson did look increasingly Japanese as he gots older, so many he got some Asian genes in his previous life).