Cycling continued

Discussion in 'Other Sports' started by Garden Kitty, May 7, 2009.

  1. NinjaTurtles

    NinjaTurtles Teenage Mutant

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    I keep seeing the mention of 2009 and 2010 laboratory samples, does this mean samples re-tested in 2009 and 2010 or samples taken in 2009 and 2010? If it's samples taken in 2009 and 2010, does it make a difference that it was years after his last TdF win?
  2. Rafter

    Rafter Well-Known Member

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    I read something last night about an Armstrong failed test back in 1999, but it was swept under the carpet in exchange for a donation of $250,000 to some charity.

    What I don't get is how the USADA can strip him of his titles. Wouldn't the TdF or UCI have to do that?

    I know cycling is a joke with rampant doping etc, but it's interesting to me that there's been such a witch hunt against Armstrong and not other dominant athletes such as Michael Phelps.
  3. skategal

    skategal Well-Known Member

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    The guy they interviewed this morning on Canada AM (sorry, don't recall his name) had an interesting take on the situation. Basically, he said that he feels Armstrong stopped the process because he was afraid of testifying and committing perjury and ending up in jail (same as Marion Jones.) Apparently, Marion Jones never tested positive for doping either...
  4. Theatregirl1122

    Theatregirl1122 Well-Known Member

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    The UCI and Lance Armstrong both contended that the USADA can't strop him of his titles. It is part of Armstrong's statement.
  5. Rob

    Rob Beach Bum

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    I feel the same way. I wonder if the only way to level the playing field is to make it all legal, let them all use, and let them jeopardize their health if they want to.

    They should just leave the titles vacant and not give them to other dopers or the entire process will be a huge joke.

    Anyway, all of this is making me far less interested in cycling.
  6. Garden Kitty

    Garden Kitty Tranquillo

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    I think the 2009 and 2010 samples they're referring to relate to blood passport tests which they claim show an unnatural pattern (as interpreted by a given "expert"), but nothing that qualifies directly as a positive test - but that is just based on some hints dropped by the USADA.

    I'm just annoyed that there is a great race going on in Colorado right now featuring some promising young US talent as well as established stars, plus the third Grand Tour and the exciting race in Portugal but all that will get coverage is Lance.
  7. Garden Kitty

    Garden Kitty Tranquillo

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    I think one key difference is that with Lance there were a number of former teammates who were publicly saying they'd been involved in doping with him. Granted a number of them like Floyd Landis and Tyler Hamilton had their own issues and weren't the best witnesses, but there were public statements by people alleging first hand info. There's no similar evidence for Phelps and, in fact, when the USADA had a voluntary drug passport testing program as a trial program, Phelps was one of the athletes who volunteered to participate for extra testing.
  8. london_calling

    london_calling New Member

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    Are those who covered up for Lance Armstrong going to face any consequences?
  9. Anita18

    Anita18 Well-Known Member

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    It is. It's something they give you to replenish your blood cells during chemo. My friend with pancreatic cancer joked that when he's recovered in a few years, he can go win the Tour de France and they can't get him for doping since he used the EPO in a legitimate manner. :lol:

    I generally have no opinion on this. The cycling tours are still great athletic feats. (So much so that probably everyone dopes.) Any couch potato who doped wouldn't be physically capable. It's just a shame that we won't know who really isn't doping until the science catches up.
  10. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the information - I hope your friend will have a complete recovery, with or without a future cycling career. :)
  11. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Adam Rippon just tweeted:

    That #AwkwardMoment when they take down all the Lance Armstrong quotes at the Olympic Training Center. #Yikes​

    All of the self-flagellation going on among sportswriters who, once again, have had their seven-year old hearts broken...
  12. DaiKozOda

    DaiKozOda Active Member

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    Volta a Portugal
    24-08-2012; 8th Stage; 154,9KM (Guarda / Seia) - All about Mountain
    Winner: David Blanco (Efapel)
    Video summary of the stage: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcrISwBaD4c&feature=plcp

    First of all, it was a day of contrasts because in city of Guarda the weather was very nice with the sun shinning and around 30ºC of temperature. In the arrival in Seia, the weather was misty, rainy and the temperature was around 19ºC.
    Due to the way the stage was constructed, we can't really speak about a bunch. There were groups here and there.
    Jason Bakke of Team Bonitas crashed in a way down with Sérgio Sousa of Efapel. Still, he was able to continue and lead the race for some time until he was finally caught. Due to his posite attitude he was rewarded with the combativity prize.
    David Blanco (Efapel) won the stage convincingly and took the yellow jersey away from Hugo Sabido (LA Antarte) who is now in 2nd place and 8 seconds behind Blanco.
    Brice Feillu (Saur Sojasun) moved up to 6th place overall and Darwin Atapuma (Colombia) made it to the top ten (8th place).
    Rui Sousa (Efapel) was second in this stage and managed to keep his blue jersey (mountain).
    David de la Cruz (Caja Rural) still leads the youth board.
    Despite the fall on the stage, Sérgio Ribeiro was brave enough to get the red jersey (points) surpassing Reinardt van Rensburg.
    Team board: Efapel is in the lead. United Healthcare dropped to 12th place.
  13. vesperholly

    vesperholly Well-Known Member

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    I'm not a cycling follower. Is it an open secret that Armstrong doped? Even if it's true that he failed drug tests in 2009 and 2010 (and I have yet to see actual proof of this, only allegations), then why are his TDF titles from 99-05 in jeopardy? Why are they backdating his doping charges to 1998?

    The jurisdiction and zeal of USADA seems rather suspect, especially since WADA, the US and Int'l cycling associations aren't exactly jumping on board to strip him of his titles forthwith. They're investigating him past their own statute of limitations - why?
  14. jenny12

    jenny12 Well-Known Member

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    Obviously if Armstrong doped (which is very likely), it is incredibly wrong. However, it seems like everyone in cycling doped, so, in a sense, wasn't it a even playing field?
  15. london_calling

    london_calling New Member

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    I think a lot of athletes who dope feel that way. "Everyone else is doing it and I have to as well if I want to keep up." It's especially discouraging considering that powers that be are not exactly cracking down on dopers and are often covering up for them.
  16. morqet

    morqet Active Member

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    The USADA has his 10 of his team-mates from the US Postal Service team ready to testify against him that he was doping throughout his career. There are also many suspicions over samples from the 1999 tour that were re-tested in 2005 as part of the development of a new test for EPO: http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/michael-ashenden
  17. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    A lot of these guys have themselves been caught doping, though, and some of them are being offered generous terms to testify against Armstrong; it kind of puts them in the same category as jailhouse snitches - not the most reliable testimony (e.g. I wouldn't believe anything Landis says about anyone without hard proof, for instance).

    Again, I think it's quite likely that Armstrong did things he shouldn't have, but I'm not comfortable with how the USADA has set about proving it. I doubt they have any strong scientific evidence, or we would have certainly heard about it by now.

    I know it's cynical, but as others have said - if everyone was doping, it really was kind of a level playing field.
  18. DaiKozOda

    DaiKozOda Active Member

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    Volta a Portugal
    25-08-2012; 9th stage
    ; 32,6KM (Pedrogão / Leiria) - Time Trial
    Winner: Alejandro Marque from Spain (team Carmin Prio Tavira)
    Carmin Prio Tavira finally won a stage. Alejandro Marque won the time trial with Reinardt van Rensburg (MTN) in 2nd and José Gonçalves (Onda Boavista) was 3rd.
    David Blanco (Efapel) was able to keep the yellow jersey, that he got yesterday, but it isn't over yet cause any of the guys in top 5 is still in a position to claim the overall victory tomorrow. Blanco was 4th in the time trial.
    Jason McCartney (United Healthcare) finished the stage in 5th place. The brazilians were finally able to have a good result on a stage: Magno Nazaret finished 6th. yay!
    The time trial was exciting especcially because Blanco and Sabido were in the road at the same time and in some points Sabido seemed to be able to get the yellow jersey back. It was a dispute by second. Sabido wasn't able to keep up with his initial rhythm and the last kms were a bit of a nightmare to him.

    And how about the jerseys:
    Yellow: David Blanco leads the overall board. Hugo Sabido is still 2nd.
    Blue (mountain): Rui Sousa (Efapel) still keeps the blue jersey and is pretty much the virtual winner. Today, this wasn't in jeopardy.
    Red: Reinardt van Rensburg (MTN) recovered the red jersey. Sérgio Ribeiro didn't do well in the time trial and couldn't get any points and that meant that he dropped to 4th place.
    Youth: David de la Cruz (Caja Rural) was able to keep this jersey today but only just. He lost time to Omar Fraile (Orbea Continental) who is currently in 2nd place. José Gonçalves (Onda Boavista) recovered to 3rd place here.
  19. Choupette

    Choupette New Member

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    People are rarely unidimensional. I've never believed he was clean (not because it was him, but because of my lack of faith in cycling in general) and it really got on my nerves when he was explaining he'd never dope and take risks with his health after having cancer. However, I also thought he had an impressive work ethic, showed a lot of perseverance and was probably the most talented cyclist anyway.

    Speaking of EPO, Lance Armstrong himself was given some during his own chemo treatments.
  20. Garden Kitty

    Garden Kitty Tranquillo

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    Interesting graphic from the NY Times showing the top 10 finishers from the last few years and which have been suspended for some doping violationm (and those are just the ones who've been caught).

    I'm still annoyed all this is taking away from the fantastic US Pro Challenge in Colorado this week, as well as the racing in Portugal and Spain. The crowds in Boulder today were amazing - huge and enthusiastic.
  21. MR-FAN

    MR-FAN Kostner Softie

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    If so many competitors in this sport are dopers, how come most of them don't get caught with the rigorous anti-doping tests that go on all the time? Are the tests so un-advanced that they can't detect the drugs being used by most of these competitors? They apparently keep test samples for years, and I can't believe they still can't get a positive test for doping techniques from a decade ago.
  22. Garden Kitty

    Garden Kitty Tranquillo

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    One popular "doping" method is homologous blood doping in which athletes draw blood, and reinject the red blood cells from their own blood. Since it is their own blood, it doesn't get picked up in tests. This is one reason behind the blood passports which test levels over time and look for variations that don't seem natural. But that is an inexact method and still relatively new.

    Operation Puerto which tripped up a number of cyclists in 2006 was related to blood doping and one theory holds that Vino got caught only when his doctor mixed up his blood bag with another rider's on the team. Doping isn't for those with weak stomachs!
  23. DaiKozOda

    DaiKozOda Active Member

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    Volta a Portugal
    26-08-2012; 10th stage; 149,5KM (Sintra / Lisbon) - The final day
    Winner: Reinardt van Rensburg from South Africa (MTN)
    Van Rensburg sprinted to victory in Lisbon leaving Boy van Poppel (Holland) from United Healthcare in 2nd place. Samuel Caldeira (Carmin Prio Tavira) was the best portuguese guy on the stage and finished in 3rd place. Bradley White (USA) from United Healthcare crashed and withdrew in the very last day.

    Conclusion:
    Individual: David Blanco (Efapel) had a great time in the last 3 stages of the Volta and managed to claim the victory to get the yellow jersey. Hugo Sabido (LA Antarte) stayed in 2nd place only 22 seconds away from success. Surprisingly, Sabido didn't sound frustrated at all. It looks like this second place finish gave him motivation to attack it in 2013. 3rd: Rui Sousa (Efapel); 4th Daniel Silva (Onda Boavista); 5th David de la Cruz (Caja Rural); 6th Brice Feillu (Saur Sojasun); 7th Sérgio Ribeiro (Efapel); 8th Nuno Ribeiro (Efapel); 9th Darwin Atapuma (Coldeportes); 10.º Vergílio Santos (LA Antarte); Massive disappointment for Carmin Prio Tavira cause they couldn't get a single cyclist in the top ten.

    Blue jersey (Mountain) - Rui Sousa (Efapel) was the winner with a comfortable margin.

    Orange jersey (Youth) - David de la Cruz (Caja Rural) managed to get 1st place. Omar Fraile (Orbea Continental) was 2nd and José Gonçalves (Onda Boavista) was 3rd. Just out of curiosity: Domingos Gonçalves, the twin brother of José Gonçalves, finished in 7th place.

    Red jersey (points): Reinardt van Rensburg (MTN) won the last stage and secured the 1st place here. United Healthcare didn't do bad cause Jason McCartney finished 6th and Jay Thomson finished in 8th with Boy van Poppel and Kai Reus in positions 11th and 12th.

    Teams - Top 10:
    1.º - Efapel (Portugal)
    2.º - LA Antarte (Portugal)
    3.º - Onda Boavista (Portugal)
    4.º - Carmin Prio Tavira (Portugal)
    5.º - Caja Rural (Spain)
    6.º - Columbia / Coldeportes (Colombia)
    7.º - Orbea Continental (Spain)
    8.º - Saur/Sojasun (France)
    9.º - Burgos (Spain)
    10.º - Lokosphinx (Russia)

    Video summary of the last stage: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdIcE10p3zQ&feature=plcp
    Important note: David Blanco is the first ever cyclist to win the tour of Portugal for 5 times.
    Last moments of the stage: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r17xPeBWgic&feature=plcp

    I hope some of you liked the info and the videos about this tour.
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2012
  24. Garden Kitty

    Garden Kitty Tranquillo

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    Thank you very much! It sounds like an exciting race and unfortunately it didn't get that much coverage here since it was competing with the Vuelta and the race in Colorado.

    And Boy Van Poppel is one of my favorite names in the peloton!
  25. kedrin

    kedrin Active Member

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    Likewise- I've enjoyed your updates- thanks for posting. I wish we could see more of this race- you've peaked my interest. I'm sorry your posts seemed to get lost in all of the Lance stuff.
  26. DaiKozOda

    DaiKozOda Active Member

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    Thank you Garden Kitty and Kedrin :) In case you have any questions about the race, feel free to ask. I'll be happy to answer if I can.
  27. allezfred

    allezfred Prick Admin Staff Member

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  28. vesperholly

    vesperholly Well-Known Member

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  29. allezfred

    allezfred Prick Admin Staff Member

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    Except it's not just him. Or even one or two others. For me the testimony of almost a dozen people is stronger to me than one saying "I've never failed a doping test."

    But I guess it must be hard for many of those people who bought into the yellow wristbands to admit to themselves that they've been conned.
  30. morqet

    morqet Active Member

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  31. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    I think it's possible to be skeptical about Armstrong's claims regarding testing and still feel that relying on the testimony of the likes of Hamilton (who has his own interests) and cyclists offered various deals by the USADA is problematic. At this point, there's really nobody I'd consider believable on either side. I realize that the USADA is not held to the same standards that govern regular legal proceedings, but I am not very impressed with their handling of this case, and I suspect if they had any strong scientific proof, it would be on every US website by now - not just as a leak to someone from Stade 2.

    A lot of the people who bought into the yellow wristband stuff did so because they needed inspiration at a difficult time in their lives, so it's not surprising that they would like to hold on to that belief.
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2012
  32. vesperholly

    vesperholly Well-Known Member

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    Please. I don't own a stitch of inspirational anything, much less an ugly yellow wristband. :rofl: It's possible that he both doped AND the USADA can't prove it and is overzealous in their pursuit of him.

    IIRC, the anti-doping agencies all state that their criteria for banning/stripping of results is positive drug tests, NOT testimony from other riders. This isn't a court of law. They have rules and they appear to not be following their own rules just for the sake of taking down the "Big Dog" of cycling. It has a whiff of witchhunt to me.

    If USADA really does have positive samples, Travis Tygart would be screaming it from the hills. Retested under the authority of an organization that is bending over backwards to vilify Armstrong? I've read that USADA has a statute of limitations on retesting, and they have ignored it in retesting his samples. Why?

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/usada-armstrong-could-have-retained-five-tour-wins

    WTF? If he co-operates, we will stick to our rules. But since he said shove it, I'm going for the whole enchilada? Come on. This is ridiculous.
  33. Rafter

    Rafter Well-Known Member

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  34. Garden Kitty

    Garden Kitty Tranquillo

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    There was an attempt to retest some early samples a few years ago, and the UCI report determined that the samples had not been maintained in a manner sufficient to ensure that there wasn't tampering. I suspect we'll hear similar arguments if such retesting did occur.

    WADA has definitely maintained that it doesn't need a positive test in order to seek sanctions - that is sort of the whole aim of the blood passports - to detect irregularities that don't trigger an adverse result. The actions against Jan Ullrich and most of the people involved with Operation Puerto were based on evidence found at the doctor's office and not a positive test.

    But in other news, Contador had an impressive day at the Vuelta with some very clever tactics from Riis (and help from an old Astana buddy), and has taken a big stage win and the leader's jersey at the Vuelta.
  35. DaiKozOda

    DaiKozOda Active Member

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    The Vuelta is being so exciting! I'm loving it.
  36. Garden Kitty

    Garden Kitty Tranquillo

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    Agreed. The Tour is always fun just because of the spectacle of it all, but the Vuelta has had some really exciting racing this year. I loved how Riis had the other riders drop back to interfere with the chase - classic Riis!
  37. Garden Kitty

    Garden Kitty Tranquillo

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    Garmin's DS Jonathan Vaughters was participating in a forum discussion on Cyclingnews and "outed" Danielson, VandeVelde and Zabriskie as former dopers by name. Article discussing the postings is on Cyclingnews


    Vaughters says he just got caught up in the debate, but others suspect this was a calculated move to get the news out there before the USADA releases details from the Armstrong investigation. Although Vaughters got a self-serving article in the NY Times for his confession and his riders just get a post on a forum.

    For those who want more details about the mechanics of blood doping, this interview from a few months ago with Michael Ashenden is intersting although a bit technical.
  38. Garden Kitty

    Garden Kitty Tranquillo

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  39. DaiKozOda

    DaiKozOda Active Member

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  40. Garden Kitty

    Garden Kitty Tranquillo

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    I was worried when I saw a tweet referring to a "severe concussion" - it's almost the end of the season. He should be very careful and not risk another injury while he's still recovering.