Could Sumners realistically beat Witt in 84?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Lnt175, Jun 26, 2013.

  1. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

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    Unfortunately for Biellmann I'm not sure if she had improved at figures after her worlds win to contend with Sumners or an upcoming Witt in 84. She could have perhaps gotten a Bronze.
     
  2. Rock2

    Rock2 Well-Known Member

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    Skaters always talked about "whose turn it was" for each Olympics. In 1984 it was Hamilton's and Sumners' turn. Basically theirs to lose. Hamilton skated horribly but the other contenders were too far behind after the figures so he was able to hold on. Roz didn't have the same advantage so her poor skate was able to be passed.

    Boitano talked about this in 1988. Despite his clean skating he said he was shocked to win because it was "Orser's turn", having ridden the bench long enough and being the only real gold medal contender on home turf. Orser lost by only one judge yet had so much less technical content (missed flip, one less 3A, no 3/3)
     
  3. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

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    There were some figures that Zayak had great difficulty doing because of the missing part of her foot.
    Her success really depended on which ones she was required to do.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3Eqk6PoS1M
     
  4. dorianhotel

    dorianhotel Member

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    I thought Sumners deserved the gold medal as it was. Her mistake in the short should have been only a .1 deduction so I would have had her winning the short with 5.7, 5.9 vs Witt who I gave 5.8, 5.7. Chin probably winning the short with 5.8, 5.8, but Sumners only had to beat Witt in the short to guarante the gold. Then in the long Sumners had only 1 less triples than Witt and artistic was much better so she should have beaten her in the long anyway. I would have given Witt 5.8, 5.7 and Sumners 5.7, 6.0. Wit getting 4 5.9s for artistic in the long was a travesty since she had no artistic abilties at all yet and was super sloppy, and skating a terible choreography program which Peggy Fleming noted in the book. It shows it was probably fixed for her to win even if Sumners had skated perfectly the judges wouldnt let her win. She even said she knew that too on her Fire on Ice interview so gave up in the last minute of the long knowing the judges werent going to let her win no matter what she did.
     
  5. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    Sumner's opened/popped jumps were too jarring to be ignored by the judges and people knowledgeable with skating. I also didn't think her LP performance deserved a 6. There wasn't any spark in Roz that night.

    That's a bunch of crocks from Sumners if she really said that. I'll have to look up that piece on utube again, but I remembered it differently though. Roz said that she had skated the perfect program at the practice session the night before the final. On the day of the final, she knew that she had gave all she had at the practice ice the night before and realized she wasn't going to be able to replicate that perfect performance again. Well, I think that was a bunch of crock also. Sumners choked. Plain and simple. No need to make up some silly reason why she couldn't perform.

    -------

    ETA: Fire On Ice

    Roz said that did the LP of her life at the last practice session the night before the final. She woke up the next morning and just knew that it wasn't going to happen. So according to Roz, she pretty much already gave up the day of the final. What sealed the deal for Roz was seeing the expression on her coach after her coach had watched Kat skated her LP. Roz read from her coach's expression was that her coach didn't think she could win; So that of course put more self-doubt into Roz's mind that night.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2013
  6. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

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    Sumners was never that great at clean programs anyway. She also fell earlier in the year at nats. I agree her skating was beautiful and flowy like at 82 nats and 83 worlds, but I agree no way did she deserve to place above Witt. Whats odd is she began great, hit the triples and looked confident (unlike say Cohen who bombed her first half of the LP in 06) but halfway through looked like she gave up.
    I actually think Zayak may have a case for winning the LP at both 84 Olympics and 84 worlds.
     
  7. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    I thought Zayak's skating had became somewhat ponderous after her body matured in 82. The judges didn't favor her style of skating anymore. The SP was very good, but the energy she had in the SP was not carried through to the LP.
     
  8. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

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    I agree she gave many memorable performances. I always wondered why she didn't attempt even a triple toe in her earlier years though. She always had something going on in her programs though with footwork, wallys, one foot axel etc.

    BTW I wanted to add this thread wasn't meant as a bash to Sumners, as I think her overall skating were actually of superior quality to Witts at that time, and Elaines who was a bit raw sometimes. I was rewatching her 83 nats program and she threw in a triple toe at the very end of her program, after falling on a sal earlier. She seemed to hold back technically while Witt was a much stronger jumper (higher jumps and confidence). Too bad she didn't throw a couple more jumps in her Sarajevo program like that.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2013
  9. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    Apart from ice dance (where the winners were carved in stone long before the events began) I don't think that was true anymore by the 1980s and I surely don't remember Sumners or even Hamill being seen as locks for the gold medal. (Hamilton probably was, but he had won every Worlds since Lake Placid.) There were favorites or co-favorites, but they still could lose with a big figures error or bad performances.

    I remember the turn concept as relating more to a skater's turn as US #1 (again, apart from ice dance where better teams waited for their turns as USSR/world dance team #1).
     
  10. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    Hamill wasn't the heavy gold favorite heading into Insbruck, because she hadn't won any World title previously. Christina Errath won Worlds in 74 and Dianne DeLeew was World champ in 75.
     
  11. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    ^Hamill actually prior to Innsbruck was known for nerves
     
  12. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    Could she? Absolutely! She nearly did. You'all can go on and on about "decline" and "too many errors" etc.. But the huge tech marks she got from the judges tell a very different story. In fact, her entire loss seems to stem from the Canadian judge giving Witt a slight edge for presentation due to, I assume "spark" or "heart" or whatever the bs reasons they give. Witt skated a crowd pleasing shallow program that is quite frankly, rather juniorish IMO, especially compared to her own later skating. Summers was much better artistically at this point, and gave a program with a lot more skating in it, compared to witt's usual stand, rest, pose, flirt in between tricks showy programs, but Roz was a bit off and like in Nagano, the gold went to the skater with more visible energy.
     
  13. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

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    She most certainly could have beat Witt, but I think it's right that she didn't. There were too many major technical omissions in that skate despite how lovely it was artistically.

    Re: berthesghost's post, I wonder how Roz would feel if an on-air commentator said that she "phoned in" her Sarajevo LP. :p
     
  14. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    Roz's Oly LP was way overscored, IMO, especially the tech marks. And a 6.0 for presentation? I mean yeah, she was a pretty skater, but really?
     
  15. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Well Witt sure as hell didnt deserve 5.9s from half of the judges for presentation for such a poorly choreographed hot mess of a program (atleast her short was well choregraphed and quite nice), and while I am no fan of Sumners, Roz was definitely a better presentation skater at that point so a 6.0 could easily be justified actually based on the presentation scores they had already given Witt. I am surprised it didnt come from one of the West German or Canadian judges instead who needed that to place her 1st, while the Italian didnt even need it to place her first, although I am relieved it didnt as I dont think she deserved to win with that skate. Giving a 6.0 in the case of one of the judges who wanted to place her above Witt overall, certainly made more sense than the Belgian judge who gave a 5.9 for tech. merit in order to do it.

    Both Sumners and Witt were overscored on both sets of marks for the performances they gave that night, especialy Sumners on tech. and Witt on presentation, so it virtually evens out, and the right person probably won in the end. Had the scoring been correct Chin and Zayak would have finished 1-2 in the LP, which would have made absolutely no difference to Witt or Roz, but might have moved Chin past Ivanova for the bronze.
     
  16. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    I wish Sumners had kept her entire 83 LP for 84. I didn't think changing the middle part to "Amazing Grace" added anything new to it, and it was too bad that she dropped her trademark inside edge Ina Bauer into 2A combination.
     
  17. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

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    I agree her 83 LP was a great program. Really nice middle part too with the footwork section.
     
  18. usova94gold

    usova94gold Member

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    Of course she could have. She arguably should have as it was. Had she landed just 1 more jump she wins easy. Had 1 of 3 judges given her .1 more she wins.

    Couldnt she have won the Gold before the long even began by winning the short. Too bad she didnt have her 83 Nationals short performance as that would have won her the short program easily and secured the gold before the long even began, and she probably would have just let loose and done a great and easy winning long too then.
     
  19. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    :lol: a sort of back to the future reverse karma. :p

    I was shocked though, that mere seconds after narrowly losing the gold by 0.1 in a vote that fell almost scripted by east/west party lines, uncle dick was screaming into his mike "and it's not political! It's not political!" :lol: