Could Maria have defended her World title in 2000

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by butyrskafanatic, Jul 14, 2013.

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Could Maria have defended her World title in 2000

  1. yes

    47 vote(s)
    77.0%
  2. no

    14 vote(s)
    23.0%
  1. butyrskafanatic

    butyrskafanatic Member

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    Looking back at the 2000 Worlds could Maria have defended her title had she done a better long. She won the short handily even with Slutskaya and Kwan skating cleanly and the usually anti Maria judges showed they appreciated her skating for once by giving her a raft of 5.9s for her performance. The kind of marks she almost always deserved but only on that occasion received.

    She wouldnt have even needed to win the long to defend her title, only place 2nd behind Michelle. Given her marks in the short program which were much higher than Michelle's in the long it is easy to imagine her winning the long as well, but she didnt even need to do that. She only needed to beat a subpar Slutskaya who had mistakes, poor artistry, and no triple-triple tries and only 6 triples. I think a somewhat clean Maria would have had to be placed atleast 2nd in the long which would have been enough to win whether she won the long or not.

    I think if she had won the 2000 World title and been a 2 time World Champion the judges would have given her alot more respect the following 2 seasons too and she would have been a real medal contender for the 2002 Olympics. Probably not the favorite but someone to take seriously instead of a forgotten old skater given no chance to medal no mater how she skated and shafted behind an international newcomer like Cohen and mediocre no talent mule kicking Hughes.
  2. butyrskafanatic

    butyrskafanatic Member

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    I also am still a bit mad Maria didnt get a few 6.0s for presentation for her short at those Worlds. She was skating last and clearly had the best short, and the judges thought so too. So why couldnt she have gotten any 6.0s, the program was worth a 6.0s for presentation and there was nobody to save room for.
  3. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

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    She almost did too, but the judges were still favoring Slutskaya, as evidenced by the fact that Slutskaya almost (undeservedly) beat Kwan.
  4. escaflowne9282

    escaflowne9282 Well-Known Member

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    If she had skated cleanly in the LP ,she would have wound up ahead of Irina , and possibly Michelle, and that would have been enough to win. It can be argued that she deserved to finish ahead of Irina as it was.
  5. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    If she landed her triple-triple sequence or did her qualifying round skate with a triple-double sequence but doing the second triple salchow the judges would have probably atleast put her over Irina which would have been enough to win. So she probably didnt even have to be completely clean to be over an imperfect Slutskaya, but she couldnt get away with landing badly short on the triple-triple sequence, doubling another jump, and no second triple lutz and still place 2nd or 1st in the long. Her long program was not as artistically strong as her short or her last years long even if she skated it cleanly either, and even worse when she made mistakes.

    Irina's performance while probably overscored wasnt actually bad. She did a second triple lutz which Maria wasnt even trying, and if one excuses her big popped open salchow since she threw it right in after, it was a clean 6 triple skate. It was just dissapointing given her other performances that year.
  6. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

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    Butyrskaya seemed to tighten up whereas in the SP she was just on fire. I agree Slutskaya had a better skate IMO than 02 Olympics, and Maria really needed to land all her jumps to have any chance of beating a relatively clean Slutskaya.
  7. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I guess one question is if Maria duplicated her Q round performance, while not perfect or even totally clean, would it have been enough to win overall. Something in between a clean skate and what she actually did:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1IetgypCSE

    6 triples, no triple-triple sequence or combo try, no 2nd triple lutz, and a hand down on the 2nd double axel. Way more speed than her final LP skate though. Still less content than Irina who had a 2nd triple lutz, a triple lutz-double loop, and triple salchow-double loop combo, and of course way less tech. content than Michelle who was perfect. Irina still would have done a bit more and skated a bit cleaner than even that skate.

    Almost certainly not enough to beat Michelle's LP but possibly enough to beat Irina's which would have given her the gold over Michelle? I am not sure, it would have been interesting had she not skated cleanly, but skated her Q round performance as opposed to her final LP one. Her marks here were much higher than her LP marks were, and the marks in the actual LP tend to be alot higher than the Q round for a comparable performance. It might have been enough to take 2nd in the LP over Irina based on the 2nd mark, although Irina actually had some really high marks, slightly higher tech. marks than Kwan, and 2 1st place votes over Kwan even for what she did.
  8. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

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    With a clean LP, yes, Masha could have been a 2-time & defending World Champ. Her lovely SP was stunningly beautiful!
  9. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Didn't we already have a thread with this question like a month ago?
  10. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Member

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    She couldnt get any 6.0s because her spiral sequence and layback spin to end the program were both mediocre, and those are two moves that when not done properly create imperfection on both the technical and artistic mark, especialy in a short program. Thus giving her a ceiling of 5.9 on both marks.
  11. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Member

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    No. The other thread was about what would have happened had Irina, Michelle, and Maria all skated cleanly in the LP. This one says nothing about Irina skating cleanly or better, but only Maria.

    Since Maria won the other poll handily though it seems stupid and redundant to present her a much easier scenario and still ask if she suceeds.
  12. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    It still seems repetitive to me, because it seems like fishing for a consensus to say "why yes, Butyrskaya would be a two-time World Champion had this happened!"
  13. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Member

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    Well I am still glad she isnt. It would be bad for the sport if that had happened. It would be like Tonia Kwiatkowski winning Worlds twice. Maria is essentialy the Russian Tonia K. An old journeywomen average type skater, who hangs around with mediocre talent through determination and perseverance. In her case just getting lucky to capatilize on a weak transition year with nobody there (except her and Michelle) to win a Worlds and gang some extra clout out of nowhere, and who almost translated that into even more greatness but thank goodness didnt.

    She isnt even a nice and humble lady like Tonia either, but a huge diva who thinks she is all that when she really isnt. The Khorkina of figure skating without the talent, greatness, and creds to go with it.
  14. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    Three reasons:
    1. The judges (and that's a lot of judges over a lot of panels) are saying she is simply not a 6.0 quality skater, even at her best.
    2. They never found themselves in a position where they needed to give 6.0s to put her in the right placement.
    3. We never saw many 6.0s for short programs anyway. They tended to be saved for the FS.

    To me, she was always a slightly awkward skater who just didn't look as easy and effortless on her blades as skaters like Kwan. Considering the other skaters of her era, I always thought she was lucky to end up with even one World title. (I'm not saying she didn't deserve that win, but she did need others to mess up in order to get it.)
  15. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I wouldnt use others in that case though. Just one other perhaps. At the 99 Worlds Michelle Kwan was the only other skater at the event who had any hope of beating Maria the way she skated, even if the rest of the field had skated their best.

    Malinina had beaten Maria at the GPF that year but that was when she fell badly twice. It was never going to happen at Worlds with Maria landing 7 triples and getting way higher presentation marks than Malinina could dream of getting.

    Slutskaya wasnt at Worlds, and even if she was she wasnt that strong a skater with much political or momentum support in 99 even if she skated well, totally unlike the much improved and better than ever skater of 2000. She had no hope of winning Worlds that year even if she were there.
  16. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    I answered NO, because judges were favoring Slutskaya at this time. It seems they really wanted to give it to her.
    I was really happy to see that Maria Butyrskaya was 1st in the SP, it was such a special moment. Then, I'm happy Kwan finally won it, since I'm an MK fan :p
  17. butyrskafanatic

    butyrskafanatic Member

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    Even if the judges favored Slutskaya and Kwan more in your eyes, she didnt have to beat Kwan in the LP, or a good Slutskaya. She only had to beat a bad Slutskaya in the long to guarantee winning the gold. Considering she beat an excellent Slutskaya and Kwan in the short wouldnt she atleast be safe to beat a bad Slutskaya in the long had she skated well.

    Her long program marks would have had to be way lower than her short program marks to even lose to the long to Michelle as well. No skater gets lower marks for a long program than a short when they skate cleanly. And she didnt even need to do that.
  18. butyrskafanatic

    butyrskafanatic Member

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    I dont remember one. Could you show it to me.

    You seem to hate Maria and her skating. What dont you like about her skating.
  19. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Sure, you are right. But Slutskaya was clean in her 2000 Worlds LP.
    So, Maria would have to do a 7-triples LP to be 2nd in the LP, IMO. :)
  20. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    I felt Maria technically could have defended her world title after the short program. However as a Kwan fan who wanted to see her favorite win, I felt fairly confident that Maria would skate scared, skate stiff and litter her program with enough small mistakes to finish third in the long and that's exactly what happened. I was more relieved for Michelle's chances when Maria won the short instead of Irina. So yes she could have won but it wasn't at all surprising what happened happened.
  21. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    As someone else had pointed out, it wasn't the same exact question, but many of the points this question raises were discussed in this thread you created:

    http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/sho...these-results-did-Maria-deserve-in-her-career

    Since the last post of that thread occurred only a month ago, this thread seems repetitive. Especially when the original posters are the same.

    Also, you made an incredible jump in assuming I "hate" Maria. Where in my post or posts did you think that I hated Maria? As you can see in the other thread, I named a few competitions that I felt Maria should have won (namely the 2000 NHK).

    In case you didn't know, I love Maria's style even if I don't think she was the best skater. Her 17 Moments in Spring LP and Otonal from 1999 Worlds are two of my favorite performances ever. I also rooted for her to win the bronze going into SLC. I much preferred her over Slutskaya even though I think Slutskaya was a better skater overall on an objective basis.

    Perhaps you confused me with someone else.
  22. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Bute deserved the lead after the short and I would have given her a 6.0. Perhaps being the 2nd ranked Russian to Slute coming into Worlds affected that. Bute was a beautiful skater, had a beautiful program and skated smoothly for once, but I almost felt the judges gave her the lead only because both Kwan and Slute were flawed.

    Another thing - I would have had Kwan ahead of Slute in the short because to me Slute's issue with the jump combo affected her flow more than Kwan's issue with the 3flip did. Kwan's spins were unusually good that night too.

    As much as I respect Bute for going for the 3toe 1/2 loop 3sal given her age and everything, the 3sal 3toe sequence she did that previous season was probably a better choice for her. She was more consistent with it and under 6.0 it probably was worth about the same, if not only slight less, than a 3toe 1/2 loop 3sal. Her 1/2 loop was always a little awkward and 3sal labourous. And she really should have gone after a second 3loop instead of trying the 3sal again. As was, I am already ready to give her the nod over Slute but I guess the judges didn't. With an extra 3loop, the judges might be more swayed to give her the nod. Unless she landed both the 3toe 1/2 loop 3sal and 5 other triples, I think it's safe to say that Kwan was the clear winner of the free.

    So my answer is, she COULD, but probably made the wrong strategic choice for the free. Slute did land 6 triples with 2 lutzes so Bute would probably have needed 6 too.

    In my world however, Kwan would have been able to control her destiny after the short and the whole point is moot really. Bute would probably have needed all 7 triples to even have a chance in taking up Kwan in the free and even then I don't think it would happen. Kwan did a 3toe3toe and 2 lutzes.
  23. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    Another thing that colored the results of this event was that it happened during one of $peedy's never ending supply of bad rule changes: they inexplicably decided that not only was the QR maditory but counted toward the score.
  24. David21

    David21 Well-Known Member

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    That rule was already in effect in 1999 IIRC.
  25. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    I don't understand why you are so invested in the coulda, woulda, shoulda. The fact is she didn't skate well enough and the result was as it was. What do you gain by talking up a scenario where she skates clean, and the others skate how they did?