Could Cohen have finally been the dominant skater in 2007-2010 had she stayed around

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by kwanoverrated, Aug 26, 2013.

  1. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Not sure ! IMO, Baiul and Kerrigan had better basic skating, and Lu Chen was more consistent and had a better jumping technique !
    OK, I don't like Sasha's basics :p
     
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  2. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Kerrigan had better basic skating, stronger jumps, and judges actually liked her presentation (even if fans dont). However she also had no real pizzaz, so judges would have still liked Cohen more, she was even more inconsistent than Sasha ever was, and her often mediocre spins would have really stood out against Sasha`s excellent ones.

    Baiul struggled to manage a long program with 5 triples stood up, a couple of them two footed, no repeat triples other than a 2nd triple toe or salchow occasionally, and no triple-double combinations. Sasha on a bad day typically did much more content than that from 2003-2006.

    Chen was not a judges favorite in her day, especialy early on. Sasha`s spins and flexability moves would also have blown away Chen in that department, and she also had alot more pizzaz (which seem to be what makes judges notice you, the X factor, which is what Baiul benefited so much from) in her skating than young Chen had.
     
  3. KimGOAT

    KimGOAT Active Member

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    No. Not a good enough technical skater and not consistent enough. Also only skate she could have won even clean was 2008 Worlds, while there is no event she could win with her previous best World or Olympic performance (which was 2005 Worlds, still no clean). 2010 Olympics she wasnt capable of a medal of any color even with her previous best efforts.
     
  4. wonderlen

    wonderlen New Member

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    Cohen better 2A than Kim?? What are you smoking? On good day, its above average, and on bad day, its barely squeaky landed. Cohen did has better spin position, speed on spin and flexibily and best layback spin and im sure she will get equal mark/GOE. But all her jumps are very tiny not sure how much GOE would she had gotten. Plus she only do two Flip, a Flutz and repeat the 3T or 3S with no 3+3...she would have been buried in TES (at least in jumps wise).

    Even other skaters like Sarah Mier, Rochett, Kostner etc are doing 3Lz+2T+2Lo combinations regularly. I can't recall how many time Cohen did a 3 jumps combination after the code change.
     
  5. wonderlen

    wonderlen New Member

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    Even 2008 is a big 'IF'. The judges really start cracking down on 'edge call' and double wammy seriously after 2007. Assuming Cohen skate clean in SP, she would still get dinged -GOE for her Lutz, if one of her Flip or Lutz got <, that almost pretty much will wipe out the total value. LP, there is a deduction for her Flutz, plus she only do easier triple as repeat and landing 6 clean triples....we will never know.
     
  6. wonderlen

    wonderlen New Member

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    Even 2008 is a big 'IF'. The judges really start cracking down on 'edge call' and double wammy seriously after 2007. Assuming Cohen skate clean in SP, she would still get dinged -GOE for her Lutz, if one of her Flip or Lutz got <, that almost pretty much will wipe out the total value. LP, there is a deduction for her Flutz, plus she only do easier triple as repeat and landing 6 clean triples....we will never know.
     
  7. KimGOAT

    KimGOAT Active Member

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    True. Cohen's tiny, flutzed, and underrotated jumps would begin to get compared post 2006 when they tightened the screws for wrong jump technique, while letting loose on the GOE for those with great jumps (eg- Kim, Rochette, Kostner). A single jump without a fall or obvious error from Kim and Cohen would probably be about 3 points difference per jump by then.
     
  8. cbd1235

    cbd1235 Active Member

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    Unfortunately with a track record of choking in Freeskates (I promise I'm not a hater) she would never have been a dominant skater. She had previously dominated the Short Program but even her best short programs would have been surpassed by the likes of Yuna and Mao.
     
  9. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    Are you Cohen's psychologist? How do you know any of this?
     
  10. giselle23

    giselle23 Active Member

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    I have seen Sasha skate live (in 2005) and did not notice that she was particularly fast. She had many opportunities to win the big prizes, but always faltered. 2006 Worlds is perhaps the best example--reigning Olympic silver medalist and US Champion, no Kwan, Slutskaya or Arakawa. The title was hers to lose, and lose it she did. Sasha was a beautiful skater whose influence is still being felt--see some of the young Russian skaters and even Yu Na, with her I-spin. But she was not a good competitor. That her talents took her as far as they did despite her weaknesses, is itself impressive.
     
  11. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

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    I think she could have dominated US Nationals, but internationally if your only "competition" Fumie, and you have a huge lead in the short program yet you manage to get beat by newcomer Kimmie Meissner of all people...it ain't ever happening sister.
     
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  12. bek

    bek Guest

    Sasha couldn't even beat Baby Mao! There's a reason, she hightailed it of there after the Olympics.

    I think the judges were more than ready for new blood
     
  13. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Who knows what the judges were thinking. We can only guess since all the veterans retired after 2006. Not surprising as all of them bar Cohen were holdovers from 2002 and even 1998. That is what makes Cohen the only intriguing case, as she is the only one out of Slutskaya, Kwan, Arakawa, Hughes, Suguri, Sokolova, who could have realistically continued and "maybe" contended.

    The veterans from 2010 all stayed around, and people were predicting the judges would be ready to anoint the baby Russians over them in a few years time, yet the veterans from 2010 are still completely dominant, and seemingly only some splats can keep from an all veteran podium.
     
  14. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

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    I think most people figured after the 2010 Olympics that with Mao struggling and Kostner not able to get it together that the new kids would be ready to take over. Problem is they were to young to even be at Worlds until the season before the Olympics. Add to that with Kim coming back Mao getting back on form and Kostner suddenly figuring out how to compete and the Russian girls not being as good as the hype and the podium mostly looks like Vancouver with Kostner replacing Rochette.
     
  15. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    As it was, Cohen took three FS ordinals from Arakawa, which Kwan then proceeded to take plus another one, for a 4-5 split.

    Skaters and coaches have said that after the Olympics, there's often nothing left in the tank. This must be particularly true after figures pretty much meant a battle at most between the Olympics gold and silver medalists for the World title the same year.

    For example, from 1948-1988, one gold medalists, Jeannette Altwegg (1948, knee injury, per Wiki) and one silver medalist, Rosalyn Sumners (1984) went pro and didn't compete at the subsequent Worlds, with 1952 silver medalist Tenley Albright withdrawing from 1952 Worlds, compared to four of six gold medalists and one silver medalist between 1992 and 2010. They competed at the subsequent Worlds before turning pro, despite the upside of finally being able to earn money at it, which would kill their eligibility.

    From 1948-1988, the World and Olympic podiums comprised the same three women seven times, although, in some years, the gold and silver or silver and bronze flipped. 1952 and 1984 were the anomalies, with Altwegg going pro and Albright having to withdraw, but even in 1984, Olympic bronze medalist Ivanova lost to Zayak based on the FS tiebreaker.

    There was more movement from 1992-2006, and especially in 2006, where two of the medalists didn't compete. It's hard to imagine the pressure on all of the Ladies who were "supposed" to win or medal with a wide-open field, when so many of them were wiped mentally.
     
  16. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    There are 3 judges who put Arakawa behind both Kwan and Cohen in the LP at the 2004 Worlds? Pretty terrible judging from almost half the panel when her LP was clearly the best. Just behind Kwan I could see as reasonable (although I definitely wouldnt have), and behind only a poor Cohen would be even worse, and putting behind both is crazy.

    In that case a clean Sasha was definitely winning there, deserved or not. I am not surprised either, Sasha was light years ahead of Shizuka in rep power at that point, despite not having won a World medal yet herself. We see the difference in how they were scored vs each other by 2006 when their rep power was now similar.
     
  17. KimGOAT

    KimGOAT Active Member

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    I know she wouldn't have done it probably based on her history but if she always skated cleanly with what she had planned what events from 2002-2009 was Cohen capable of winning or what were the chances for each.

    2002 Olympics
    2003 Nationals
    2003 Worlds
    2004 Nationals
    2004 Worlds
    2006 Olympics
    2007 Worlds
    2008 Worlds
    2009 Worlds

    Those are the ones I am thinking.
     
  18. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Are we talking if she did everything she planned but everyone else skated the same way?

    Then,

    2002 Olympics - I can see argued as Cohen was preferred over Hughes. With a 3 Flutz/3 Toe, that might have been enough to overtake Hughes's two 3/3s. However, I see it closer than what it was in the SP.

    2003 Nationals - I don't know. Was she planning a 3/3? I think everything was with Kwan at that competition.

    2003 Worlds - Cohen did skate cleanly during the QR and came in third behind Kwan and Sokolova.

    2004 Nationals - I can see the case for this as she did get a 6.0 for a fall. However, the reception after Kwan's performance may have been too much to resist.

    2004 Worlds - Definitely, especially with Kwan being so behind and not skating as well as she did at Nationals. Also, Cohen had more content than Kwan and her basic skating definitely improved from the previous year. However, would she have overtaken Arakawa's two 3/3s and superior basic skating? Arakawa also had spins that while not on the level of Cohen's, wasn't nearly that far behind.

    2006 Olympics - Yes.

    2007 Worlds - I don't know. I'd like to think so, but then we don't know what her planned content would have been as she didn't compete this season.

    2008 Worlds - See 2007 Worlds except that the code changes would have been much harder on Cohen's jump technique and she wouldn't have the same spin advantage with her competition doing high level spins and having one less spin to count in the LP score.

    2009 Worlds - Against Yu Na Kim's performance? See 2008 Worlds COP changes for reasons why it would have been difficult for Cohen. She may have overtaken Rochette and Ando, but Rochette had no real COP weaknesses to deduct her for, and Ando scored well.
     
  19. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Although it isnt certain I suspect a clean Cohen wasnt winning the 2002 Olympics. Her LP marks were very low as it was for only 1 mistake.

    2003 Nationals and Worlds she had a triple lutz lutz-triple toe planned and that would have pushed her over Kwan if she did it and all else cleanly. After all Sokolova who isnt half the skater Cohen is took judges off Kwan each round due to her triple lutz-triple toe, so Cohen with that completed and with a clean short would almost have to be placed on top. In the Q round at Worlds she left the triple lutz-triple toe out and the judges placed her behind Kwan and Elena's 3-3s but otherwise garbage skating. She was probably neven beating kwan that year without a 3-3 but she did have it and landed it in several performances, but always missed other things after.

    2004 Nationals and Worlds the judges would have likely gone with her had she gone clean, whether she deserved to or not. She might have deserved to beat Kwan at Nationals going clean, but definitely not Shizuka with her numerous 3-3s and great overall program at Worlds, but the judges would have gone with her anyway. That was clear by the scores, Sasha's poor skate with many shaky jumps, omited combinations, and a big miss near the end, still took 3 judges of the 9 counting judging off Shizuka in the LP. Shizuka remember was a nobody before the 2004 Worlds and that is something that matters alot in the sport under 6.0.

    2005 Nationals, 2006 Olympics, and 2006 Worlds were all hers to win easily and she blew each in emphatic and splattacular fashion, although the 2006 Olympics one can say that if all of the top 3 had skated their best Sasha probably would have finished only 3rd anyway (higher than the 2nd she actually did with 2 falls).

    2007 Worlds she was never beating Miki Ando's spectacular technical performances in all likelihood although at her hypothetical best she is capable of a mid 60s short and mid 120s long so it could have been close, but probably a close 3rd behind Ando and Asada (who botched the short costing her gold to Ando, but blew Ando and all others away in her spectacular Lp to nearly come from way behind to win).

    2008 Worlds she was winning if clean since it was a poor event.

    2009 Worlds she was probably 4th or 5th even clean, and even if she could somehow come 2nd she had 0% chance to beat Kim there even if she went clean.
     
  20. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

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    I agree. 2005 worlds is also interesting because Slutskaya was great there. Cohen skated her best ever LP in alot of ways there, but I'm not sure she had enough to beat clean Slutskaya on home turf.
     
  21. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I cant imagine Slutskaya was ever losing those Worlds as long as she did something halfway credible, no matter how everyone else skated. The short program pretty much confirmed that. She had all the momentum, was coming in off her most dominant season ever, was on home ice, and was the huge sentimental favorite coming back from illness, and having been runner up at so many previous Worlds and Olympics. That she happened to skate a great LP just made it more of a lock.

    It was something like the 2003 Worlds,which was a lovefest for Kwan in the US more than an actual competition. 2005 worlds was a lovefest/coronation for Slutskaya in Russia moreso than an actual competition taking place (note I am not implying either didnt deserve to win in the end). It was the wrong place for Sasha to finally stand on her feet for a whole program, if she only had one in her.