Coughlin/ Denney This Season

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by aftershocks, Sep 27, 2011.

  1. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    I've seen their sp from this summer. Are there any vids posted of their sp/ lp at Nebelhorn?

    What's the verdict so far? Seems they are being promoted for the top spot at Nationals since both have been past champions and their pairing is fully supported and deemed promising/ a success.

    I am pulling more for Evora/ Ladwig, and I also hope to see Marley/ Brubaker continue to develop and become more competitive.
  2. haribobo

    haribobo Well-Known Member

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    They have achieved good results due to good training and solid jumping skills. Not because they are being promoted as past champions. However you like them personally or artistically, you cannot deny that they have their act together jump-wise, and their presentation while not the best is fine for this stage. I don't like their music choices this year but I am not going to be upset if they zoom to the top of US pairs because they obviously have worked very hard and don't need to spend years toiling away mid-pack at US Nationals just because they are new.

    My favorite 3 US pairs are Evora/Ladwig, Castelli/Shnapir, and Donlan/Speroff, and I'd absolutely love to see them bring the jumps and win everything. But I have to be realistic that other outcomes are likely and I can't be mad at all the other teams who manage to skate better.
  3. iris81

    iris81 New Member

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  4. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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  5. reese

    reese Well-Known Member

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    All the lifts are atrocious, especially the pole dancing one to finish. The program is awful, there's no choreography, and it feels like it lasts 15 minutes. SUCH a step backwards for John after his gorgeous, stylish programs with Yankowskas last year. :wall:
  6. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    I see the critics' points, although I'm trying to be positive. To me, it looked like they were attacking the LP and had speed [again, hard to judge speed]. Also, it looked like he had more extension than in the past
  7. haribobo

    haribobo Well-Known Member

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    They need a real choreographer in Colorado Springs. This has been a problem since the beginning. Even Ave Maria wasn't that great of a program, but Caitlin was a star and she made it look nice. If only Dalilah could find a choreographer at least half as good as the Boston teams or Shanti...there has never been much originality in those CO programs, its really unfortunate.
  8. reese

    reese Well-Known Member

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    Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Marina Zoueva choreograph this LP for Denney/Coughlin? If so, she clearly didn't put more than 15 minutes of work into it. I know the great Dalilah herself choreographed the horrid East of Eden short, but I seem to remember Denney/Coughlin going out to Detroit earlier this year to get this LP?

    Marina did choreograph Ava Maria for Yankowskas/Coughlin.

    ETA: Yes, in this fluff article they mention Zoueva choreographing their LP for this season.
  9. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Marina Zoueva choreographed "Ave Maria" last season and she choreographed D/C's FS (I think "Nessun Dorma" was selected for her, though). I think their "East of Eden" SP (despite the music cuts) is the better program for them this season. I hope we'll get to see a video of their Nebelhorn version since that's what won them the bronze medal in their international debut.
  10. my little pony

    my little pony snarking for AZE

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    it's pretty awkward. i reminds me of something from the human centipede movies.
  11. shan

    shan Well-Known Member

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    V/T do that lift too. Blech...
  12. casken

    casken Well-Known Member

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    That lift would be good if her back more upright, and the leg on the catch foot was stretched and held higher.

    Right now she's hunched over and straining to catch the foot. V&T's version is slightly better, but still with similar issues. I think you need to have Cohen like flexibility to make that type of lift look good.
  13. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    Question [more like pontificating] -

    I don't understand why a pair like this, who are pretty solid on all the big tricks - big 3twist, nice-sized throw 3z and 3l, SBS triples and double axels, big lifts, etc. - wouldn't then be able to spend a lot of time working on the finer points of beautiful skating, such as toe point, leg extension, back position, learning about relation to the music, even appropriate facial expressions. Proper mastery of the first few I mentioned would improve their GOE on several elements and lead to a jump in their scores. It seems not to be a tall task like learning a jump.

    And will it ever happen? I didn't see Caydee improving in these areas while with Jeremy. Nor did I see John improving with Caitlin.

    Is it all innate, or can it be learned?
  14. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    I've seen John make small but noticeable improvements in his line/extension during his time with Caitlin (her carriage/line/extension are so good that he HAD to work hard to improve his form from mediocre to just average ;)) -- many fans just didn't pay attention to them in their first 3 seasons because they weren't that consistent until their last season together.

    I think Caydee and John are planning to work on "finer points of beautiful skating" but it will take time and much effort by both of them because neither are naturally graceful or musical skaters. I already can see Caydee making small but noticeable improvements in some of her positions so far (I agree that her lift positions still need a lot of work).
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2011
  15. haribobo

    haribobo Well-Known Member

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    Well they've been together since, what, May? June? I can understand if they don't have the most riveting presentation at this point. I think they can surely improve in these areas with time and work, maybe with some dance and ballet classes. I don't think Caydee is ever gonna be a Gretchen Donlan or Marissa Castelli who IMO have better presentation than a lot of our top senior ladies. But can she improve her dance abilities and positioning in the lifts? Yes, I really don't see why not. (sorry if I'm parroting Sylvia, we were posting at the same time)
  16. shan

    shan Well-Known Member

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    I question the style choice in their music and choreography. To me it emphasizes the deficiencies in their presentation. It would have been nice to see them have a different style for at least one of their programs.
  17. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for posting the link! They seem competent, but boring. I'd like to see much more excitement and energy. Sure they are working hard and not resting on their laurels as past champions with separate partners. Still, that cred is definitely an asset for them and is/has been/ will continue to be used to promote them.

    I admit being more in love with Evora/ Ladwig (energy, exciting lifts, unison, dedication to each other as a team, love for the sport, work ethic). E/L at 2010 Olympics were truly inspiring.

    D/C could possibly win me over if they were able to find and develop their own unique style with great music and choreo -- refine their technique and positions without falling back on the safe, classic Russian style of skating. I liked Denney's verve, confidence and flair when she first hit the scene -- yes, she's needed help with lines, maturity and technique, but why lose everything else that makes her sing as a skater? Ah well, that's figure skating ... conformity and political correctness is always the safest path, but not necessarily the groundbreaking, uplifting, magical moments trajectory.
  18. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    The problem is that skaters and coaches seem to think that in order to demonstrate their growth in lines and musicality they have to skate to slow, boring music like Turandot, Rhapsody in Blue, Meditations, etc. I mean those music are classisc but they're so overused and they're slow.
  19. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    I somewhat agree with this and forgot to mention it. Bombastic movie and opera music is NOT good for them because it requires dramatic flair that are not necessarily part of their on-ice personalities

    But, East of Eden is good music for them [as it is IMO for Rachael Flatt]. I think this type of soft yet potent music can 'carry' them through any artistic deficiencies. They don't have to emote or stretch too much to convey the music
  20. shan

    shan Well-Known Member

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    Okay fair enough, but I wish they had paired this SP w/ something more dynamic in the LP. (Maybe dynamic isn't the right word.)
  21. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Tend to agree with previous points made by orbitz and olympic. I might enjoy D/C more if they could find the right music and choreo that suits them and accentuates their strengths, which is not easy to do. Agree that they should have thought about varying the musical style and approach for their lp -- the sp is okay -- trying to do something similar in the lp does tend to highlight their deficiencies.

    I'm thinking of a brother/ sister team who made a great splash at Nats one year with some exciting, dramatic music and choreo that worked wonders for them -- can't remember their names or title of their music, alas.
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2011
  22. shan

    shan Well-Known Member

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  23. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    Very true
  24. skatemommy

    skatemommy Well-Known Member

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    Ginger and Archie Tse? That's going back a few years.
  25. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Ah, yes, thanks shan! It is the Hartsells I was thinking of -- Thanks for posting those vids. Perfect examples of finding the right music and choreo to accentuate your strengths. Skating, scoring, choreo, competition challenges maybe weren't quite as difficult then, but still the Hartsells in their dream season is a perfect example of improving by accentuating your strengths as a pair.
  26. shan

    shan Well-Known Member

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    Not to make the thread drift, but while the Hartsells were never my favorite pair, they had speed and attack that some teams are lacking.
  27. robinhood

    robinhood Active Member

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    ;);)

    I can't understand why would John ditch Caitlin for Denney if they're going to continue in the same lyrical snot style:D he had with Yankowkas:confused:

    I mean, the comparisons are horrible but inevitable and with this new pair I'd have expect there was at least a void potential, if not going through a different route than the classical/lyrical stereotypical pairs stuff. There are too many international pairs much better than them in this department, imo:dog:
  28. Rob

    Rob Beach Bum

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    Yes, I thought they'd do a movie score or something bombastic and fast. I thought the whole point was to be an athletic pair, not lyrical classical wannabes when they are not. Hmm.
  29. UMBS Go Blue

    UMBS Go Blue KWEEN 2016! YES WE KWAN!

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    EYS! Is Tom Dickson still there, gone into early retirement, or simply been hit-and-miss lately with his programs? He did some great work with Savoie, Abbott, and others. :watch:
  30. shan

    shan Well-Known Member

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    :swoon: Tom Dickson. I loved the FDs he choreographed for Summersett/Gilles. Has he ever choreographed for pairs?
  31. VALuvsMKwan

    VALuvsMKwan Wandering Goy

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    I think that the expert commentators in this thread (and many others - see below) should elect a committee, get contact information for coaches and choreographers, and present all your findings and recommendations to them.

    Our pairs (and in other threads, other skaters) would become miraculously better in a very short time if that happened, would they not? No? I don't understand... ;)

    (BTW, this isn't the only thread in which I've been tempted to post something similar to this. It seems that most posters who offer extensive criticism and suggestions to all sorts of skaters must really be in the wrong profession).
  32. PDilemma

    PDilemma Well-Known Member

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    If no one had an opinion, FSU would be a very boring. If everyone was posting smiling smilies and saying how great all the skaters are all the time...the place would have shut down long ago.
  33. skatemommy

    skatemommy Well-Known Member

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    I agree this team screams "Epic Movie Soundtrack" from some action type flick. Get rid of the schoolteacher bun on Caitlyn and bring back the shag. I too thought they would go for a different look than the slow, classical boring stuff that does not showcase their strengths but emphasizes what isn't there.
    Rob and (deleted member) like this.
  34. haribobo

    haribobo Well-Known Member

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    :respec:

    Sorry, but its pretty obvious when all the programs coming out of one training area are bland vs. all the programs coming from another are quite good, clearly the problem is not the skaters. There's nothing wrong with those who want to offer suggestions to improve. Maybe those with a problem with such discussion can start another forum where everyone gives technical reports and praise only.
  35. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    I have no doubt in my mind that skaters troll message boards trying to get information on themselves or on other skaters. Just to see what people on here think of them, warts and all. Maybe they listen and maybe they don't.
  36. VALuvsMKwan

    VALuvsMKwan Wandering Goy

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    I hope you noticed the ;) in my post. OF COURSE people post opinions here, and I, least of all people, am not saying that nothing but praise and idolatry should be posted - far from it. That's isn't my point at all.

    My point is that most everyone here (here meaning in competition, practice watching, whatever type of threads) provide very specific suggestions for improvements in all areas from choreography to costuming to jump selection/layout, COP friendlness, etc. I am actually very impressed with the suggestions.

    But here is my real question, and I am quite serious in asking it - why is it that the "armchair" posters (no disrespect intended) seem to be so much more knowledgeable about such things, and able to provide such a volume of seemingly logical suggestions, that the professionals in coaching and choreography and actual skating are coming up with on their own?

    I was only half-joking when I commented that many posters seem to be in the wrong profession. It seems to me that some of you could do far more competent jobs than the "professionals".
  37. haribobo

    haribobo Well-Known Member

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    Distance and the ability to provide objective analysis. This is not to say that the people here across the board are always right or better than those doing it or anything like that. But at times they are. And when you throw money and personal relationships and location and other priorities in the mix, things get muddied, and its not always possible for skaters to seek other choreographers and ballet classes and all those things. As fans of skating who have seen a lot, if someone asks, what can skater X do to improve, many FSUers can provide solid advice. And skating parents and coaches totally run the gamut from extremely educated to quite ignorant about the history of skating. Some coaches are in it more to pass on a lifelong love of the sport and others probably a bit more for the financial aspect so you get all kinds of stuff going on with their students and then each pupil picks things up differently also. Some coaches have had successful technical skaters with lacking presentation, but the skaters stay with the coach because of convenience and good results. So what can you do? I just think we have to hope that skaters will eventually do what is best for them and some will improve and others won't and that's much of the reason why the sport is so fascinating to watch unfold every season.
    VALuvsMKwan and (deleted member) like this.
  38. hlp728

    hlp728 Active Member

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    I totally agree that Denney/Coughlin are better suited for Epic/Action/Suspense Movie or game soundtracks. It seemed like they tried micro-baby steps in their FD by picking a guitar version of that song.

    If I was in charge of them, my choice would be things like Battlestar Galactica (Kara remembers theme start at 1:20 to hear the drama), Hanna/Tron soundtracks, Mortal Kombat, Alien, Terminator. I would even suggest dark/horror movie soundtracks too like Rosemary's Baby, The Crow, etc.
  39. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Respect on the elements but they can't really skate (in the basic skating sense), they still move in a rather truck-driverish fashion and their choreography couldn't be more basic.

    Seeing the PCS they are getting is making my blood boil.
  40. LilJen

    LilJen Well-Known Member

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    I could live without the electric guitar Nessun Dorma. Strangest instrument ever to take up the melody. . .

    They should totally do a Matrix program or something. She could get the shag haircut back and just goop it up a la Trinity. :)