Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Vash01, Jul 14, 2013.
I‘d pick 3 skaters who left best artistic impacts on me.
Curry, Lambiel, Cousins
Are you talking about "The music of the night" ?
Kurt puts a lot of emphasis on the footwork and he's an absolute master, but I don't feel that the best programs from the current top pros (IMO) like Lambiel and Buttle are anything less or anything trivial. They may not put as much focus on the footwork per se but there is still a decent amount and the programs are complex (with moves that involve real mastery of the blades), musical and well thought out / constructed. You don't need a program to be filled with footwork for it to be a masterpiece. Lambiel, in particular, uses his entire body freely to express the music and the different themes which I find pretty unrivaled.
I agree completely, and I couldn't have said that better myself.
The way I see my post about Kurt, I didn't imply any criticism of or disdain for any form of expression in figure skating, I just wanted to point out why Browning's pro skating is so special to me. However, I have this disquieting feeling that I ruffled some feathers here.
I love so many of them - Kurt, Rudy, Scott, Todd, etc., but I voted for Viktor Petrenko.
I always loved this program in particular:
I find it pretty amusing that Alexei Yagudin has 13 votes (3 more votes than Ilia Kulik). Hasn't he literally been skating the same program since like 2004?
I understood that, but the word "basic" caught my attention. As I already said, I can mostly agree about footwork, but not overall - at least not about all of the mentioned skaters. But it's true that you wrote "most of the other pro men on the list", not "all of the". You just didn't specify who are those "most of the" in your opinion, and who are the few you deem to be okay, leaving us guessing .
Your phrase "if you don't believe me" also struck me as quite strange, since no one had expressed any doubt about Kurt's genius footwork, and he has by far the most votes in this poll.
Anyway, what does "ruffled some feathers" mean? Hopefully not some kind of an insinuation? To be clear, yes, Stephane is my favorite skater. From the current skaters (meaning, those who are still skating regularly), Kurt is definitely my second favorite, but I haven't decided whether I prefer John Curry and Robin Cousins over him if we are talking about male skaters of all times. Jeffrey is my forth favorite current skater (Daisuke being the third).
In his career he has achieved more than just putting on solo performances: now he acts in musical and dramatic ice shows and is getting more and more success in these.
I don't understand - are you rolling your eyes at people choosing other skaters over Yagudin? I personally know of his career in ice shows. I also have seen some of Yagudin's skating in those shows. Suffice it to say that I didn't like it so much that it would make me think of him as of the best professional skater. Yagudin's acting was okay, although not great, costumes were interesting if debatable, the choreography was nothing special in my opinion, and his skating also was merely okay (imho) just because there was not that much to skate. Here you have one of my (several) reasons for not choosing Yagudin.
What's wrong with the icon? Is that very offensive or something? Are you so sure she's rolling her eyes for that exact reason? To be honest, when I read her post I didn't even notice that facial expression.
As far as your opinion about Yagudin's skating, I don't agree with that his skating was merely ok, his skating skills might not be the best of the best in the world, but definitely could be called very good. Robin Cousin was once asked who he wanted to do choreography for, he named Yagudin and Sasha Cohen, in his opinion, they both had such musicality and a good understanding of what the blade could be used for.
And also Scott Hamilton in this video, 2006 IceWars
Although I feel it's a shame he only mentioned Plushenko, did not mention any other skaters such as Lambiel or Buttle.
Someone already posted some of his programs, here's another I also like, and it's amazing he could still skate like that with only half his own hip.
Alexey Yagudin - Gala Show January 2009, his Bumbarash program, it's a Russian song, I don't understand a word, I simply like the way he skated like a free soul on the ice.
Having said all that, I did not mean to persuad other people to vote for Yagudin since I did not vote myself, or ask you to change your opinion. I mean it's lucky people have different opinions, just like I don't care that much about Lambiel. I know he's a good skater, but such statement
is pretty laughable. He's unrivaled among all those great pro skaters such as John Curry, Robin Cousins, Viktor Petrenko, seriously? He's not that unrivaled artistically even compared with those skaters competed at the same time, such as Buttle, Emanuel Sandhu, Matt Sovie.
Once again I feel only those skaters who combined with both athletic and artistic talents are really rare. Good Pro skaters, without the technical pressure, are just too many. That's the reason I did not even bother to vote. However, my favorite pro skaters are Robin Cousins, Viktor Petrenko, Alexei Yagudin.... so far, studying more LOL.
I am not sure, that's why I was asking.
Did you even read properly what I wrote, and Olesh's post to which I responded? I said nothing about Yagudin's skating skills and his artistry in general. I was talking about those particular "musical and dramatic" ice shows that Olesh mentioned. It is not Yagudin's fault that the choreography in those shows is not always that great, and that there is not much to skate in them. There was a time when I really liked Yagudin's competitive skating and some of his show programs as well, and was even a bit obsessed, but then I fell absolutely in love with Lambiel. I still like Yagudin's skating and those programs, and I respect him a lot. But his current professional skating doesn't impress and excite me that much anymore, that is all.
I agree that Lambiel is not unrivaled. Especially John Curry and Robin Cousins had qualities that Lambiel doesn't have. But they, in turn, didn't have something that he has. They are just different. As for Petrenko, Savoie and Sandhu, from what I have seen I wouldn't say that they are better than Lambiel. Although I must admit that I've seen very little of Petrenko's skating. Savoie doesn't seem to have Lambiel's versatility, nor his artistic mind. So far I have seen just beautiful lines and nice musicality. As for Sandhu, I have seen both really interesting things from him, as well as some mediocre programs (I mean his show programs) - at least in my opinion. Of course, almost everyone has those mediocre programs, but Sandhu's version of mediocre is just less likable to me than some other skater's version of mediocre. Buttle is a great professional skater in my opinion - very close to Lambiel, but not better (imho).
Also, don't forget that this thread is about professional skating, not about programs and/or medals that skaters had when they competed in amateur competitions.
Once there was a time when there were many good professional skaters, although not that many outstanding ones. Unfortunately, that time is gone. Now there is just a handful of good professional skaters, and just a few really great ones. Among male skaters there are only three, perhaps six at most, depending on your opinion - Browning, Lambiel, Buttle, then Kulik, Yagudin, probably Shawn Sawyer. Sandhu doesn't skate that much anymore, at least not in well known shows.
No! I'm not! This smile doesn't mean anything than 'In My Humble Opinion'.
I agree with unicorn: ' I simply like the way he skated like a free soul on the ice' or like a rebellious soul on the ice... I like his profound skating. Perhaps more profound than it was in the sport.
Besides my English is not very good to explain all nuances.
And I can't choose correct smile. I'm sorry.
What's laughable is Scott Hamilton's comment naming Yagudin alongside Browning as skaters with the best footwork and you ignorantly believing it. Sorry, he was a great athlete, but his footwork was simplistic and repetitive. Many skater would be able to put a stamp on footwork before he can, much less be compared to Browning. And what memorable pro program has he skated since 2003?
I realize artistry is subjective. And read again the part you that you quoted me. I said "I find the way Lambiel uses his entire body to express music and different themes unrivaled". That's a lot different and much more specific than making a generic statement like "he is the most artistic". And I do find him unrivaled in terms of freeness of expression and musicality. The only skater that I've been equally impressed with in that regard is Toller Cranston. I always found Curry a bit too tame and proper in his expression despite the balletic elegance. So don't get so worked up, read posts carefully before you reply to them.
I am glad that Brian Orser got a few votes, I really liked his Somewhere in Time program. I'm also glad for Paul Wylie because I thought his Schindler's List was a terrific routine.
I don't think I read your post unproperly. Maybe you should ask yourself if you expressed youself properly? I don't think there's anything wrong with Olesh's post. She simply posted her opion, didn't offend any other skaters, didn't ask anyone to vote. It's a poll, people can use any criteria to vote, some people count the pro titles, some appreciate certain styles more. Yagudin has been involved in numerous pro ice projects, skated for SOI, and then continued successfully in Russia, skated solely, in pair and in big ice dramas. And his style is so different from his amateur career which I think is great. No body can predict how much longer he will skate, but his pro career is very successful so far. So some people use that as a reason to vote, why can't they? You acted like you were afraid that people would vote for other skaters, no no, don't vote for him for that blahblahblah. If you ask me, I feel all Lambiel's programs look same too, he's good, but if all skaters skate like him, pro skating world would be boring to death.
And I don't agree with your opnion about those Russian ice shows either, it's easily understandable that those proprams were relatively simple considering they skated with non-professionals, and they had to think of a new program once a week. Still they produced lots of interesting programs. Thanks to that, now the pro skating market in Russia is among the bests in the world.
Someone is talking about amateur competitions or medals here?
As far as I understand, this poll is about "who is the best male pro skater?", not about "who is the best male pro skater currently?"
First of all, his footwork was not simplistic and repetitive. His changing from toe to edges, from edges to toe work kind of footwork, actually is very difficult footwork. Second of all, the simple footwork can be difficult depends on the speed, body positions and degree of flow. Last but not the least, it's not that I believe Scott Hamilton or what, I simply post some different opinions to balance some bitchy talking a little bit. And if you want, I have more, such as our dear picky picky uncle Dick Button. Those are the experts of the experts, masters of the masters. Don't worry about how much I will get worked up, I don't even need to talk myself, I simply quote quote and quote, that's super effective productive discussions, I'd be very pleased to do that.
Just out of curiosity, you seemed so obsessed with this idea, "toe work? ok, easy, one-foot skating, difficult". Can you just put down your never-miss-a-chance-to-bitch-about-Yagudin attitude for a moment, do you really think all those level 3 or 4 footworks are really difficult if all skaters can execute? Even some can-merely-walk on-ice skaters?
I don't think this sentence is any different from the sentence I quoted last time. Thanks for giving me a chance to laugh again.
And what is so unclear about this (please read more carefully this time):
I think from my first few sentences it's pretty clear that I am talking about the particular ice shows, not Yagudin's skating and artistry in general. So, obviously you didn't read my post properly.
I didn't see anything wrong with Olesh's post either. It was the eye rolling icon that seemed strange to me. As it turned out, Olesh had meant it in a different way, probably not realizing the generally accepted meaning. But I couldn't know that, could I?
I was not trying to convince anyone not to vote for Yagudin. I only explained why I don't feel like voting for him just because of those particular ice shows.
I don't think that you have watched a lot of his programs. Probably just a few. Because Lambiel has programs in at least several different styles (I could say "many", but I don't want to exaggerate) - musically, choreographically, and in terms of expression. I suggest that you go back to page 1 of this thread, and take a look at the videos that reut and I posted there. Of course, you are not obliged to do that, but then you can't form and express such general opinions about programs that you most likely haven't even seen. Or you could at least say that your opinion is based on very little (yes, like I did when talking about other professional skaters). But if you really have watched a lot of Lambiel's programs, and found them to be all the same, then I am very interested to know in what ways exactly did they seem the same to you.
Anyway, professional skating would be boring indeed if all the professional skaters skated in the same way - although Lambiel's repertoire is quite varied . And, in truth, I can't imagine anyone skating exactly in the same way as he skates.
I didn't express any opinion about the shows where Yagudin and others skaters skated with non-professionlas. It was only about the "musical and dramatic" shows that Olesh mentioned - I think she was talking about those theatre on ice type shows that Averbukh also produces, not about the TV shows.
In fact, I don't even think that the programs in those TV shows were that simple. They were simpler in terms of skating, but not simple in terms of choreography. I must say that admire how those people (Averbukh an his second choreographer, Zhulin and Orshulyak, as well as the skaters themselves) could come up with so many different ideas in such a short time.
I also agree that Yagudin has performed really well in those TV shows, he just couldn't fully show himself as a singles skater there. What has made me a bit disappointed is that his recent show programs/performances were he skates as a singles skater (which he originally is) excite me less than his programs in those TV shows. It shouldn't be like this, in my opinion. I guess that is why I can think of Yagudin only as of a good professional skater, but not as a great one. It is subjective, of course, but that's how I feel.
No, not directly. It just seemed to me like you probably were thinking also about Yagudin's past performances in competitive skating, so I decided to remind you that this poll and thread is only about professional skating. Perhaps I was wrong.
I know that this poll is about the best professional skaters of all times, not just about the current pro skaters. But do you mean to tell me that because of that I can't write about the current situation in professional skating here? I've been a member of this forum for some time now, so I know that people here often write about things that have much less to do with the original topic of the thread than the current professional skaters have to do with professional skaters of all times .
I would totally understand if someone stated that they found Yagudin's footwork more exciting or spectacular than the footwork of many other men in the business or that they thought his footwork was more difficult than that of the skaters in his era but thinking that his steps would be somewhere close in complexity to what we've seen in figure skating since the CoP was introduced is delusion, sorry to say this. Yagudin competed under CoP at Japan Open 2007 where he skated his Gladiator program and got level 1 on both step sequences - as opposed to level 3s for Jeffrey Buttle. Which just goes to show that level 3 or 4 might not be that easy to get after all and obviously impossible to get with footwork from 2001.
Me neither and really beats me why he/she got such an aggressive reply. Olesh didn't ask anyone to vote for Yagudin, he/she never tried to push his/her favorite pro skater on the rest of the people who come to this thread and never bashed those who voted for any other skater by "Oh God, how could skater X get more votes than skater Y, it's laughable." So perhaps it's not Olesh the bad guy in this story?
And who is the bad guy then? Me? Just because of this?
I just expressed my opinion on those particular ice shows and on what Yagudin did in them. What is so agressive about that? Probably I overreacted because I understood Olesh's icon wrongly (I would not have written that if the eye roll icon hadn't been there). But to call that agressive - I have read many much more agressive posts on this forum. I was not even trying to convince anyone not to vote for Yagudin, just explaining my own personal reasons for not voting for him (in my further posts in response to unicorn, since this particular post was not about Yagudins professional skating in general). Is that so unclear? And if you think that I bashed anyone for not voting for Browning, Lambiel, Cousins and/or Curry ("Other"), and with such statements like you quoted to boot, then you have confused me with someone else. So, I really hope that you didn't mean me.
As for pushing my favorite skaters on the rest of the people - if that's how you call posting videos of my favorite skater (which I didn't intend to do before reut posted her links to videos), and trying to defend him and his programs against someone who thinks that they are "all the same", then, yes, probably I was pushing my favorite skater on others. Although I don't view it like that.
To conclude all of this, I don't think that there is a "bad guy" in this "story".
Eh, I don't argue over the Internet. Peace.
Boitano had a very entertaining number where he was dancing with a hat rack but I can't remember the event or the title of the program.
It's probably unfair to vote for any of the men on the list before making sure that you watched most of the programs each of them skated. Which I have to admit I did not.
The footwork sequences skaters currently doing are more complex of course, it's insane if I deny it. But actually all top skaters were still doing level 1 or level 2 footwork at 2005 WC and EC, Plushenko, Lambiel, Buttle, Joubert, no exception, it's been 3 years since CoP was introduced. And then almost all skaters started to get level 3 the following season.
And I didn't say that Yagudin's footwork sequence level is close to the level 3 or 4 level now. Whose footwork under 6.0 can be compared to CoP? Kurt Browning's? I mean if all the skaters today can perform level 3 or 4 footwork sequence, even some skaters with mediocre SS, is that really difficult? Besides, it's hard to judge the difficulty level under different era. It's like doing jumps, compare the time when Stojko started landing single Quad randomly in competitions with later more guys started landing 2 Quads. Literally speaking doing 2 quads is more difficult, but actually it's hard to say if it's more difficult to do 1 quad at Stojko's time or do 2 quads later. If you know what I mean. Sheesh.
Personally I don't really like too much toe work, because toe pick can't generate speed like edges. So it's more difficult to make it flow, to do it well in other words. During 2003 season, lots of skaters tried that kind of footwork, Michelle Kwan, Sasha Cohen, Plushenko, even Kulik did that in his show program, but honestly they all looked different, that's the nicest word I can think of.
My choices were Wylie, Browning and Lambiel, but I think that Hamilton, Orser and Buttle have been great, too. And of course John Curry and Robin Cousins!!!
Looking at this, it obviously would take too long to explain to you what complex footwork should consist of so I'm not going to try.
Oh really? I'm glad you are so easily amused. Repeatedly attempting to ridicule others' opinions without giving any backing arguments doesn't make you look very smart, you know. So that's how you define "artistry" too? How about think of your own definition and explain to me why you feel Yagudin is so great artistically as a pro using your own definition? Or you just aren't creative enough and had to steal mine?
Skater Y has had quite a few memorable programs with actual choreography and innovation since turning pro. It is my impression that skater X's last serious program was from 2003 before he turned pro and he has been repeatedly performing old eligible programs in shows since. However, I would like to be proven wrong. So if you have any video of his good, non-trivial pro programs, post away!
I'm curious too to know how all Lambiel's programs look the same. Which ones have you seen?
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