CoP programs worthy of a 6.0?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by shady82, Jul 12, 2012.

  1. shady82

    shady82 New Member

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    Which programs scored under CoP do you think merit a 6.0 under the old judging system? I'd love to compile a list of these programs. Here's a couple for starters - unless otherwise noted, the 6.0 is for presentation:

    MEN:
    Daisuke Takahashi, 2006 NHK LP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qmrr1gpGOPA
    Daisuke Takahashi, 2007 World Championships LP: couldn't find the program:confused:
    Jeffrey Buttle, 2008 World Championships LP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypNSQb9heLA
    Jeremy Abbott, 2010 Nationals: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJorSTaB59I

    LADIES:
    Sasha Cohen, 2006 Olympics SP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mgTEXcTbis
    Mao Asada, 2007 GPF LP (technical merit): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYJ_mG6Qvno
    Yu-na Kim, 2010 Olympics LP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAia4TeOuyo&feature=fvwrel

    PAIRS:
    Shen/Zhao, 2004 GPF LP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHQRfNDX3kI
    Shen/Zhao, 2005 GPF LP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ug1xqk5nUSw&feature=related
    Pang/Tong, 2010 Olympics LP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZslPks2lRCg

    DANCE:
    Virtue/Moir, 2010 Olympics OD: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6mge7uZbLo
    Virtue/Moir, 2010 Olympics FD: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_Pc_a-WBSs
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  2. Fozzie Bear

    Fozzie Bear New Member

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  3. Blair

    Blair New Member

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  4. HSGP21

    HSGP21 New Member

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  5. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Yu Na Kim's Vancouver LP would have gotten some 6.0s in any past Olympics or in Vancouver itself under 6.0. It would have won any past Olympics too, probably sweeping all 9 first place ordinals in the LP at any past Olympics to boot (I dont see Tara from Nagano taking one judge off her, and that was the 2nd greatest Olympic winning LP ever).

    Vritue & Moir's Vancouver FD would have gotten some 6.0s in any past Olympics except for 1984 or 1992, or in Vancouver itself under 6.0. It would have won any past Olympics except possibly 1984 and 1992.

    Irina Slutskaya's 2006 Olympics SP might have gotten a 6.0 or two for required elements, then again she has never gotten a 6.0 for technical merit at the World or Olympic level so perhaps not. I cant believe her 2002 Worlds SP did not get 6.0s for technical merit which it should have, and did get 6.0s for presentation which it should not have. Her 2006 Olympics SP was just as strong technically and superior in presentation to her 2002 Worlds SP.

    Sasha's 2006 Olympics SP probably would have gotten some 6.0s for presentation depending on skate order.

    Shen & Zhou's 2005 GP final LP would probably have gotten a few 6.0s.

    Totmianina & Marinin's 2006 Olympic LP might have gotten a 6.0 or two.

    Stephane Lambiel's 2006 Worlds and 2007 Worlds LP probably would have gotten a couple 6.0s for presentation despite the technical errors.

    Plushenkos 2005 GP final long program and his 2006 Olympics LP would likely have gotten a couple 6.0s for technical merit, especialy against the field at the time.
  6. vodkashot

    vodkashot New Member

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  7. AxelAnnie

    AxelAnnie Well-Known Member

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    I don't know enough to comment in ice dance on COP v. 6.0....but that V/M performance was heaven! One of my favorite pieces of music. I don't think I had seen that. Thanks.
  8. DaiKozOda

    DaiKozOda Active Member

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    Last edited: Jul 12, 2012
  9. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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    Virtue and Moir 2008 FD, 2010 FD and OD
    Domnina and Shabalin 2010 CD
    Kim Yuna 2010 SP and FS
    Slutskaya 2005 FS
    Asada 2008 SP
  10. bartek

    bartek New Member

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    As much as I like Slutskaya's skating I don't think any of her shorts deserved 6.0 for technical merit. I would give 6.0 for a skater who landed a triple-triple in SP. Besides, her short from 2006 Olympics wasn't that perfect as she had weak landing on her 3Lz-2T combination.

    I think that her 2005 Worlds definitely would've gotten some 6.0's, surely for technical merit and maybe even for presentation since the range of emotion in that performance was incredible.

    I would give Yu-Na 6.0 for presentation for her SP from both 2009 Worlds and 2009 4CC and also 6.0 for presentation for 2010 FS from the Olympics. I'm not sure if she should get 6.0 for techical since she did not include one of the triple jumps.

    Sasha should definitely get 6.0's for presentation at 2006 Olympics. This program was undermarked in PCS. Yu-Na got more in Vancouver and I don't think it's fair though it might not be the best idea to compare scores form different competitions.
  11. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    I agree that many of these programs would have been deserving of 6.0s, but not all of them would have actually received 6.0s when skating order is taken into account. For example, Volosozhar & Trankov weren't even in the last group for the 2012 Worlds LP. How many skaters have gotten a 6.0 from the penultimate group? Petrenko in the 94 Oly LP is the only one I recall.
  12. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Valid points on why Slutskaya didnt get a 6.0 for tech. in the short program. Still nobody was doing a triple-triple in the short back in 2002, so I think 6.0s for technical for her SP at Worlds and the GP final would have been merited. Why the heck give 6.0s for presentation (which for Slutskaya can never be justified, 5.9s perhaps) and not her any for tech. which is her main strength, even for any of her technicallly outstanding SPs, it makes no sense.

    I agree on Cohen's 2006 SP but indeed as you suggested you cant compare scores from 2006 to 2010 at all. The scoring inflation over time vs quality is ridiculous. Quality might have improved on the whole since then (well in some disciplines, at some times, not really) but in no way by the margin of the scores.

    I cant believe I am saying this but I think one or two judges might have thrown out a 6.0 for Miki Ando's LP at the 2006 Skate America and 2007 Worlds event. Triple lutz-triple loop, 7 triples in both, and all jumps clean and very strong. Other elements not that great, but on the tech. mark under 6.0 they started with the jumps and looked at other elements from there. Which just shows how COP is different, since Asada's LP outscored her technically at Worlds even with the mistakes, but probably wouldnt have under 6.0 even with her triple axel due to the mistakes.
  13. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    How about Patrick Chan's SP at Worlds 2011?
  14. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Kim's 2007 and 2009 Worlds short programs and 2010 Olympic long program.

    Asada's 2006 Skate America short program.

    Suzuki's 2011 NHK short program.

    Kostner's 2012 Worlds long program.

    Czisny's 2011 US Nationals long program.

    Weir's 2006 Olympic short program.

    Buttle's 2008 Worlds long program.

    Chan's 2011 Worlds short program.

    Way too many to pick from Lambiel and Takahashi.
  15. Emdee

    Emdee Well-Known Member

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    Chan's 4CC in 2009
  16. tut88

    tut88 New Member

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    Lambiel's flamenco 2007-2008
  17. sk8ingcoach

    sk8ingcoach Active Member

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    Kostner LP worlds 2012
    Kostner SP GPF 2011
    Yuna Kim LP olympics
    Patrick Chan SP & LP worlds 2011
    Akiko Suzuki SP NHK 2011
    Irina Slutskaya LP Worlds 2005
    Volosozhar & Trankov LP Worlds 2012
    Savchenko & Szolkowy LP Worlds 2011
  18. Amy03

    Amy03 New Member

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    Asada sp 2009 team world trophy - Clair de lune
    Asada fs 2011 4cc - Liebestraum

    Takahashi 2010 fs
  19. gingercrush

    gingercrush New Member

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    Only on the artistic side as the Triple Flutz would have prevented the 6.0. On her Short Programs World Team Trophy SP springs to mind. Both a 6.0 in required elements and artisty would have been merited.

    I'm not sure any of her LPs would merit a 6.0 on artisitc side due to lack of the five normal triples and the flutz. Extremely technically difficult but not enough.
  20. Amy03

    Amy03 New Member

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    I'm not sure any of her LPs would merit a 6.0 on artisitc side due to lack of the five normal triples and the flutz. Extremely technically difficult but not enough.[/QUOTE]

    well the flutz would not even have been considered a flutz in the old system it's much later the edge rules got stricter, and in her Liebestraum she had all the tripples included that should have given her 6.0 on the tech and artistic side!
  21. gingercrush

    gingercrush New Member

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    well the flutz would not even have been considered a flutz in the old system it's much later the edge rules got stricter, and in her Liebestraum she had all the tripples included that should have given her 6.0 on the tech and artistic side![/QUOTE]

    That really isn't true. Lack of edge was penalised under the 6.0 system.
  22. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    When I think 6.0 I think Yuna FD in 2010 Olys. It was probably the most technically clean women's OGM ever.
  23. Amy03

    Amy03 New Member

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    That really isn't true. Lack of edge was penalised under the 6.0 system.[/QUOTE]


    even if it was it wasn't judged as strictly as under COP, cause asada never got any edge call on the lutz under the old system when she was competing as junior. I think it's because that when the edge is taken off from an outside edge, and the skater then slightly switches to an inside edge, it was still considered a clean lutz, while under the new system it's considered a flutz if it's not from a completely outside edge!

    if one got an edge call under the old system it was pretty much because it was a VERY visible wrong edge! so they may have penalised lack of edge under the 6.0 system but not in the same strict way they are doing now!
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2012
  24. bartek

    bartek New Member

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    even if it was it wasn't judged as strictly as under COP, cause asada never got any edge call on the lutz under the old system when she was competing as junior. I think it's because that when the edge is taken off from an outside edge, and the skater then slightly switches to an inside edge, it was still considered a clean lutz, while under the new system it's considered a flutz if it's not from a completely outside edge!

    if one got an edge call under the old system it was pretty much because it was a VERY visible wrong edge! so they may have penalised lack of edge under the 6.0 system but not in the same strict way they are doing now![/QUOTE]

    I agree that the judges didn't seem to penalise for flutzing or lipping under the old suystem even if they were supposed to do so. They didn't care for Sarah Hughes' severe underrotations at all even if there was a rule saying that they should have taken 0.1 from the base mark.

    By the way, "VERY visible wrong edge" is exactly what Mao used to have for many years on her lutz. Under Tarasova she had a few times she took off from flat but now she came back to switching to the inside edge.
  25. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    I don't think the judges took off 0.1 because there was never any accountability. IJS has so many areas of scores and deductions, you can see where the skater messed up and if the judges took off where they were supposed to. 6.0 was pretty vague and subject to more opinion. You can only look at the programs now after the fact and be critical, which isn't that fair. I don't hold the 6.0 skaters responsible for edge calls because they never had the opportunity to fix it. And the judges were never told to take off for it. No, it wasn't fair, but that's the system everyone played by.
  26. Amy03

    Amy03 New Member

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    By the way, "VERY visible wrong edge" is exactly what Mao used to have for many years on her lutz. Under Tarasova she had a few times she took off from flat but now she came back to switching to the inside edge.[/QUOTE]


    no I wouldn't call Mao's lutz as a "very visible wrong edge" since she did take of from an outside edge but before rotating then Slightly switched to an inside edge, and Mao has gotten credit for a clean lutz under tarasova, which shows that her lutz was borderline outside, this is why she sometimes managed to get full credit for it and sometimes didn't.
  27. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    There was a deduction for wrong-edge takeoff written into the short-program deduction sheet under 6.0

    In that sense the judges were instructed to deduct for it -- on lutzes. I don't think anyone paid much attention to wrong edges on flips.

    I don't know that there were ever any written-down instructions beyond the basic fact that it was a mandatory deduction. I imagined some referees sometimes mentioned it in pre-competition meetings and others didn't, that some judges were sticklers for correct lutz takeoffs and others weren't.

    In any case, the skaters never got any specific written feedback about where they lost points in competition. They could see if their short program Required Elements scores were lower than the Presentation scores, but if they wanted to know what deductions the judges had taken they would have needed to ask each judge separately . . . or ask one and guess that others saw the same things.
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2012
  28. shady82

    shady82 New Member

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    I agree that the judges didn't seem to penalise for flutzing or lipping under the old suystem even if they were supposed to do so. They didn't care for Sarah Hughes' severe underrotations at all even if there was a rule saying that they should have taken 0.1 from the base mark.

    By the way, "VERY visible wrong edge" is exactly what Mao used to have for many years on her lutz. Under Tarasova she had a few times she took off from flat but now she came back to switching to the inside edge.[/QUOTE]

    Sarah definitely got penalized for her jumping flaws (URs and flutzes). This explains why her technical merit score ranges at international competitions are usually 5.4-5.6, even though she does a 3l-2r. Even at 2001 Worlds, where she landed 7 triples including a 3s-3r, she still got a 5.3 for technical merit. At the 2002 Olympics, she got no higher than 5.8 for technical merit.

    Of course, under CoP, she would be penalized much more heavily than under 6.0, but the judges definitely lowered her base mark.
  29. shady82

    shady82 New Member

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    I think a 6.0 for presentation should be reserved only for programs that would receive a 5.9 if skated well, but in this case the particular performance went above and beyond.

    This is why I don't, for example, think Slutskaya's 2005 LP merited a 6.0 for either mark. Some of her spins, IMO, were sloppy, such as her COE scratch spin. The choreography itself was sloppy as well, though it was an emotional and memorable program. I'd maybe give her a 5.9 for both marks, but not a 6.0. Her best performance ever was really at the 2000-01 GPF: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SXO6s3MCDw. She got a 6.0 for technical merit here, and deservedly so.
  30. bartek

    bartek New Member

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    no I wouldn't call Mao's lutz as a "very visible wrong edge" since she did take of from an outside edge but before rotating then Slightly switched to an inside edge, and Mao has gotten credit for a clean lutz under tarasova, which shows that her lutz was borderline outside, this is why she sometimes managed to get full credit for it and sometimes didn't.[/QUOTE]

    Are you insane? Mao's entrance looked exactly the same on both lutz and flip for years, going into deep outside edge and then switching to deep inside edge before the take off.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKd2t0qvNdU it's clearly flutz

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=rl4gyYLhQhQ&t=4m16s now, this is her triple flip and listen to what British Eurosport guys say. Then you have the slow-motion of the flutz, exactly the same way she rolls back to the deep inside edge.

    You're describing it as if it wasn't that much of a problem. Sometimes she did it properly, sometimes not. That's wrong. You're a biased uber. Mao got credit for clean triple lutz only once or twice at best and it was under Tarasova. Bedore that, she had always terrible entrance to the lutz, terrible technique and clearly wrong edge though she had wonderful height and flow out of this jump.

    Recently, under Sato, her technique has improved significantly, however she still flutzes.
  31. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    Seriously folks, the quote tool really isn't rocket science. :lol:
  32. Amy03

    Amy03 New Member

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    [/QUOTE]

    you know you have just repeated what i have said from the beginning, and the commentator also said the same, Mao takes off from an outside but switches to an inside edge before rotating (on the lutz).. and yes I did say she sometimes got full credit for her lutz and sometimes didn't, because that's a fact, that really she managed to get full credit for the lutz under tarasova !

    but you claiming that the entrance to her lutz was horrible is nonsense cause she did take of from the right edge, though she sometimes switched to an inside edge before rotating, but it was still beautifully done, when it comes to entrance, air positioning, and height, flow, so i wouldn't call the technique on the lutz as horrible... and yes i may describe it as a no big deal that Mao got an edge on the lutz, cause the deduction on the lutz is still minor when you look at her overall jump content, and it's value...

    but i agree that sato's work with Mao has improved Mao's technique, and i think it's only a matter of time before she get's used to doing the lutz with the right edge!


    (and another thing i don't mind having a discussion, with someone i mostly disagree with, as long as it's in a proper way but the moment you begin to be rude the discussion is for me over, so i hope that if we in the future have something to discuss it will be in the right way)
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2012
  33. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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    Savchenko and Szolkowy in 2011 worlds
  34. kittyjake5

    kittyjake5 Well-Known Member

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  35. bartek

    bartek New Member

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    you know you have just repeated what i have said from the beginning, and the commentator also said the same, Mao takes off from an outside but switches to an inside edge before rotating (on the lutz).. and yes I did say she sometimes got full credit for her lutz and sometimes didn't, because that's a fact, that really she managed to get full credit for the lutz under tarasova !

    but you claiming that the entrance to her lutz was horrible is nonsense cause she did take of from the right edge, though she sometimes switched to an inside edge before rotating, but it was still beautifully done, when it comes to entrance, air positioning, and height, flow, so i wouldn't call the technique on the lutz as horrible... and yes i may describe it as a no big deal that Mao got an edge on the lutz, cause the deduction on the lutz is still minor when you look at her overall jump content, and it's value...

    but i agree that sato's work with Mao has improved Mao's technique, and i think it's only a matter of time before she get's used to doing the lutz with the right edge!


    (and another thing i don't mind having a discussion, with someone i mostly disagree with, as long as it's in a proper way but the moment you begin to be rude the discussion is for me over, so i hope that if we in the future have something to discuss it will be in the right way)[/QUOTE]

    The argument with you is totally pointless. Even when I gave the links showing that Mao really takes off her lutz from DEEP inside edge you're still claiming that she "takes off from an outside but switches to an inside edge before rotating". That's a nonsense! If she switches to an inside edge before rotating that exactly means that she TAKES OFF from that edge :lol:.

    Out of all triple lutzes she attempted in her career only once did she get credit for landing it cleanly. That is a big deal. The number of attempted lutzes done with wrong edge simply outnumbers clean lutzes by a gigantic margin. Get over it! Mao has terrible flutz.

    And the etrance to her lutz is horrible indeed. The whole jump does have some good qualities but the technique on the entry is horrible. Ugly mule kick and severely deep inside edge. Again, get over it! Fortunately she's gotten rid of that terrible mule kick but she still flutzes!
  36. flipforsynchro

    flipforsynchro New Member

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    I would give michal brezina all 6.0's for every performance