Controversial results that actually led to change?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by moviechicko_o, Feb 26, 2014.

  1. moviechicko_o

    moviechicko_o New Member

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    Other than SLC's judging scandal which led to an entire overhaul of the system, when have controversial results actually had lasting impact on the judging system? It seems like we have a lot of iffy judging issues that never really get addressed.
  2. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Member

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    None other than the SLC pairs scandal and all it created was a more scandalous system which creates even more controversy and even worse results, except in ice dance where the judging has improved greatly with it.
  3. MR-FAN

    MR-FAN Kostner Softie

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    Janet Lynn not winning competitions based on the 60% school figures helped introduce the SP and ordinal ranking

    Midori Ito thrilling crowds left and right without winning many competitions helped eliminate school figures
  4. walei

    walei Well-Known Member

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    :lol:
  5. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    The way figures counted toward the final result was changed again after Frattianne "wuz robbed"

    Iirc, the tech mark deciding tie breaks in LP was changed to the presentation mark after Boitano beat Orser.
  6. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Member

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    I dont know what you find funny about what I said. The judging in ice dance did greatly improve. It used to be Russian owned no matter what like every other event in skating. Now it allows skaters who arent from Moscow to stand a chance at medals. Placements move from dance to dance and competition to competition which never used to happen. Falls and stumbles lose you points and placements unlike before. I know it isnt perfect; many thought Virtue & Moir should have won the Olympics this time for instance. It is much better and fairer than it used to be though.
  7. parapluies

    parapluies Well-Known Member

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    :rofl::rofl::rofl:The judging in ice dance has taken a turn for the worse once 2010 was over. Before the 2010-2011 season it could've been anyone's game.
  8. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    Very true. Although--ironically enough--the one year Janet Lynn skated the short program she bombed it and still lost the world title. And the only world title Midori won was in a year that school figures were still part of the competition.
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  9. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Member

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    Are you disputing that V&M and D&W are the two best? The reason those two always win, is they are clearly the two best. It isnt their fault the other teams arent at their level. Who should be challenging them, seriously. Before 2010-2011 it had been almost everyones game for about 7 years which shows the improved judging under COP. When lots of teams are close in ability the fluid standings with lots of contenders show that. The standings from 3 downwards over the last 4 years have too. It just so happens two teams are a level above everyone else, and good judging must acknowledge that too.
  10. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    Under the old 6.0 system, I think the change from adding placements to majority ordinals was made because some judges were manipulating the system, putting opposition skaters a place or two lower than they should have been in an effort to drive down their ordinal scores. (Actually, they literally were driving them up, since the smaller the ordinal the better.)
  11. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    It's only taken a turn for the worst in their opinions because their preferred team (Virtue/Moir) stopped winning. Funny that they're including the 2012 Worlds result with that, although I doubt that any of them were bemoaning the judging during those Worlds. Anyway, 2010 certainly was not anyone's game as they like to say because V/M winning was pretty much a given seeing how that whole season was going. The only unprecedented thing was D/W losing the OD to V/M at the Olympics after D/W had beaten them prior in that phase.
  12. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Member

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    I thought D&W were robbed majorly at the 2012 Worlds. V&M's Funny Face was their worst program ever, and they made some obvious errors while D&W were perfect. I do think the judging has been way to pro D&W of late though. Even so on the whole ice dance judging is far better the last 10 years than it used to be. I dont see how anyone can deny that.
  13. walei

    walei Well-Known Member

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    D/W getting +3s GOE with out of sync twizzles and top PCS across the board to me is reputation judging. Even without going into D/W and V/M, judging for the rest of the top groups aren't great either. I/K getting 110, PCS over teams like P/B, the way B/S won CoR... But I guess you will think those marks are justified because otherwise it doesn't make sense that all disciplines have judging issues except when it comes to D/W where they got it absolutlely right.
  14. Seerek

    Seerek Well-Known Member

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    1968-1969 was the season when figures were reduced from 60% to 50%...not sure it was necessarily a skater in particular that brought on the change for that season.

    But yes, Janet Lynn certainly was behind the change that happened in 1972-73 where figures were reduced again to 40%, short program 20% and long program 40% (changed again to 30% figures 50% long program by the 1976 Olympics). More significantly, the number of figures performed dropped from 6 in 1972 all the way down to 3 by 1976, which lessened the margin of leads by which figures specialists could accumulate after each figure.
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2014
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  15. MrLucky

    MrLucky New Member

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    After Evan's win in Vancouver, quads were boosted. Also, wasn't the 3A boosted and allowed in the Ladies SP.
  16. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Member

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    I never said ice dance judging was picture perfect today. Far from it. Just that it atleast improved from what it was. Do you not remember the horror days of Bestiamanova & Bukin winning 5 straight world or olympic titles with no technical skills at all, or Gritschuk & Platov winning every event even with stumbles and falls and beating Usova & Zhulin and Torvil & Dean for the 94 gold with their sloppiest program ever. The bloc judging scandal in Nagano. Atleast you have to admit it is overall better than it was then.

    I do think the fix was in for D&W's in Sochi but that was one event, and the figure skating event in Sochi was all fixed and a deal to secure D&W their gold and I&K a bronze no matter what was part of it. It shouldnt be reflective of how ice dance overall is judged these days. D&W and V&M are generally very evenly matched so meetings between them can go either way and their history reflects that, very equal. The Sochi dance was just a part of the horrible Sochi skating judging in general.
  17. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

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    'Funny Face' was not a great program by Virtue/Moir's standards, but it was not bad either. The only obvious error they had was a stumble that was not on an element. Davis/White had two level 3 step sequences vs. Virtue/Moir's level 4 and level 3 - that's what made the difference in the technical score. I thought D/W's edges in that performance were not as deep as usual throughout. So they were not perfect either. I am not even sure that D/W had the better FD. Perhaps the more accessible and "exciting" one, yes. But there was so much two-footed skating in it, and the contrast between it and 'Funny Face' was more evident than ever since in that regard. The footwork in 'Funny Face' was so much more difficult than in 'Die Fledermaus'. So it is only logical that Tessa and Scott got a higher score for skating skills even despite the stumbles - it was what should have happened in other competitions as well that season. The 'Performance/Execution' score is debatable, but I think a higher 'Choreography' mark is understandable because of that very reason (simpler footwork vs. more difficult) and others that I had thought about, but have forgotten now. 'Interpretation' is debatable again, but what I know is that more accessible and "exciting" music doesn't automatically mean that the skater using it should get higher marks for interpretation. The 'Interpretation' component is about interpreting the music that the skater is skating to, not about who chose more exciting music. And it's actually more difficult to interpret less "exciting" music.

    It was more than one event. Or weren't you watching the GP Final? It was the event were Davis/White with small mistakes in both programs won over a completely clean Virtue/Moir (and, no, V/M didn't have any loss in levels, while D/W probably should have lost a level on their SD twizzles). Even some D/W fans admitted that V/M should have won at least the SD. And the gap in the team event where V/M did make mistakes was too huge as well.
  18. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    Evan's controversial win over Evgeny in 2010 (although I agree that Evan won) led to the quad being worth more again (which I also think is good for the sport moving forward).
  19. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Although I much preferred V/M's SD at the GPF, there's a good reason why D/W did not lose a level on those twizzles. It was explained in one of the pre-Olympics V/M threads, but that was widely ignored.
  20. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    IMO changing the rules about program content is a different question from changing the scoring system in response to bad judging.

    Another change made about that time was how they score the under-rotated jumps. I think that was done mostly in response to audience bafflement over scores, because as long as the skater stays upright, looks to have landed on one foot and flows out of the jump, they don't notice the 120 degree UR. Now the jump needs to be more obviously under-rotated to get the full downgrade.

    Japan lobbied hard to get the SP program rule to allow ladies to do 2A or 3A to benefit Mao and I have always found that change to be wrong. (Karmic payback came here when the 3A ended up costing her in the SP and I think probably also led to the other errors. A clean SP with a 2A would have left Mao in a much stronger position.)

    Before the 3 axel, the SP elements were always intended to reflect what multiple skaters were doing. They didn't change the ladies' solo jump out of fw to a triple until long after the whole field could do multiple triples. They didn't allow quads in the men's SP just for Elvis; they waited until there were multiple top men doing quads.

    It is so impressive how some fans can whine long and hard about levels when they don't even understand how levels are called. Weirder still, they continue those whines even knowing they are wrong.
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2014
  21. miki88

    miki88 New Member

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    I think it's a bit mean to call it karma, since the skater themselves don't have anything to do with the changing of the rules. Besides, if it weren't changed, she would have stuck with her old SP layout back in 2010.
  22. walei

    walei Well-Known Member

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    How do you explain the GOEs at one point where Meryl and Charlie were completely out of sync with their free foot knees point in the complete opposite directions?

    As Louis said in one of the other threads although he definitely wasn't referring to D/W but I think it's totally applicable. There are skater out there that as long as they do an element and not fall their starting GOE is +2. D/W is one of them and that is reputation judging or judging with an agenda.
  23. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Who knows, maybe the utter speed and distance and cleanliness of features counter-acted that. Maybe if it was totally synched to perfection, then it would have gotten +3s.
  24. Rex

    Rex Well-Known Member

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    Didn't Sonia Henie short skirts revolutionize ladies competitive outfits??
  25. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I definitely think her short skirts help enhance the athletic side of skating as shorter skirts allowed much more freedom of movement and ability to do jumps.
  26. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    After 1998 ice dance had more requirements for tech as twizzles.

    After 2002 no more 6.0

    After 2006 strict underrotations rules

    After 2010 less strict ur rules and quad values more and 3a allowed in 3a for women as axel jump
  27. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    Are we back to the GP Final? I think you are right - speed and skating close together on twizzles counts for a lot. They usually get nearly all +3s and their GOE on that element were distinctly lower than usual. IMO it's just more whining, selecting which bits of data they want and ignoring the bits that don't fit their theories. It's over. Your darlings didn't win, and all but your little corner of the world are OK with that. Time to move on.
  28. russian_lady

    russian_lady New Member

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    SLC olympics and changes in figure skating?
    Sluckaya was robbed and nothing has changed!
  29. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    UR calls and penalties, I believe, were a direct result of SLC Ladies event. Flutzing and Lipping penalties were probably inspired by Sarah Hughes too, but those were big problems before SLC.
  30. campbellka

    campbellka New Member

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    Why did they get rid of dance compulsories? It seems to me that Katarina Witt had some racy (I guess to some) costumes back in the day and needed to cover up, but these days, you see some sheer clothing like sheer sleeves.
  31. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    Actually, the flutz issue came to the forefront of skating discussions with Lipinski. Hughes and Cohen did also both flutz pretty clearly, even Kwan occasionally had a very slight flutz (tho usually more of a flat which probably would not get called under IJS either). Hughes did often UR her triples, but in the SLC free skate all (or maybe all but one) actually were within the 90 degrees now allowed. I was among those who thought Slutskaya should have been 1st in the SP at SLC, but I have little sympathy for her or for Kwan after their free skates. They had it within their grasp and blew it, plain and simple. They have no one to blame but themselves.

    Skating after Hughes, Slutskaya knew she could not play it safe but she did. She skated tight, without her usual speed and never did get in the 3Lo meant for the back of one of the combos. She also barely held on to the landing of the 3F. (Hamilton also called the second 3 Lz as 2-footed but I don't see it and can't find a good replay - if it was 2 footed, it was really slight.) A strong presentation skater might get away with glitches and doubling planned triples, but Slutskaya's second mark was always a bit lower than others and she needed to win big on the technical mark and that meant hitting everything in that program. All in all, she just didn't skate like a champion. You might get away with not skating your best when no one else does either, but in this case someone did.
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2014
  32. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    I think you are thinking of Witt's SP costume from 88 Europeans. She was advised to change it before the Olympics and did. There are no rules against sheer fabrics. Most skirts these days are sheer and most ladies have some illusion fabric in the bodice to make it look more bare than it is. The only rules are that costumes be "modest, dignified and appropriate for athletic competition – not garish or theatrical in design" and "must not give the effect of excessive nudity for athletic sport". Oh, and men have to wear trousers (no tights) and, for ice dancing only, men have to wear sleeves.

    Why, one wonders, does the ISU need separate costume rules (that say almost the same thing) for ice dance and the other disciplines? I mean, if I don't want to see a male ice dancer's arm pits, then I sure don't want to see pair skater arm pits either. (Bureaucracy in action, I guess. Just because there is a separate Dance Technical Committee should not mean there can't be places where all 4 disciplines are covered by the same rules.)
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2014
  33. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    They changed the costume rule after 88 due to both Witt and Thomas' sp costumes. All ladies costumes had to have definite skirts after that. Debi's unitards didn't come back until like 2005 iirc.

    Johnny said on NBCSN that dance did have a new rule limiting the amount of fake nude fabric because things were getting out of hand and too distracting. I also thought the sleeves thing was for all men, not just dance. Or did you mean dance men can't have shortsleeves?
  34. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    No. The costume rules are found in two different places in the ISU regulations, in Rule 500 for singles and pair skating and in Rule 612 for ice Dance. Only the latter mentions sleeves.
  35. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

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    Yes, perhaps - I don't remember reading it. I am far from an expert, and I haven't looked at D/W's twizzles carefully enough to know for myself, so I was not sure. That's why I wrote "probably". Anyway, those were flawed twizzles that shouldn't have gotten any +3 like they did, while V/M didn't have even that sort of mistakes. I know that until recently D/W fans (at least some of them) used to find all kinds of reasons why V/M's dances were not as good as D/W's (including this season's SD), so they shouldn't have been scored as high anyway. Which ironically would mean that Marina was giving them the slightly worse program at least on several occasions, which in turn supports the theory that Marina has been favoring D/W for some time. But that was while most D/W fans were still saying that both teams are equals, just very different, so when both went clean and V/M lost, or when clean V/M lost to slightly flawed D/W (like in the GP Final), they had to find other excuses and explanations for that. But it seems that the new story is (at least from some D/W fans) that V/M and D/W were equal, or close to equal already before 2009/2010, but now D/W have passed V/M (with the former improving constantly, and V/M staying on the same level, or even regressing - at least that's what they say or hint), so that's why D/W won when both were clean.

    Oh, but it did get some +3s. As for the distance, D/W's second twizzles have never covered much ice, even when they were otherwise perfect.
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2014
  36. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    I think there should have been kind of uproar in Vancouver when Rachael's two flip were downgraded when they were clearly fully rotated.
  37. zigzig

    zigzig Member

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    Didn't Michelle Kwan's time deduction at 2004 Worlds in the short lead to the change in program time for senior shorts from 2:40 to 2:50?
  38. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    After 1980, Fratianne losing the gold to Poetzsch despite easily beating her in the SP and LP, and Biellmann completely off the podium despite winning the LP outright, probably led to the complete scrapping of raw point totals
  39. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    I don't know if it was any particular result, but yes, they got rid of raw point totals because it was giving figures an inordinate effect on the outcomes. While the top few places on any one judge's card would typically be separated by one or two points in the SP or FS, there would often be much larger point gaps in the figures. That meant a skater could win figures by several points then lose both the SP & FS and still be first on that judge's card. (Actually that is kind of like we see today sometimes under IJS - the big SP lead seeming to render the FS less relevant.) So they went from summing the points across the three phases to determine a judge's ordinal placements to giving ordinal placements for each judge for each phase.
  40. Rex

    Rex Well-Known Member

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    I remember reading that some of her competitors complained because her dresses were so short. But she was able to get away with it because she was just a young girl.