Cinquanta Wants to Eliminate Short Programs

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by reese, Mar 26, 2014.

  1. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    I find some of it a little curmuegonly, get off my lawn, things were better in my day though. The kids of today eh? "they have no understanding of mastery when it comes to skating correctly" in the same breath that he says he watched the Olympic men and ladies. Patrick Chan (amongst several others, but i use him as the prime example) definitely has mastery of his blade and knows exactly what mastery looks like. To belittle them all saying that doesn't help his arguments.
     
  2. leigh466

    leigh466 Active Member

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    So, I have not read this thread. If someone wouldn't mind... Is there any real possibility that this could happen? I mean, it's ridiculous and I cannot see anyone on the figure skating side supporting this. So, is it a real concern? Was this just an offhand remark? A trial balloon? A ploy to get some other unpopular change instituted so that it will constitute a "win" for the FS side because at least they "saved" the short program?
     
  3. clairecloutier

    clairecloutier Well-Known Member

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    Leigh466--someone else had this same question. Look back to p. 17 of the thread for a response. Yes, I think there's a real possibility this could happen. No one knows for sure, but Cinquanta generally gets what he wants.
     
  4. allezfred

    allezfred Hideous Admin Staff Member

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    And he walked five miles uphill both ways to school in the snow each day. :rolleyes:
     
  5. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to GP & U.S. Sectionals!

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    I think Hanna sums it up accurately (in her sentence bolded by me). There IS a formal proposal submitted by USFS to get rid of anonymous judging to be voted on at the ISU Congress (getting it passed is where collective effort and energy should be focused, IMO), but nothing about getting rid of the short program, as far as I am aware.
     
  6. clairecloutier

    clairecloutier Well-Known Member

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    Cinquanta's proposals are listed in a letter he sent to all ISU Council Members and ISU Technical Committee chairs. The language of the letter is rather opaque. Cinquanta starts off with the following paragraph:

    So, he begins by mentioning the 2014 ISU Congress. He doesn't demand specifically that the proposals be discussed at the Congress. However, the intention seems clear that they will be. Why else would he raise the issue? As ISU President, I assume he can introduce any topics he wants at the Congress. He does state that the proposals are "personal opinions." However, since he is President, my guess is that he expects his opinions to be taken pretty seriously. Note he also says the proposals have been "already expressed," which indicate he's been pushing for this behind the scenes already.

    He concludes with:

    Again, it's a little unclear what he's saying here. Is it a veiled threat to speak up now, or his proposals will simply pass into law? Or is he saying that if anyone agrees with them, speak up now to help move them forward, otherwise the proposals will NOT happen? It's rather hard to tell.

    I think it's safe to assume that Cinquanta is submitting these proposals for discussion/consideration at the June Congress. Again, why else would he bring them up? To think otherwise strains credulity. And given the success he's had getting his past plans approved, there's every reason to be concerned this will get approved too. Hopefully it won't; hopefully the federations/council members will finally start standing up to Cinquanta. But they haven't so far. Not a single federation or official has even put out a statement of non-support for this proposal.
     
  7. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

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    Do you have his qualifications or record?
     
  8. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    I think formal proposals that get voted on at the Congress have to come from a federation or one of the Technical Committees. My guess is he has gone the "personal letter" route because he did not get the initial response he wanted from the technical committees.

    I can't honestly see why any of them would find this a good idea. I wonder if perhaps he floats the idea now with the hope of getting it voted on as a farewell gift in 2016. It will be a scary clue if he can get them as far as voting to support a study this time around.

    Cinquanta talks about saving money, but cutting the event essentially in half also reduces the product they have to sell and has to ultimately reduce what TV broadcasters are willing to pay to air these events. Is NBC going to be pleased to hear there will only be half as many nights of figure skating next Olympics? Skating may be less of a draw as a stand-alone event, but it is still, I think, the big draw in Winter Olympic viewing in the countries paying the most money for those broadcast rights.

    Surely there have to other ways of cutting costs without destroying your product. For starters they can eliminate the posh accommodations and VIP suites for ISU officials. I also never thought it made any sense for the ISU or host federations to pay costs for competitors. Obviously, they need to pay for the technical officials and judges, but, to me, each federation should be paying for their own coaches, skaters, etc. (There could, perhaps still be a small fund to defray costs for the smaller federations.)

    But really, the cost of a couple extra days at Worlds can't really be much more than the tip of the ISU budget. He proposes cutting the SP to save money, yet they plan to add a new Challenger Series events that will probably not pay for themselves at all. It just rings false. If they do need to cut expenses, they should perhaps start by looking at staffing levels at Headquarters, business practices, and administrative expenses. I suspect there is still a lot of overhead they could cut before they start cutting out the meat of the sport.
     
    alilou and (deleted member) like this.
  9. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to GP & U.S. Sectionals!

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    It is my understanding that the real work and discussions among the federations and ISU Congress delegates usually go on behind the scenes and are not revealed through public statements. I truly hope this (opposition through coalition building) is the case regarding Cinquanta's "proposals."
     
  10. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    The Challenger Series events are funded entirely by the event organizers who have to apply to be in the series. The out-of-pocket cost to the ISU is 42K CHF split among the top three in each discipline, or a total of ~ 35K Euros/48K USD at today's intermediate rates. There also might be a programming cost to adjust the number of points for that series if the WS and WR lists are updated through an automated process.
     
  11. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    Come on now Fred, you know Tim's right about the spin positions. As for the rest, well... okay, it was a little "IN MY DAY!"
     
  12. allezfred

    allezfred Hideous Admin Staff Member

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    No, I don't. Doesn't make it right for him to completely diss a whole generation of fantastic skaters though.
     
  13. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    Do you really agree with Tim Wood - that not one single skater who skated in the Olympics has a mastery of figure skating basics?

    And really, if we all had to have the qualifications and accomplishments that skaters do in order to critique or discuss them, then I guess Sharpie can just turn out the lights and lock the doors on FSU :rolleyes:
     
  14. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Really. The problem was never the system. It was the judges.

    Onto making audience understand:

    - I thought the progressive TES box would really help TV audience understand skating more, but somehow it wasn't shown at the Olympics.

    - And I wish they could at least show the individual PCS components instead of just the lumpsum PCS score.

    - The final score screen shown at KNC should say:
    [big font] TES: 50; [small font] Jumps: 35; Spins: 10, Sequences: 5, # of URs: 2, # of <s: 1, # of DQ elements: 0
    [big font] PCS: 50; [small font] SS: 8; TR: 8 etc
    [small font] deductions: -1 (reason: costume)
    [big font] total segment score: 100
    [big font] current segment placement: 2
    [big font] total competition score: 160
    [big big font] current competition placement: 1
     
  15. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to GP & U.S. Sectionals!

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    USFS' outgoing president, Pat St. Peter, wrote the following in her "President's Report" for the Governing Council Meeting Book (published in the Members Only section of the site):
     
  16. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    Obviously Pat St Peter has forgotten (or is conveniently choosing to forget) that the IJS started as just a "proposal" from Cinquanta as well. And he told the 2002 ISU congress that what he was proposing was a "project - I repeat, not rule, project". But here were are 12 years later with that system still in place.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/winterolympics2002/hi/english/skating/newsid_1828000/1828380.stm
    http://www.frogsonice.com/skateweb/articles/oc-project.shtml

    He is not to be trusted when he "proposes" something.
     
  17. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    I think you are taking his comment out of context. He was talking about the benefits of training compulsory figures and building mastery of the very specific edges and turns involved in them. Many jump entrances, for example, build directly from a move that used to be learned in compulsory figures. Who knows, maybe Chan would have had a more reliable 3 axel if he had spent time training whatever figure that was.

    The comment in here that jumped out most to me was that Elvis Stojko (already a solid jumper) felt starting to train figures made everything else easier.

    Is it even possible to get patch ice anymore?
     
  18. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    Kind of an odd skater to choose to pick on, since Patrick has a pretty solid foundation in figures.

    I'm not saying he could do Olympic level figures, but his coach required them of him, and as much as he seems to honor his coach after he passed, I can't imagine he quit practicing them.
     
  19. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    It was voted on by the ISU council though. She is saying that there is nothing up for a vote.
     
  20. allezfred

    allezfred Hideous Admin Staff Member

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    If you think that Cinquanta devised IJS on his lonesome, then well..... :shuffle:

    The introduction of the IJS had broad support among the ISU members. Abolishing the short program will not have anywhere near that level of support from the members.
     
  21. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    Did I say that I thought that? No, and I said nothing about who "devised" the system. I said that Cinquanta was the one who presented the "project" to the ISU congress and assured them that it was "not a rule". Which apparently was not the case.

    The concept of a different judging system had broad support. But it's not so clear that the IJS itself was the concept that everyone agreed on. And given the history of deal-making and behind-the-scenes politicking in the ISU, I don't accept that the results of a vote at the ISU congress are truly representative of the majority of the members/federations' opinions.
     
  22. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    The ISU Council apparently thought they were voting on a "project", and then discovered that what they had voted on had been put into the ISU Constitution. Given that sorry history of overriding procedures, the absence of a proposal now is no guarantee that something isn't going to show up later on.
     
  23. The Observer

    The Observer New Member

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    Why is it so difficult to get rid of Cinquanta? This man should have been forced to leave after the 2002 Olympics, and here he still is 12 years later.
     
  24. Iceman

    Iceman Well-Known Member

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    Machida practices figures an hour everyday he trains----and it shows.
     
  25. Meoima

    Meoima Active Member

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    Any news from the council yet? I suppose the figure skating community dislike the idea, but if it's true that ISU is having financial problem, I am afraid the council could hesitate to refuse Speedy's ideas.:mad:
     
  26. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to GP & U.S. Sectionals!

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    The dates of the 2014 ISU Congress are June 6-15 (or June 9-13) in Dublin, Ireland. There will be a thread here in GSD started for news and updates, I'm sure.

    ETA:
    I am hoping this is the case.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2014
  27. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Because he would have to be removed by a vote, and there are enough people with voting privileges that actually like what he does that it never goes to a vote that he could lose. Of course, those people that like him and have voting privileges are the people he worked to get into those positions.
     
  28. barbk

    barbk Well-Known Member

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    How much of this comes back to figure skating and speed skating sharing the same federation internationally? He's called the speedskater for a reason.

    I have a lot of sympathy for the snowboard/halfpipe folks who also have this problem of being in a federation that really isn't aligned with their interests.
     
  29. The Observer

    The Observer New Member

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    This is a good point. I think speed skating and figure skating should have been split into 2 federations a least a decade ago. The 2 spots have virtually nothing in common.

    And if Speedy is so good for speed skating, he could stay in that federation. Figure skating should have its own head who is knowledgable of this sport and the need to modernize it and address the current issues of the day.
     
  30. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Why would a person do that if they can have access to power and money from both? . . . And this is the crux of it . . .