Choreo step sequence and choreo spirals

Discussion in 'Moves In The Field' started by hanca, Feb 20, 2011.

  1. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    I will agree with the others about 22 not being old. I am twice that age - old enough to be your mother!!!!
     
  2. purple skates

    purple skates Shadow dancing

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    I wouldn't be so quick to pounce on the age issue. I know 20 year olds who are cautious and 50 year olds who are fearless. Each of us has our own limitations and strengths that may have nothing to do with our age. That's what makes adult skaters so unique.
     
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  3. Artifice

    Artifice Guest

    Well, there are exceptions everywhere but it's common to have more fear with age. At 50 one has more fear than a 25 years old. That is normal.

    Just look at the two categories : young children between 6 and 10 and adults.
    Among the children look at their level in comparition with each other, and then do the same for the adult, say yourself. The best children go for difficulties, they try, fall hard again and again. The best adults try but they fall less, they are a little bit more tentative. And imagine that these adults who are among the best in their age category would actually be the same than these good children with 20 or more years !
    Age is for something, one can't hide behind this reality that makes things harder for adults, like other factors. There is a reason why adult starters will never reach the level some kids can.
    But get the relative balance of what you do and look at how good you are compared to other adults and think that this is the relative level you would have had if you were a kid.

    A good adult skater (who started as an adult) would have been a good young skater. As well as a low level adult skater would have been a low level young skater. The "good" and "low" qualifications beeing relative to the age group.
     
  4. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    I don't think you can make that assumption at all.
     
  5. Doubletoe

    Doubletoe Well-Known Member

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    Well, there will never be any way of knowing for sure, so it's as good an assumption as any. As an adult onset skater, I think assuming my skating ability in relation to my fellow adults would have been equivalent if we were all 8-year olds is a lot better than living in the world of "shoulda, woulda, coulda" just because I didn't start as a kid.
     
  6. ioana

    ioana Well-Known Member

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    I'm not a big fan of "shoulda, woulda, coulda" in general, but adults have lives outside the rink and based on that, there are a lot more variables that affect what level they get to/how quickly, etc. When I used to work 12 hour-days on a regular basis, I wouldn't really get to skate that much, so it took me a year and a half to pass one of the lower tests (pre-juv, I think). Once I changed jobs and had more time to skate, I passed intermediate moves in about a year. That doesn't mean I suddenly became a better skater; I just had more time to practice.

    Kids -in general- train similar amounts of time, so it's somewhat easier to compare abilities. Adults have different commitments and priorities outside the rink, so there are more things to consider when you compare them besides the level they actually reach after a certain time.
     
  7. Doubletoe

    Doubletoe Well-Known Member

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    It's true that adults have varying outside commitments that affect our skating time. On the other hand, there are plenty of kids who would progress a lot faster if their parents were willing/able to drive them to the rink for practice every morning at 5 or 6am and pay for 8 lessons a week.

    I think one thing we can all agree on is that not all skaters are afforded the same opportunities, and we ultimately just have to make the most of the ice time we have and give ourselves credit for every bit of progress we make! And of course it helps to remember that there's always someone out there who isn't getting to skate at all and thinks we are lucky. . . :)
     
  8. purple skates

    purple skates Shadow dancing

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    :respec:
     
  9. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    I wonder how you're defining scrapheap.

    Never getting triple jumps or representing your country internationally? Most kids won't either.

    Never getting double jumps or reaching the middle competition levels? Again, many kids won't get there either. But you might -- don't give up hope.

    Competing as an adult rather than standard track? Depending on what age limits your federation puts on various competition levels, and what skill level you're able to reach, that could be your own choice. But if you define adult competition as a scrapheap, what does that say about all the older adult skaters?

    Not getting credit for elements because of judges' biases against adults? I haven't seen that happen.

    Not getting any credit for elements not performed according to strict IJS standards? That even happens to elite skaters at times.

    But the elite standards are not necessarily appropriate for lower level competition. In the US, all competitions at levels where single and double jumps are usually cheated or where 3 revolutions per foot and 2 revolution per basic position on spins are rare are judged under 6.0, for both kids and adults. I'd like to see adaptations of the IJS to give appropriate partial credit for partially successful elements at those levels -- for both kids and adults.

    If you're competing under a system that uses elite standards at low levels, then compare how your elements are treated to kids with similar skill levels, not to those who are already at the level of rotating clean double jumps (unless you're already at that level too).

    Does a 15-year-old who skates the same number of hours per week and struggles with the same skills you do belong on a scrapheap? Even if she's having fun and making slow progress but can't or won't put in enough time to reach high competition levels?
     
  10. ioana

    ioana Well-Known Member

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    *raises hand* can I temporarily exclude myself from that since I am off the ice until after ACL and MCL knee surgery and for a good 4 months after that ? :p
     
  11. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    I always find it disappointing to hear about a young skater or parent of a skater who talks about giving up the sport because they feel the kid isn't progressing in terms of competitions or tests. It is sad in a way that they have lost that reason why they took up the sport in the first place which was because they enjoyed doing it. And I really hate when they ask you if they should give up because you are a judge and they think that you might be some sort of expert on the subject.
     
  12. Doubletoe

    Doubletoe Well-Known Member

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    Statistically speaking, everyone should give up the sport, based on the percentage of talented skaters who actually ever make it to Worlds or the Olympics (and the cost of training for the years it takes to get there)!
     
  13. C_T_T_

    C_T_T_ Well-Known Member

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    Sometimes if you aren't progressing but it takes away some of the enjoyment. When I was 13/14 and was skating every day, I had a few doubles, was close to the rest and had moved up 4 levels in 3 years. When I was 15, circumstances away from skating meant I had to cut way back and could only skate twice a week. Not only did that stop me making any progress but meant I was going backwards. I never thought I was going anywhere with skating but it took a lot of the fun out of it and I considered stopping. Sadly I became ill around the same time and the decision was taken out of my hands.
     
  14. Firefly123

    Firefly123 New Member

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    Well, that's kind of what I was trying to say. I understand that the ideal for competition skating is the "perfect" element (be it jump, footwork, or spin); however, I do think that this ideal tens to get in the way of fun/progress, (and, for some, can even be an excuse to avoid trying harder items). That said, I don't advocate skaters throwing themselves willy-nilly around the ice, getting hurt, and being a danger to others :yikes: .....But I do think that the adults tend to error on the side of "perfection" while the kids tend to just "go for it." I believe this is more psychological than physical. Adults tend to be more follow the rule/perfection/do it by the book types, while kids just go for it. Yes, there needs to be a standard, especially in a judged event....But sometimes adhering too strictly to this standard can stand in the way of progress and enjoyment, at least I think so....
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2011
  15. Artifice

    Artifice Guest

    Extremes behavior are never good. Being too much into perfection prevents the skater from trying harder things, and going too fast into hard stuff can lead to nothing neither.
    It's up to the coach and/or the adult skater to know when it's ok to try for difficulties, a balance between risk and technic is necessary.
     
  16. kigali

    kigali New Member

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    Thank you for this. I see so many 13-14-year-olds skating with seemingly permanent frowns at freestyle sessions because they've realized they're probably never going to make it to the Olympics, and they don't see skating for the sake of skating (fun, exercise, socialization, developing goals and ambitions, etc) as worthwhile anymore, but they feel they have to do it because they've invested enough time and money into it, and it's really sad. Parents are a huge factor, obviously.
     
  17. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Yes that Olympic dream which reality determines is not going to happen for pretty much most skaters. It is the rare few that make it to that level.

    That is one advantage adults have over kids is that they do it because they just want to do it. The only pressure is on themselves. Sometimes they just want to be able to skate around without falling over and good on them for that. I know that was my first goal when I started skating (however reality can determine otherwise).
     
  18. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    Reading this thread, I am thinking if I were to skate under ijs rather than 6.0 I would get a negative score. I wonder if that is possible.
     
  19. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    You will still get something because any negative GOEs are taken off the base value. You will still get something for the element.

    Although I suppose if your combined PCS and TES were under 5 and then you fell on your butt about 6 times (1 point deduction on each), then yes you could end up in the negative.
     
  20. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    Hmm, well I don't fall much, but I don't think any of my jumps would get any points, if they don't get a base value, can they not get a negative GOE?

    That makes me feel a little better. I'd probably score whatever the value of a bad scratch spin is...

    Thank goodness the US still uses 6.0 for low levels...
     
  21. zaphyre14

    zaphyre14 Well-Known Member

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    If the jump is deemed to be "of no value" than whatever the GOEs that were given are not counted and are replaced on the Protocol with "-"

    It is possible to get a negative score if the skater gets no value for any of the technical elements and the deductions for falls exceeds the value of the PCS total.
     
  22. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    Someone got a negative score at the ISU international adult competition in Europe last year.
     
  23. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    We also use 6.0 for lower levels, using SkateScore. Although I do think you could use the ISUCalc program to come up with some form of system that would enable a result but just use it in a different way.
     
  24. Doubletoe

    Doubletoe Well-Known Member

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    Duplicate post. Sorry!
     
  25. purple skates

    purple skates Shadow dancing

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    What was the first post. :shuffle:
     
  26. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    The first post was so amazing it developed a cloak of invisibility.