Choreo step sequence and choreo spirals

Discussion in 'Moves In The Field' started by hanca, Feb 20, 2011.

  1. Firefly123

    Firefly123 New Member

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    Applauding Australian system. :cheer: Since program content is so harshly limited by level under the USFS adult system there really is no reason not to allow this.... Except loss in testing revenue and/or possibility of an adult with strong athletic skills "getting away" with poor edges, aka. skating skills, (as if jumps and spins on skates have noting to so with skating). (Sigh). But there you have it.

    :( Yup. :(

    P.S. If I ever skated under this system I'd definitely be one to take the Spiral Seq over the footwork any day.... Spirals very easy for me. Footwork, um, not so much....:rofl:

    Also, not sure why adults are so very concerned with quality... Kids do the items and then add the quality. You need a cake before you can put icing on it. No one lands perfect axels, does perfect flying camels etc. when they first do them. Sometime this takes years... Why not get the item, and then worry about the quality? I find this is one of the biggest problems with adult skaters and what really differs between them and the kids...
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2011
  2. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    You really don't get it, do you?

    You don't "do the item and then add the quality". If you are not doing the item correctly to begin with, the quality is not going to magically appear later on. And your characterization of adults as being too concerned about quality to actually do the "item" shows that you obviously haven't spent a lot of time with adult skaters.
  3. C_T_T_

    C_T_T_ Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for your reply. Thats what I thought. To me it seems perfectly natural that many adult skaters would be getting -goe for elements. I don't mean to offend anyone by that because I know there are many great adult skaters out there but I am recognising how difficult it is to get to that standard.

    Like you said there is no way to make everyone happy with the system. COP wasn't designed with lower levels in mind whether thats adults or children. In the UK most lower competitions still use 6.0. There are advantages and disadvantages to both.
  4. Firefly123

    Firefly123 New Member

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    No. I do not. :confused: If you mean I don't agree with you, then you are right. I don't.

    Are you kidding? No one does any skill with perfect quality the first time they try it. No one. That is what practice and repetition are for (under the guidance of a coach, of course.) :D


    Actually, I see quite a few of them doing the same items....Trying to get them "perfect"....And never trying anything different or more complicated, (except footwork), or falling on a few attempts at harder jumps and then going back to the "safe" items because they are not "perfect" yet. For some, (Yes, I said some. Not all. Some.) adults it is a convenient excuse not to risk getting hurt. Most kids do not do this. They land a double one day and have to be stopped from trying a triple the next. (Of course I am "generalizing" ...but most of you can recognize the truth in this statement.) There is a difference. Sometimes I think that the adults use the standard of "quality" or "perfection" to mask a fear of falling or getting hurt. (An understandable fear which in an adult can lead to major health problems, financial difficulties etc.) My problem is the attitude of adults that the quality is so gosh darned important. Get the item first, then worry about the quality. It is nice to say a high quality single loop is worth more to you than a sloppy double, but this is also a way to "hide" from the double. With this attitude, I guarantee you that you will never do one..... But it will make you feel better about yourself for doing the single and then putting down people who can do the double who may not hold up to your "quality" standard.
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2011
  5. Artifice

    Artifice Guest

    I get your point. Some skaters hide themselves behind the mask of quality when they know they can't go for higher level elements.
    Actually it's normal to focus more on what can advantage us. For adult skaters quality on simplier moves are probably their best potential and this is right.
    But when this fact has or/and hides jealousis, it's unfair to critic higher level elements just in order to minimize the performance of those who can do them.

    That being said a minimum of quality is necessary to worth the try. Trying difficult things is ok but they should meet technical standards. If the result is a difficult move done without any technic nor quality, it's not worth much.
    And unfortunately this problem happens sometimes with adult skaters.

    Kids can do something not perfectly but they usually do quality technical tries, simply because they follow their coaches advises who most of the time give right advises.
    Adult skaters sometimes coach themselves and believe they do right when it's actually not right.
  6. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    No, because it isn't true.

    Your problem is that you have a completely warped view of what skating is about, and that the rest of the world doesn't share your "attitude" - which is apparently the rest of the world's problem and not yours. You don't understand that doing a single jump well is important to being able to do a double and/or a triple well. And you also don't seem to understand that a "high quality single loop" *can* be worth more than a sloppy double. And if you think that adult skaters get their jollies from putting down skaters with more advanced moves than them - well, that's only more evidence of how little time you have actually spent around adult skaters.
  7. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    I think what Firefly is referring to is putting in elements that might not be quite right but they are in progress. Many skaters do this to test whether they can get the element in the program and give it a go because they have to do it some time, even if it isn't perfect.

    For example a skater might be working on a double salchow. The actual technique might be reasonable, but they do take their time getting into the jump, it might be small and the landing might pull around. However that is not to say the skater shouldn't try the jump. But after that they work on it, it becomes more consistent, does achieve better quality and the skater has more success with it.

    But I hear all sort of reasons from adults why they don't compete. One of the complaints is they want perfection. But it isn't a perfect world and I learnt a long time ago that I am never going to be perfect. I can only be the best I can be. So a skater who uses that as an excuse isn't going to get any sympathy from me.

    Whenever an adult skater tells me that they are not very good, I tell them that at least they are getting out there are doing it. And I always take the opportunity to compliment them on when they have improved on something, whether it be a jump, a spin or even a mohawk.
  8. Artifice

    Artifice Guest

    Totally agree with you Aussie willy.

    Going for competition takes guts and everyone who does that deserve respect. Those who said that they will compete when they have the moves perfectly right are hiding themselves and their fear or pride behind the quality mask. Those who compete also work on quality but they show their work at the same time.

    Agree about the fact to try an element in progress in competition. Nothing can be perfect at the very first try and there is always a first try.
    Also one shouldn't be too presomptuous and try something that is too far from the minimum quality standard.
    Double jumps are harder than simple jumps but a beautifull simple jump can also be harder to perform than a poor, sloppy underrotated double.
    Quality is not that easy to perform. Even, sometimes those who praise quality over everything else can't even perform the quality they are aiming at. Usually someone who does a simple element with high quality has the level to at least try a higher difficulty. But someone who tries a high difficulty move does not automatically manage to perform quality on a simplier element.

    There is a skater who has put some videos of her programs on internet. She tries double jumps but they are very sloppy, underrotated and done with bad technic. This skater was happy with her skate and did not understand why she received low scores. All her jumps were called as simple, she got deductions on her spins as well. And it was totally fair because obviously she did nothing at the minimum requested level. Clearly this skater has a wrong image of what she demonstrates and even of her real level which is not the one of double jumps but one of simple jumps not even quality ones.
    So, to say that it is important to have an objective view of what one does in reality.
  9. Firefly123

    Firefly123 New Member

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    I so agree! :D Actually, I meant what I said as a compliment. I think many of the adult skaters I see at the rink are actually capable of much more difficult items, but are so hung up on the "quality" issue or simply don't believe in themselves that they don't seem to progress as far as the could. :(

    I completely agree. In this case it is up to the skater/coach to choose whether or not to include more difficult (higher point) elements that are done poorly or to do the simpler items with more quality. That is an individual decision. Also, it depends upon the scoring system in place at the time. I have a video of the Olympics (2006?) where Scott Hamilton is commenting on Jeffery Buttle going for the quad even though he "knows he's gonna fall" but that if he makes the full 4 rotations it is worth some points....He fell, but rotated it. Got the bronze. :) USFS adult scoring system seems to reward quality overall, so maybe that strategy would be counterproductive for most adult skaters. I can't say. I skate ISI. ...... But you are right. If the skater is marked down,then they should be honest with themselves as to why. If I skated USFS I would throw in everything but the kitchen sink...Because that is my personality/philosophy etc....But if I came in last then I'd have to accept that because when you enter the competition you agree to be judged by that standard even if you don't like it.
  10. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Again I agree with Artifice and Firefly on adults doing stuff that is beyond them and then not understanding why they don't get the marks.

    One adult commented to me about why she didn't get her axel counted when a coach had said to her that she had landed it. I told her that she had massive pre-rotation on the take off which meant she got no value for the element. I think sometimes skaters don't understand that is not just about landing the jump but the technique as a whole.
  11. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    But this is not exclusively a problem with adult skaters. Using it as an excuse to bash adult skaters (not talking about your comments, Aussie Willy) is wrong, when younger skaters and their coaches and/or parents have the same problem.
    flutzilla1 and (deleted member) like this.
  12. Artifice

    Artifice Guest

    Yep ! One should be responsible for one's decision on elements put in the program.
    Honesty with oneself is important because, afterall, the adult skater is the one who cares the most about his/her result/improvment/skills.
  13. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Oh it happens with everyone and I don't think anyone is using it as an excuse. Definately not just an adult skater issue.

    Although I have to say when it comes to obsessiveness over detail and analysis over judging, I have found it a lot more with adults than parents, coaches or kids. As long as you can explain it, the parents and kids are quite happy with what you tell them. But some adults I have encountered will argue non-stop on the smallest point. And I say this as an adult skater myself.
  14. Firefly123

    Firefly123 New Member

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    Definitely. I was interested in this thread because,even though I don't skate USFS, it is fun to read what the other skaters think about the new spiral vs footwork sequence rules. Under ISI, for my level, I have to include one footwork sequence in the routine. :yikes: Spirals are optional. I wish it were the other way around since I would definitely be in the "spiral" camp, but then those are the rules... :rollin: (Not sure what the roll is for, but I like this emote, so I put it here. I guess it represents me rolling along the ice after tripping myself for the 1000th time on that darned footwork sequence.) ;)
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2011
  15. Doubletoe

    Doubletoe Well-Known Member

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    I agree that we adult skaters (as well as kid skaters) should try to learn new elements instead of just perfecting the ones we can already do. However, I do *not* advise attempting a jump in competition if it is consistently underrotated or takes off from the wrong edge. I also don't think a skater should attempt a spin in competition of he/she cannot achieve a position that will get credit, hold it for enough revolutions, or execute it well enough to avoid getting -2 GOE. Attempting a difficult element that one cannot execute well enough for full value is going to result in a lower technical score than doing simpler elements that one can get full value for. It's just math, not fear or perfectionism. And BTW, I know plenty of adults who are not perfectionists. If I had a dollar for every axel that finished the last half turn on the ice or every sit spin that looked more like a slight squat. . .
  16. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    Maybe someone oughta tell that to Patrick Chan.


    *

    This thread is honestly depressing. At 22, my coach thinks I could probably scrape into the regular competitions, but I know by the time I get my higher levels, I'll be Adult division.

    My spirals will never be perfect. I'll be lucky if they ever get above the level of my hip. I've never been naturally flexible and trying to become flexible from scratch at my age is hard yards. But learning that suddenly, the height of my free leg could make or break my score, even if it is above my hip, is extremely discouraging.

    I'm already at a disadvantage because I'm older. When I do my Aussie Skate tests, I'm automatically tested harder - because for anything involving a glide, the rule is you have to hold it for the length of your body, and most judges at my rink prefer two body lengths. A 22-year-old is much taller than a 7-year-old.

    I work hard. I work very hard. I spend every minute I can spare doing some kind of work towards my skating, whether that be stretching during class, cutting it fine to work from practice, or going to practice every day.

    I know I'll never be at the same level as I could have been had I started at 4. But I think I could never be as good as I am now, even at my low level, had I done that. I don't think I'd have been able to comprehend the amount of work, and taken it on so willingly, even two years ago.

    It's depressing to know there are judges out there who will automatically never give me a positive GOE because I'm an adult. It's depressing to know that there are judges out there who will call me on underrotation or edges even if I didn't, just because I'm an adult. And it's depressing to know there are people out there who think I can never be anything in this sport, just because I'm an adult. You may not have said it, but you're thinking it.

    But you know what? You can knock me down. I'll get back up. You score me badly, I'll try harder next time. I've fought too hard to get to this point, and I'll keep on fighting. If that means gritting my teeth and pretending a punching bag is a judge who'll never give me a positive GOE, so be it. My road may not lead to Sochi (as a skater at least), but I will control where it goes, and it's not going to the scrapheap.
  17. C_T_T_

    C_T_T_ Well-Known Member

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    But a 22 year old will have much more power than than a 7 year old so so it is prefectly fair to expect you to cover more ice.



    Thats not what was said at all!!!! We are simply recognising how difficult it can be to get +GOE, no edge calls or underrotations. If you do it right, you'll get the credit.

    .

    Again absolutely not true! Most of here are adult skaters. We skate because we love the sport no matter what level we skate at. I skated as a child and have recently returned to the ice. I know how difficult it is trying to get back to a simillar to where a left off. I can't imagine starting from scratch at this age and the complete respect for anyone who takes it up later in life. There is a lady at my rink in her seventies who skates twice a week. She doesn't leve the barrier much unless a coach is with her but I think she is one of the most amazing skaters out there. I only hope I can still have the nerve to do something I love when I'm that age.

    Good! For 99.9% of skaters out there, whether you start at 4 or 64, this is what its about. Only a tiny, tiny minority will make it to the top.
  18. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    At 22 in Australia you can skate in adult divisions if you choose. But it is your decision.

    However you are wrong to assume that judges don't give adult skaters positive GOEs. I have already made the point that judges will judge what they see. If a jump deserves a positive GOE the skater will get a positive GOE. If they don't they won't get it.

    But don't blame the judges when they can only judge what the skaters put out there.
  19. Doubletoe

    Doubletoe Well-Known Member

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    I saw just snippets of your post in others' responses before reading the original post, and now that I've read it, I actually laughed because I thought you were my age! At 22, all this talk of being too old comes off just a tad dramatic. :lol:
    How is it that you have missed the many positive messages posted in this thread? I was never naturally flexible, either, but I did the splits for the first time at age 42, thanks to some determination and a consistent, correct stretching routine. That same year, I got a level 4 on my spiral sequence *with +GOE* in spite of my advanced "adulthood." :p I never get my jumps called as under rotated because they aren't. Then again, I don't put a jump in my program if my coach doesn't tell me it's fully rotated. The standards are the same for the adults and the kids. The kids get jumps called as underrotated, too!
    You are 22. There is nothing you are too old for, and the only thing holding you back is your own doubt. It just takes hard work and time. . . and you have time! :)
    Diane Mars and (deleted member) like this.
  20. jjane45

    jjane45 New Member

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    Natural fearlessness also matters, I am not likely to experiment the crazy footwork my friend puts together just for fun (or landing axels on his own without lessons). But yes, at age 22 there is really tons of time unless your goal is becoming an elite skater landing triple jumps. Add persistence and determination, there is your recipe for success!
  21. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    I will agree with the others about 22 not being old. I am twice that age - old enough to be your mother!!!!
  22. purple skates

    purple skates Shadow dancing

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    I wouldn't be so quick to pounce on the age issue. I know 20 year olds who are cautious and 50 year olds who are fearless. Each of us has our own limitations and strengths that may have nothing to do with our age. That's what makes adult skaters so unique.
    manleywoman and (deleted member) like this.
  23. Artifice

    Artifice Guest

    Well, there are exceptions everywhere but it's common to have more fear with age. At 50 one has more fear than a 25 years old. That is normal.

    Just look at the two categories : young children between 6 and 10 and adults.
    Among the children look at their level in comparition with each other, and then do the same for the adult, say yourself. The best children go for difficulties, they try, fall hard again and again. The best adults try but they fall less, they are a little bit more tentative. And imagine that these adults who are among the best in their age category would actually be the same than these good children with 20 or more years !
    Age is for something, one can't hide behind this reality that makes things harder for adults, like other factors. There is a reason why adult starters will never reach the level some kids can.
    But get the relative balance of what you do and look at how good you are compared to other adults and think that this is the relative level you would have had if you were a kid.

    A good adult skater (who started as an adult) would have been a good young skater. As well as a low level adult skater would have been a low level young skater. The "good" and "low" qualifications beeing relative to the age group.
  24. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    I don't think you can make that assumption at all.
  25. Doubletoe

    Doubletoe Well-Known Member

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    Well, there will never be any way of knowing for sure, so it's as good an assumption as any. As an adult onset skater, I think assuming my skating ability in relation to my fellow adults would have been equivalent if we were all 8-year olds is a lot better than living in the world of "shoulda, woulda, coulda" just because I didn't start as a kid.
  26. ioana

    ioana Well-Known Member

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    I'm not a big fan of "shoulda, woulda, coulda" in general, but adults have lives outside the rink and based on that, there are a lot more variables that affect what level they get to/how quickly, etc. When I used to work 12 hour-days on a regular basis, I wouldn't really get to skate that much, so it took me a year and a half to pass one of the lower tests (pre-juv, I think). Once I changed jobs and had more time to skate, I passed intermediate moves in about a year. That doesn't mean I suddenly became a better skater; I just had more time to practice.

    Kids -in general- train similar amounts of time, so it's somewhat easier to compare abilities. Adults have different commitments and priorities outside the rink, so there are more things to consider when you compare them besides the level they actually reach after a certain time.
  27. Doubletoe

    Doubletoe Well-Known Member

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    It's true that adults have varying outside commitments that affect our skating time. On the other hand, there are plenty of kids who would progress a lot faster if their parents were willing/able to drive them to the rink for practice every morning at 5 or 6am and pay for 8 lessons a week.

    I think one thing we can all agree on is that not all skaters are afforded the same opportunities, and we ultimately just have to make the most of the ice time we have and give ourselves credit for every bit of progress we make! And of course it helps to remember that there's always someone out there who isn't getting to skate at all and thinks we are lucky. . . :)
  28. purple skates

    purple skates Shadow dancing

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    :respec:
  29. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    I wonder how you're defining scrapheap.

    Never getting triple jumps or representing your country internationally? Most kids won't either.

    Never getting double jumps or reaching the middle competition levels? Again, many kids won't get there either. But you might -- don't give up hope.

    Competing as an adult rather than standard track? Depending on what age limits your federation puts on various competition levels, and what skill level you're able to reach, that could be your own choice. But if you define adult competition as a scrapheap, what does that say about all the older adult skaters?

    Not getting credit for elements because of judges' biases against adults? I haven't seen that happen.

    Not getting any credit for elements not performed according to strict IJS standards? That even happens to elite skaters at times.

    But the elite standards are not necessarily appropriate for lower level competition. In the US, all competitions at levels where single and double jumps are usually cheated or where 3 revolutions per foot and 2 revolution per basic position on spins are rare are judged under 6.0, for both kids and adults. I'd like to see adaptations of the IJS to give appropriate partial credit for partially successful elements at those levels -- for both kids and adults.

    If you're competing under a system that uses elite standards at low levels, then compare how your elements are treated to kids with similar skill levels, not to those who are already at the level of rotating clean double jumps (unless you're already at that level too).

    Does a 15-year-old who skates the same number of hours per week and struggles with the same skills you do belong on a scrapheap? Even if she's having fun and making slow progress but can't or won't put in enough time to reach high competition levels?
  30. ioana

    ioana Well-Known Member

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    *raises hand* can I temporarily exclude myself from that since I am off the ice until after ACL and MCL knee surgery and for a good 4 months after that ? :p
  31. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    I always find it disappointing to hear about a young skater or parent of a skater who talks about giving up the sport because they feel the kid isn't progressing in terms of competitions or tests. It is sad in a way that they have lost that reason why they took up the sport in the first place which was because they enjoyed doing it. And I really hate when they ask you if they should give up because you are a judge and they think that you might be some sort of expert on the subject.
  32. Doubletoe

    Doubletoe Well-Known Member

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    Statistically speaking, everyone should give up the sport, based on the percentage of talented skaters who actually ever make it to Worlds or the Olympics (and the cost of training for the years it takes to get there)!
  33. C_T_T_

    C_T_T_ Well-Known Member

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    Sometimes if you aren't progressing but it takes away some of the enjoyment. When I was 13/14 and was skating every day, I had a few doubles, was close to the rest and had moved up 4 levels in 3 years. When I was 15, circumstances away from skating meant I had to cut way back and could only skate twice a week. Not only did that stop me making any progress but meant I was going backwards. I never thought I was going anywhere with skating but it took a lot of the fun out of it and I considered stopping. Sadly I became ill around the same time and the decision was taken out of my hands.
  34. Firefly123

    Firefly123 New Member

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    Well, that's kind of what I was trying to say. I understand that the ideal for competition skating is the "perfect" element (be it jump, footwork, or spin); however, I do think that this ideal tens to get in the way of fun/progress, (and, for some, can even be an excuse to avoid trying harder items). That said, I don't advocate skaters throwing themselves willy-nilly around the ice, getting hurt, and being a danger to others :yikes: .....But I do think that the adults tend to error on the side of "perfection" while the kids tend to just "go for it." I believe this is more psychological than physical. Adults tend to be more follow the rule/perfection/do it by the book types, while kids just go for it. Yes, there needs to be a standard, especially in a judged event....But sometimes adhering too strictly to this standard can stand in the way of progress and enjoyment, at least I think so....
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2011
  35. Artifice

    Artifice Guest

    Extremes behavior are never good. Being too much into perfection prevents the skater from trying harder things, and going too fast into hard stuff can lead to nothing neither.
    It's up to the coach and/or the adult skater to know when it's ok to try for difficulties, a balance between risk and technic is necessary.
  36. kigali

    kigali New Member

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    Thank you for this. I see so many 13-14-year-olds skating with seemingly permanent frowns at freestyle sessions because they've realized they're probably never going to make it to the Olympics, and they don't see skating for the sake of skating (fun, exercise, socialization, developing goals and ambitions, etc) as worthwhile anymore, but they feel they have to do it because they've invested enough time and money into it, and it's really sad. Parents are a huge factor, obviously.
  37. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Yes that Olympic dream which reality determines is not going to happen for pretty much most skaters. It is the rare few that make it to that level.

    That is one advantage adults have over kids is that they do it because they just want to do it. The only pressure is on themselves. Sometimes they just want to be able to skate around without falling over and good on them for that. I know that was my first goal when I started skating (however reality can determine otherwise).
  38. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    Reading this thread, I am thinking if I were to skate under ijs rather than 6.0 I would get a negative score. I wonder if that is possible.
  39. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    You will still get something because any negative GOEs are taken off the base value. You will still get something for the element.

    Although I suppose if your combined PCS and TES were under 5 and then you fell on your butt about 6 times (1 point deduction on each), then yes you could end up in the negative.
  40. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    Hmm, well I don't fall much, but I don't think any of my jumps would get any points, if they don't get a base value, can they not get a negative GOE?

    That makes me feel a little better. I'd probably score whatever the value of a bad scratch spin is...

    Thank goodness the US still uses 6.0 for low levels...