Choreo step sequence and choreo spirals

Discussion in 'Moves In The Field' started by hanca, Feb 20, 2011.

  1. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    I can't find anywhere any information on choreo step sequence and choreo spirals. Where do I find this info?

    I seem to remember that both those don't have levels, only GOE, but that's all I know. What are the rules about choreo step sequence and choreo spirals?

    How many spirals needs to be in choreo spirals and for how long to hold them? How do I increase the GOE if I wanted let's say plus 3 on this? (always modest! :lol: )

    What does the choreo step sequence need to contact and how to increase the GOE?

    Thank you very much.
     
  2. C_T_T_

    C_T_T_ Well-Known Member

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    Your choroeo spirals need to be held for 6 seconds in total, so you can do either 2 for 3 seconds each or one for 6 seconds. I'm not sure I've ever seen a check list for GOE on spirals but you'll want good clean deep edges, good position (not nessecarily ultra flexible but with your back arched, leg fully extended etc) and good speed.

    This is from the ISU technical rules

    ETA: I tell I lie....from ISU communication 1611 referring to GOE

     
  3. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    What I don't understand, is:
    In adult skating there is the requirement "one choreo spirals or choreo step sequence". Why should any adult bother to try to learn any harder steps, if you can do one nice spiral, hold it for 6 seconds and have the same amount of points? (and if by any chance the adult is quite flexible and the spiral has nice lines, speed and good edge, it may even have better GOE than the choreo step sequence would have).

    Is it just me or does it look like much easier option for the same amount of points? Doing 6 seconds of choreo spiral also takes less time than doing the choreo step sequence, so there will be more time to deal with the other elements...
     
  4. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    Because some older and/or less flexible adults can't get their free leg higher than their hip, or hold it there for six seconds. Or can't do a nice looking spiral even if they can get their leg high enough. Having a step sequence as an alternative lets those adults gain the points that they would lose if they couldn't do a spiral.
     
  5. C_T_T_

    C_T_T_ Well-Known Member

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    I wasn't aware of that. For some people though a spiral would be harder. Many, well some, adults wouldn't have the flexibility to do really good spirals so for some a step sequence would be the easier choice. I could do an ok spiral but I could do a much much better step sequence. I'm not sure exactly what you would need to include in a step sequence at that level but since it isn't being assessed by levels I suppose there is no reason to include harder steps. I guess what it comes down to is COP wasn't designed with adults skaters in mind and in my opinion adult skating can never really be a level playing ground as everyone will have to skating at different times, thorugh difeerent routes.
     
  6. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    Well, my spiral is not beautiful either, I think it is just 'ok'. But I noticed last year in adult competitions they very rarely gave positive GOE for step sequence anyway, more often it was around 0 GOE, so although my spiral is nothing special, I don't think my steps would receive more points if the judges are reluctant to go to positive GOE. So I am just wondering why bother with steps. It seems to me that the skaters here go quite frequently for steps because it is the requirements for tests, but in competition there is the choice now...
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2011
  7. C_T_T_

    C_T_T_ Well-Known Member

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    Well perhaps in your case you would do better with the spiral and don't need to bother with steps. I've never been to an adult competition so can't really judge but assuming I was doing a step seq of mainly mowhawks and 3turns (if we're not being graded on difficulty why make things harder) I would like to think I could hit about half of those bullet points. If I did spirals, I might beable to do them with speed and flow but my leg just about being parallel to the ice and more than likely being bent would negate that. So different strokes for different folks. If your getting the choice make it work for you.
     
  8. LLOS

    LLOS New Member

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    I recently did my first competition under COP, it was fun to know how they judge my program. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNB4m1BrodA I did both step and spiral sequence, I like doing both very much so I included both but only steps had points. I got -1 GOE but I thought I did it well exept an unnessesary extra step, maybe thats was the minus. They do give levels and it was 1 of course, no clue what level 2 would be, maybe an adult can't do it? I don't know if I can do spirals better but I can hold them any time needed und above hip level. Unfortunately an 1.40min program doesn't allow such long time elements otherwise I would need to remove other elements, to fit everything in 1.40 is very difficult :(

    How many points would I get for a spiral sequence?
     
  9. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    From a judging perspective, I have very rarely given an adult skater a +1 in anything. I think for an adult to get base value is actually pretty good because it means they are doing elements that you can't deduct on and they are competently completed.

    As for having the option of steps or spirals, I would much rather do steps. I do a crap spiral but my steps are okay. It is up to you.

    But I also think if the steps work well with the music, then it might add to the PCS in terms of the interpretation and choreography (that is if they skater does the steps to the music). And good quality steps can also enhance the Skating Skills PCS. So I think there are a couple of strategies that a skater can use steps to help boost their marks in other areas.
     
  10. frbskate63

    frbskate63 New Member

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    The other thing for adults to bear in mind when choosing steps or spirals is that with steps, unless you fall or fail to cover enough ice (which is only half the rink at bronze and silver level), steps will almost always meet the minimum requirement to be counted. Whereas it's extremly easy to have a wobble on a spiral that means it's not held in the required position for long enough, so doesn't get counted. I have seen a lot of adult spiral sequences get no level, but it's very rare on steps.
     
  11. Artifice

    Artifice Guest

    Probably it can be due to the fact that some adult skaters really don't deserve +1 but I also believe that judges are harder with adult skaters because they just don't think an adult skater can deserve a +1 eventhough the element itself is good enough to get a +1. Simply a matter of preconcieved idea...
    Whereas some very young skaters get easily +1 eventhough their element is objectively not better than an adult who would do the same thing but without any positive GOE.
     
  12. Stormy

    Stormy Well-Known Member

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    I am glad you're not a judge around here. I've gotten +1 and (gasp!) +2 on elements and I am certainly not an outstanding adult skater. Do you honestly not see adult skaters doing elements worthy of +1 in anything? What levels are you judging?
     
  13. jp1andonly

    jp1andonly Well-Known Member

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    We have adult skaters in canada getting +1 and +2. last year when you could get levels of spirals we had lots of level 2, and some level 3s as well....

     
  14. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    We don't have that frequently adult skaters getting positive GOE, only rarely.

    This is the results of our british adult championships, if you want to look at the protocols:

    http://www.johnds.org/BAC_11/

    From looking at the protocols you would think how badly the skaters skated, but when watching the DVD, it is not any worse than skaters from USA and Canada, so I assume that the judging is much stricter here.
     
  15. C_T_T_

    C_T_T_ Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I was just looking at that. It wouldn't inspire me to want to go there, how depressing to get that back afterwards.
     
  16. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    It was actually worse last year. Nearly whole bronze category did not have their jumps called at all!
     
  17. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    It probably is the standard of skating. Adults don't have to do tests here to compete in the Adult divisions in Australia. They enter the division of choice based on what elements they plan to do. So you get a really mixed bag of competency in any division.

    But maybe you are just doing your elements really well and being justifiably rewarded. :)

    ETA - you can check out the results for the Adult Demonstration Event at Australian Nationals - http://www.isa.org.au/Results/2010_Demo/results.htm. I was Judge No 3. But you can see that it was a pretty consistent panel.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2011
  18. jjane45

    jjane45 New Member

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    Insightful thread! And very surprised how much judging standards differ from region to region...
     
  19. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it is the standart of skating. Here the adults do the same tests as children, and most of the adults have passed their jumps in tests, and then the jumps were not called at the competition (especially last year nearly everyone in bronze category).

    http://www.johnds.org/BAC_10/BACDay2html/index.htm


    This year the rules for underrotation changed; if you look at the protocols (see the link in my previous post), it seems to me that they did not bother with <, they went straight for <<. Although I do agree that someone may underrotate more than half of the revolution, I don't believe that every skater who underrotated was underrotating more than half of revolution. So I think the judging here is a bit suspect.

    As a result, the skater would not get even something very tiny for the jump, they would get 0 for the jump. I haven't skated in this competition this year, so it is not like if I am upset about my results and therefore screaming that it is unfair... but I do find it fascinating that, in my opinion, the adults are here judged much more harshly than children. In fact, the value of the PCS is what wins you the competition at the lower levels. It seems to me that if you send a dancer to compete at free skating and the dancer will get 0 for all four jumps elements, she still would be able to win it based on two spins, step sequence and PCS. I think that's wrong. Why bother with the jumps then?
     
  20. LLOS

    LLOS New Member

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    I wonder if it would be better to adjust the COP system to adult skaters so that one can work on getting more points, the levels would not rise at all.

    If an adult gets in components a 2, is that already considered as good?
     
  21. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    Well, if you look at the winner of bronze category, she got TES 3.96 (with 7 jumps in it)and PCS 8.94. Another skater in the same category had only Salchow, toe loop and toe loop -toe loop combination (which in theory shouldn't be recognised because you are not supposed to use any jump 3 times), and got TES 3.74 and PCS 7.99. Am I the only one who thinks that there is something wrong with the marking?
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2011
  22. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    With judging jumps, you are not just looking at underrotations as a reason for deductions. You also need to take into account the preparation, take off, air position and landing.

    So a skater may get around on the jump to backwards, but if the rest is poor quality, then you can justify a deduction. From the ISU Communication 1611poor speed, height, distance, air position alone can incur a -1 to -2 GOE. If a skater has reasonable quality of those, at a minimum then you could go a 0 GOE.

    Like I said with Australia, skaters don't even have to test to compete at a certain adult level. They just enter the division that they are doing relevant elements, regardless of the quality.

    Also if you are looking at a disparity between TES and PCS, it could be that some skaters don't have good quality elements, but maybe they have strong PCS. It is quite possible.

    As for LLOS's question about components, I found that if a skater is very good, I tend to go into the threes. But most adults are sitting in the twos and that is okay. If they are not good then I am in the ones.
     
  23. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    My impression is that at adult bronze level components in the 2s would be good, at silver level they would be normal, and at gold level I would expect high 2s or 3s.

    And of course different judges might use the scale differently, especially if they're not used to judging at those levels.

    Obviously the Skating Skills score might be significantly different from, say, Performance/Execution or Choreography, if you have an adult who has a lot of off-ice performing experience, or alternatively one who is very shy and more interested in technique than performance.
     
  24. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    I do realise that you have to take into account poor speed, height, distance, air position etc. However, for those the skater would get minus GOE, and the jump would still be worth something (even if very little). What I don't get is how often << was used and never < . You don't give << for poor speed, air position etc, and I just don't think that everyone underrotated more than 1/2 rotation. I would believe that some were < and some <<, but it looks that the judges claim that all those jumps didn't deserve anything at all (not even tiny bit of point), which I just struggle to believe.
     
  25. Doubletoe

    Doubletoe Well-Known Member

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    Back to the original question, I believe at 2011 U.S. Adult Nationals the step sequence will still get levels under IJS; only the spiral sequence will be scored as 2.0 point choreo spirals. That gives an advantage to anyone who can get a level 2 on a step sequence, or even get +GOE on a level 1 step sequence (1.8 BV +1 GOE = 2.3) . There are a number of skaters who have gotten levels 2 or 3 on step sequences at A.N., especially among the Masters skaters.

    I haven't been working on footwork for the past 5-6 years, so I'm still doing a spiral sequence, even though the removal of the levels has really hurt my score. The first year U.S. Adult Nationals was scored under IJS, I got 4.15 points for a SpSq4 with +GOE. In my most recent IJS competition, I got 2.5 for a ChSpSq with +GOE. If they change the step sequence scoring to choreo for next season, then I'll probably just start doing whichever type of sequence best fits the music I choose.
     
  26. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    I must have misread you. Because how I read your previous post was that you were saying that if the jump wasn't under rotated they should have been getting 0 GOE.

    But I just had a look at the protocols and that looks weird. I think there could be questions asked to the referee about that. The only thing you could say is the technical panel were consistent.

    If you look at the elements from the Australian Nationals, you will see that most of the adults got called "e" on their lutzes.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2011
  27. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    hmm, here in the UK both of them were choreo. You have a choice of either choreo steps or choreo spiral. So the same starting points.

    Here you would have to work on your steps sequence for tests though (if you decided that you want to test).

    Back to my original question, I just wondered why would anyone bother with the steps, if it takes more time, and very likely wouldn't be getting any better GOE than steps. But if at your country you still can get levels at steps...
     
  28. Doubletoe

    Doubletoe Well-Known Member

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    It was a timing issue. The USFSA rules for the coming season are decided every year in May, and that was before the new ISU rules came out, so there was no chance to adjust the U.S. adult rules to accommodate the new ISU choreo spiral rule. The result was that the spiral sequence is automatically a choreo spsq but the step sequence is still leveled (since there's never more than one step sequence in our adult programs). It will be interesting to see if they adjust the 2012 U.S. adult rules in May to make all step sequences choreo as well.
    But even so, I know some adult skaters--including some very good ones--who prefer step sequences over spirals. Either they are men and consider steps more masculine, or they just hate spirals (usually due to a bad face plant experience, poor flexibility or some sort of hip or back problem).
     
  29. Artifice

    Artifice Guest

    Components marks appears pretty generous IMO. At least compared to what I see in other competitions.

    Yes it does.

    That's true and that's something to think about.

    I don't think so. Points in themselves are not important, there is no reason to adjust the system for specific populations. Rules are rules, skating requires the same skills for everyone. The best get higher marks, the bad get lower marks, that's normal.

    It can be, but, looking at various competitions results, it appears that those marks differs a lot from competitions to competitions. Standards are different. I don't have any official explanation for that but this is what happens.
     
  30. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    But I do think points are important, on any level. If you are skating at bronze level, you get for toe loop and Salchow 0.4, for Loop and flip 0.5 and for Lutz 0.6. (Assuming that the jumps for reasonably good and you are getting 0 GOE, because realistically you are not going to get positive GOE on jumps as an adult on bronze level. You can check the score sheet from our competitions for the last two years).

    So if you fall, it is very likely that you will get << for that jump (because you probably fell because it was underrotated and as you see, it doesn't look that they are aware here that they can give you only <) and then you get -1for the fall. That means that appart of that one jumping elements being 0, you also succesfully erased two another clean well executed jumps. Considering that the winner of the bronze category had TES only 3.86, a fall would erase her 1/4 of her TES. I think that's a very expensive mistake. It is the same like if you wanted on elite level take for fall -10. That's far too much.

    You are saying " The best get higher marks, the bad get lower marks, that's normal." Really?
    Imagine, you have two skaters. They have comparable spins and step sequences, the difference is only in jumps. First skater does only one Salchow and one Toe loop (because this skater can't do anything else from jumps.) Then you have the second skater who does Salchow, toe loop, flip and loop, but unfortunately falls on the flip. If both skaters have the same skatings skills (get the same PCS), then the first skater will win in total because the first skater would get for jumps in total 0.8, whereas the second skater would get nothing for the flip, 0.4+0.4+0.5-1=0.3.
    Is the first skater really better when he/she can't do anything else except of toe loop and Salchow, or is the second one better because he/she did succesfully toe loop, Salchow, loop and mistake on flip... I know, you may say he/she shouldn't fall, but is the fall really that big mistake, relatively to anything else the skater has done well? Is it as big mistake to justify taking 1/4 of someone's TES? (I am talking theoretically, I don't have anyone particular in mind).

    I don't think this system is working very well for lower levels.