China - The new force in singles?

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Hedwig, Oct 5, 2011.

  1. Hedwig

    Hedwig Rarely here anymore but I try to be better!

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    Yes. He only learned it this season. Along with the triple axel, I believe?

    Yan Han and He Zhang are amazing. :swoon:
    I am really enjoying the Chinese men this season.

    And Song was outstanding!! Never had him in my predictions before but now with that skate, his amazing quads and winning the free...wow.
     
  2. Seerek

    Seerek Well-Known Member

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    How long then does David Wilson currently spend on Zhang and Geng's programs? I am guessing not a heck of a lot (and certainly less than a month)? Interesting that Zijun Li got Karen Kwan as choreographer vs. the others in Mingzhu Li's training base.
     
  3. mrinalini

    mrinalini Active Member

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    After seeing Song Nan for the first time at CoC, I was blown away by his jumps and it'll be very depressing if he ends up having a career like Li Chengjiang's. I saw glimpses of artistry in Song so I'm sure his presentations skills can be further developed, but I'm not sure he'll have the resources to do so in China. So it begs the question, why aren't Chinese skaters sent for long-term foreign coaching, e.g. the way Yu-Na was? Worries over divided loyalties? Lack of funding?

    I find Li Zijun quite endearing, too, and it'll be sad if she becomes another Liu Yan. Ditto Han Yan and Jin Boyang (who I just saw - thanks Ziggy! - and found amazing). It'll be fun with another powerhouse country in singles skating in addition to the usual suspects.
     
  4. ~tapdancer~

    ~tapdancer~ Well-Known Member

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    I watched a Universal Sports episode of Cup of China and Peter Carruthers was talking about how China has embraced the sport of figure skating and take it very seriously. I'm not surprised they are becoming such a force in more than just pairs.
     
  5. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    I think it's politics more than money.

    Song Nan is actually quite expressive and his basics aren't bad. He just needs that extra push. Better choroegraphy and some polishing.

    I wish he worked with Kenji Miyamoto, Pasquale Camerlengo or Tom Dickson. Somebody creative and voidy.

    But he doesn't even have to go abroad. Wei Zhang, who choreographed fantastic programs for Sui/Han, would surely be able to come up with something more interesting than what Song has at the moment.
     
  6. luCN

    luCN New Member

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    well,I don't know how to explain it clearly in English,but it's complex environment in figure skating world here.it's not all depand on the federation.for some reason,coach is more important here.if the coach is the leader,he'll get more support,then their students can get more support and have more opportunities and time to go abroad to improve their skating skills...maybe that's why boys don't train abroad this summer like the girls,and maybe that's why S/H can't spend too much time on the basic skating skill but do too difficult elements together.they're not coached by Bin Yao.they must win,then their coach Bo Luan can get more support...
     
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  7. johndockley92

    johndockley92 New Member

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    <3 He Zhang's skating. it's amazing!
     
  8. Hedwig

    Hedwig Rarely here anymore but I try to be better!

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    Thank you for the insight. Very interesting! :)

    It is true that it seemed like Bo Luan was not very much in the picture at the moment but that all eyes still seem to be on Bin Yao.
    That is a bit sad for Chinese skating because the competition between different coaches and styles can only help, in my opinion.
     
  9. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    luCN, thanks very much for the insight, yes.

    The system seems quite top-down as I expected. I wish the federation focused more on the SKATERS' potential and not who their coach is and how they are judged to be doing.

    Back to He Zhang, here are his personal best performances (from this season):

    Short Program:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyUUiOlYjcM

    Free Skating:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RojXBlzQKHI

    I don't think I've ever seen a Chinese male skater who was that musical and expressive. And with such good basics too.

    It shows that Chinese coaches are getting better and better qualified and they are starting to pay more attention to the whole package and not just the jumps.

    I just love the short, there is a lot of upper body choreography and expression all the time. And elements are connected very well with transitions.

    Great job by Elvin Wong.

    The free is a bit more plain but still more complex than most and again, he's presenting it beautifully.

    And the whole package is there. Spins are good, steps are quite good.

    A very very exciting new talent. He's only just turned 15 so hopefully he'll manage to learn the triple axel in the next few seasons.
     
  10. feraina

    feraina Well-Known Member

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    The Chinese federation bosses were quoted saying to the media that they'll definitely send Nan Song to a top choreographer for next season, and that so far they haven't done so because the skaters hadn't achieved notable results, and that top choreographers don't put much energy/effort into no-name skaters even if you pay the $$$. No mention of whether Yan Han will get a non-Chinese choreographer though. Probably not...

    Zijun Li, Kexin Zhang, and Bingwa Geng all had Karen Kwan as choreographer last year, and David Wilson this year. Maybe it was part of the deal in hiring Mingzhu Li -- luckily they didn't have to get a GP medal before getting foreign choreographers. But they only get to spend a few days in NA a year, not long enough to really work on their transitions or basics. I think Li just has a lot of natural talent with skating skills, as Chen Lu did with jumps back in the days.

    According to Chinese fan forums, Bo Luan, the coach of S/H and Y/J, apparently emphasizes only throws and twists in her training. Fans who went to see them at their training base saw that nobody out of the 10.5 (!) pairs there, all taught by Luan, were working on stroking or single jumps. She also punishes disobedient students by forbidding them to get ice time! Wenjing Sui was off ice for over 2 months over the summer for this reason. And another girl hasn't been allowed back on ice since 2009. Given how much Sui needs to work on her skating skills and all the rest, being forced off the ice for months at a time seems like the worst possible method! Especially now that she's hitting puberty...
     
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  11. burntBREAD

    burntBREAD Active Member

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    Wow. :eek:

    Also, regarding choreography, even good performers like Han Yan are put at a disadvantage because the choreography is not that great. For example, the music cuts in his SP are just awful.
     
  12. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    :scream: :wall:

    Although it's also possible that they were working on throws and twists during that particular session.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2011
  13. Yukari Lepisto

    Yukari Lepisto Active Member

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    This is in China, so i'm not surprised at all. I'd be surprised if it's not like this...
     
  14. letsskate

    letsskate New Member

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    Sorry guys, didn't wanna go through the entire thread. But are Zijun Li, Yan Han, and He Zhang old enough for Worlds 2012? if not, Worlds 2013? Thanks.
     
  15. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    They are Senior age-eligible from:

    Han Yan - 2011/2012
    Zijun Li - 2012/2013
    He Zhang - 2012/2013

    Boyang Jin - we don't know what his "official" ;) birthday is
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2011
  16. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    The big boss may have a point there if he means David Wilson or Lori Nichol. They are just too busy and have their priority for the elites. But then again not event the best choreographer can work his magic if they only spend a couple of days on the programs with him.

    Someone like Tom Dickson or even Philip Mills might work. Just fly them in for like 2 or 3 weeks. Can benefit so many girls (and guys) in one go.
     
  17. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Yes, definitely get somebody who isn't a top name but creates good work. And fly them in to work with a number of skaters.

    Cheaper and you get more out of it.

    I mean if skaters get flown to US to work with David or Lori (most of whose work is shit anyway :p) for 2 or 3 days, it's a waste of money and a waste of time. Nowhere near enough time to work on a program.
     
  18. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Exactly. Fly the choreographer in. Just for the top 3 guys and gals.

    The return plane fare plus accomodation for one or two weeks in China for 2 weeks is probably still cheaper than the plane fare plus accomodation plus ice time in NA. Plus they wouldn't have to fight for ice time in China and can make the most out of the trip.
     
  19. rouge

    rouge New Member

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    :eek: It sounds terrible.
    It seems while the younger coaches focus more on basics and choreography and show more respect to their skaters, the older generation unfortunately has not changed their mind.
    As for choreography, I think the state-sponsored sports system is still dominating in China. As the federation pays most of the money, it surely wants some remarkable results in return. So the coaches who have achieved a lot in the past, like Bin Yao or Mingzhu Li, may get much more resources for his/her camp. It's kind of "safe investment". Maybe to hire a foreign choreographer (+flights, accomodations, etc.) means a big expense for younger coaches and their students. And among chinese choreographers, Zhang Wei is really outstanding, but others seem not wiser than their predecessors. For young skaters, they don't have too many options.
     
  20. letsskate

    letsskate New Member

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    So we'll see Han Yan at Nice worlds next year? or he'll just wait one more year?
     
  21. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    I think they will send Nan Song to Worlds instead and try to fight for a 2nd spot. Han Yan wil likely return to Jr Worlds.
     
  22. Eislauffan

    Eislauffan Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, I don't believe this story of punishing Wenjing Sui by not letting her on the ice for two months during the summer. No coach would be so unprofessional and Federation officials wouldn't allow this to happen either. Maybe Wenjing Sui was not allowed on the ice for two days if there is something to this story.
    They started doing the quad twist again and this time it was working for them, they must have trained it over the summer.
     
  23. xy3026rosa

    xy3026rosa New Member

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    This is true,some Chinese ice fan said LuanBo in order to punish Sui so she didn't let her on the ice ,go home and write checks add up for 5 months.:(
     
  24. Eislauffan

    Eislauffan Well-Known Member

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    You report what "some Chinese fan" said, but this is not a reliable source to me. Is there any proof for these claims other than hearsay?
     
  25. Hedwig

    Hedwig Rarely here anymore but I try to be better!

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    It would be really interesting to get reliable information about this.
    Now that China is so much on the rise, do you think that there will be any travel journeys done across the trainings centers like you do for the US and Russia?
     
  26. johndockley92

    johndockley92 New Member

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    Twist is one of the easiest elements to train off the ice :p
     
  27. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Elvin Wong's work for He Zhang is very good. Hopefully he'll get more work now.

    He can compete at 2012 Worlds. But there is only one spot and I am pretty sure that Nan Song will get it, while Han Yan gets one of the Junior Worlds spots, as Marco said.

    I know of a :rolleyes: Polish coach that often punishes their skaters by keeping them off the ice but even they wouldn't be that stupid to keep their best skaters off ice for two months. It does sound rather unbelievable.
     
  28. Seerek

    Seerek Well-Known Member

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    It is interesting 30 years later having Bin Yao and Luan Bo having "rival" training centres.
     
  29. sharonz

    sharonz New Member

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    It's really nice to see someone bring this topic up again :lol: Thanks to Song's brilliant performance.

    However, I'm still more impressive with the juniors. Most excited news to me is that Jin Boyang attemped 4T at gala:eek:. Even he failed, it is still unbelievable for a young boy at his age to give a try. He actually landed one at the practice. It's a pity that he was not sent to JGP this season, but I kind of understand it. China have 1 spot per competation, totally 7 spots. And they skip 3 competations due to NC. They also failed to get the visa for Estonia. That left no spot for Jin, since Yan and Zhang get 2 spots and Liu for 1. Jin is unbelievably talented for jumps but still a lot to work on SS. Next season's JGP will be very exciting;)

    As for Sui's punishment, it was posted by a fan who knows them in person. She also posted some inside information before. Whatever the cause, Sui has been off-ice for about 2 months. SH re-started the training right before ArOI this summer.

    There are always some interesting news/information of skaters on Chinese board. Yan seems to be quite different off-ice, having a strong personality. There is no athletes in his family. His parents didn't want to him do FS, the only supported member was his grandfather. Zijun is coming from a comparatively wealthy family, and her parents have spent a great number on her skating before she entered the national team. Her mother also quit job and move to Beijing to take care of her.

    some interesting pics from weibo.
    Yan and Yuzuru
    Yan and Zhang
    quite cool pic of Yan at COC gala
    Jin Boyang surrongded by Russian ladies
    Zijun's dog Is this the same kinds as mao's?
    Zijun in Canada
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2011
  30. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    NC?

    How could that happen? Sounds like a big mess up on the Chinese federation's part.

    If true, that's absolutely shocking.

    Thank you very much for the information you've shared so far. We'd really appreciate more inside info in the future. :)