Chen vs Kwan- 96 Worlds

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by kuzytalent, Jul 19, 2013.

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Who should have won 96 Worlds- Kwan or Chen

  1. Kwan

    97 vote(s)
    40.4%
  2. Chen

    141 vote(s)
    58.8%
  3. Slutskaya

    2 vote(s)
    0.8%
  1. gotoschool

    gotoschool Active Member

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    I know this thread is supposed to be about 1996 Worlds, which I already weighed in on by saying I picked Chen, but your post made me go back and watch the top 3 skaters, for the 2002 Worlds: Slutskaya, Kwan and Suguri. I feel like I'm "out of the loop" in terms of my pick because I liked Fumi Suguri's LP performance the best. I thought Irina had better skating skills such as speed and edge control and she was actually rather elegant (from the knees down), her jumps were bigger and to me had more beautifully tight symmetry and the 2 Biellmann spins put her ahead of Michelle for me who was more graceful with her body movements and who held her spirals better, but she was behind and the freeskate only counted for 50 percent.

    As for Fumie, she controlled her own destiny since she was a close 2nd going into the free, and I thought she had the right balance of elegance, energy and a touch of profound melancholy that suited the music. Her jumps were aesthetically pleasing in the tightness of the spiral, I liked the sincerity of her artistry the best and she was the most emotionally compelling for me. I couldn't understand the German announcers, so I am not sure of all the jumps she did. I know she had a beautiful lutz and you could tell the announcers were really impressed with her overall. I guess she lost in technical because of having no Biellmann, for example, but why couldn't she at least be placed ahead of Kwan since she was ahead of her going in to the freeskate? Answer below.

    Thanks for the information below DannyCurry. Too bad Fumie didn't do that 6th triple like Michelle and Irina. I wonder why she didn't try for it. I just figured out it's the ballet quality to her skating that compelled me in that performance and her long drawn out extensions punctuated with rapid runs. It has a dynamic quality that fits the capricious mood of the music.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2014
  2. DannyCurry

    DannyCurry Active Member

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    IIRC, Slutskaya and Kwan both landed 6 triples, Fumie landed 5.
    I absolutely love Suguri's Moonlight Sonata. If she had landed the 3 loop, I'd have given her the gold. But I know most people think that she was so far behind Slutskaya and Kwan in terms of skating skills and artistry that this would never happen.

    Then, as a Kwan fan, and one who loves Scheherazade, I obviously think that Michelle deserved to win the LP (Fumie having made a mistake on the loop). Michelle's perfect skate was a nice recovery (after Salt Lake, as well as the mistake on the short).

    Slutskaya's Tosca was powerful, but her skating and choreography were of no appeal to me. I did like her strong and high jumps though (but not the loooong set up that she had going into those at the time, except on the loop).

    Still a nice podium.
     
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  3. giselle23

    giselle23 Active Member

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    I guess the sarcasm was lost.
     
  4. gotoschool

    gotoschool Active Member

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    a
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2014
  5. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    How many times did Slutskaya skate a clean short and long programs in the same competition against a clean Kwan? 2000 GPF where she beat Kwan and ??? When else? Don't give me 2001 worlds as an example. Slute's jumps were messy and not clean.

    When did Cohen ever skate a perfect short and long against a clean Kwan in international competition? I can't think of anytime. Doubled jumps and step outs aren't clean.

    When did Bobek skate a clean short and long in the same competition against a clean Kwan? 1998 nationals was the closest she got to clean but even then it wasn't clean. And nationals don't really count because they are more politically influenced and I'll give you that Kwan had some questionable marks at nationals but that happens to most top skaters at their own nationals.

    When did Butyrskaya skate two clean programs against Kwan other than 99 worlds where she beat her?

    Hughes skated two clean programs at 2000 Skate America and 2001 Worlds but lost to Kwan but come on. Hughes was gross.

    The only time I remember Chen skated two clean programs against Kwan was 96 worlds and she lost, barely.

    The only time Lipinski and Kwan both skated clean programs in an international, Lipinski won.

    I don't remember much about Suguri's career and I don't have insomnia to cure so I'll refrain from revisiting her programs.

    So basically, we have Kwan winning one time against a rival when both were clean in the short and long program. Hardly a case of judges holding her up. Until you can provide other examples, your generalizations have no merit.
     
  6. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    It is interesting Suguri has a reputation as a consistent skater. I don't really think she is. I recall her only ever doing 1 totally clean competition, and that was a silly cheesefest. She often got by a good competition with 4 or 5 clean triples in the LP, but she also had numerous meltdowns, especialy on the regular grand prix.

    It is probably natural to think she was a great competitor given that her medal haul is an overachievement for a skater of her caliber, but she had this weird and uncanny knack for having her closer to clean outings on days the better skaters bombed altogether.
     
  7. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

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    "really slow, super cautious, and kind of weak performance with some shaky landings"..

    Not hyperbolic at all.
     
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  8. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

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    One of the most impressive things about Kwan's LP, is that it followed Chen's.
    She rose to the occasion.
     
  9. dawnie

    dawnie Active Member

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    IMO, it was a combination of the last triple toe and the momentum she had coming into the competition that won Kwan that title. That last triple toe was so dramatic and it worked so perfectly with the ending, way better than the planned double axel.
     
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  10. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

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    Well in regards to Chen they were really only serious rivals in one season 95-96 season. We cannot really count earlier, since Kwan was still still essentially a junior skater in the senior ranks. (granted that didn't stop Lipinski, but she was better able to sell it and had a difficult 3/3 to boot). In that season Chen faced Kwan 3 times- Skate America, GPF, and worlds (not including cheesefests). Chen actually beat Kwan in the SPs at the first two events rather easy, it was only after problems in the longs (and an ultimate meltdown in GPF LP) where she lost to Kwan. After this season Chen was never to be a serious rival for gold. She was much more consistent in the 92-95 years (before Kwans peaks)

    Bute and Suguri I wouldn't consider consistent skaters at all, and I would put them with Cohen and Bobek. Slutskaya, Lipinski and Hughes were the most consistent rivals Kwan had, and of those 3 only Irina was there for more than a couple of seasons.
     
  11. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't even say Slutskaya was that good in consistency. In her very long career (and I mean really long, even longer than Kwan's) she only had a clean competition in a world/Olympic event once- 2002. Her most spectacular showing was the 2005 worlds but even there she had 2 major errors in the short and some IJS errors in the long.

    I would put Slutskaya on par with someone like Takahashi in consistency. Suguri I would also put on par with Takahashi in consistency (although nowhere near the spectacular skater Takahashi is). The other girls you mentioned would be worse though, about on par with Chan in consistency, but without Chan's out of the world skating skills and voodoo spell on the judges.
     
  12. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

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    I personally don't feel Kwan was viewed as a goddess then even by the judges, and as mentioned she won with her consistency and great skating in general. Kwan in that season though, was winning almost everything (she only recorded one loss I believe). At worlds I think as I've always felt, it could have gone either way, and I think most people feel that way. In some ways its too bad the Kwan/Chen rivalry ended so soon, as I think it was way more interesting, and better matched; than the Lipinski, Slutskaya and Cohen ones.
     
  13. hirtmoles31

    hirtmoles31 Member

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    I don't agree the Chen-Kwan rivalry was evenly matched or interesting. It was boring, and I am glad this was its swan song, and the best possible one as it was the only time Chen even pushed a prime Kwan. That Chen as reigning world champion for the only time lost all her meetings with Kwan, and produced the skate of her career and still lost to Kwan shows she was not a worthy rival. Nor was it evenly matched. Tara and Irina were both far bigger threats to Kwan and a more evenly matched rivalry since they were superior to Kwan technically, and Tara was even a superior competitor. Sasha was superior to Kwan in spins, had even better spirals, and rivalled her in artistry. Chen wasn't better than Kwan in anything, especialy after Kwan improved further artistically after 96, so was not a good rival even at her best.
     
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  14. essence_of_soy

    essence_of_soy Well-Known Member

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    Having seen this competition in person, both skaters were outstanding and made magic in their own way.

    Kwan's program kept building and building from the triple salchow in the slow section, and when she landed her sixth and seventh triples, you could sense that she had it.
     
  15. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    I dispute this. Kwan was a master artist after 1996 and the best combination of artistry and athleticism for her time. However, Lulu was also a master artist in 1996 and after she suffered when Li Mingzhu went to the government in order to try to turn Lulu into nothing after Lulu would not allow Li Mingzhu to have more of her money Lulu became spellbinding. At the 1998 Olympics, Lulu's Butterfly Lovers program was transcendent.
     
  16. yunatripleflip

    yunatripleflip Member

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    Fumie was not beating Irina at those worlds with a 6th triple. Probably not even with a 7th. It was Irina's turn to win worlds (in the judges and skating community view) and as long as she stood up she was getting it. The judges would also be scared of home cooking accusations had Fumie without a triple-triple won gold over clean Irina and Michelle out of nowhere. Maybe if Fumie did the loop she might have been given the benefit of doubt on home ice, and with her short program position, and kept in silver above Kwan.
     
  17. DannyCurry

    DannyCurry Active Member

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    Well, I wrote I'd have given the gold. I also wrote "But I know most people think that she was so far behind Slutskaya and Kwan in terms of skating skills and artistry that this would never happen." but of course, you left out that part of the quote.
    Just because "it was Irina's turn to win worlds (in the judges and skating community view)" does not mean it'd have been right to have Slutskaya winning against a clean Fumie with 7 triples. It would just have been another instance of crooked judging.

    Anyway, Fumie did not land a 6th or 7th triple at that event (she never landed 7 clean triples in a FS, IIRC) and I won't keep going OT, because this thread is about Chen vs Kwan in 1996.
     
  18. douglasottawa

    douglasottawa New Member

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    Had Fumie done the triple loop she might have won silver over Kwan. I dont think she was ever beating Irina for the gold medal. Irina would have had to have a fall. Leading after the short, all European judges, sentimental favorite after last 2 worlds and Olympics, no chance for Fumie.
     
  19. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I doubt she would have beaten Kwan either. Just a feeling. She might have stolen a few judges like how Kwan stole a few judges in the LP (not that it mattered).
     
  20. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Suguri probably needed a 7th triple (not just a 6th) to take ordinals from Kwan / Slutskaya at 2002 Worlds. Out of all 3 programs, I like Suguri's Moonlight Sonata the best. Both Slutskaya's Tosca and Kwan's Scheharazade had awkward edits and looked disjointed. The Tosca choreography was pretty random but the music arrangement was still better than Morosov's effort for Kwan in 2004. Scheharazade did not live up to the promise it showed at the Goodwill Games and by Nationals had become the same old same old again. IMO both Suguri and Hughes outshone Kwan and Slutskaya program-wise that season.

    For the record I would have given the free to Kwan given how all 3 skated. It was the first (and only) time that season in which she skated fast and inspired. Her Nationals skate was way too tentative.
     
  21. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    ^ I don't think Scheharazade became the same old same old as much as it became the model for the same old same old. Remember that immediately prior she was doing the Song of the Black Swan, the Miraculous Mandarin, and the Red Violin, which were very original programs. After Scheharazade she reverted back from the 3Lz-2Lp to the 3Lz-2T and just held onto the rest of her content until the end of her career ... probably because developing new content aggravate her ever worsening hip.
     
  22. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    The jump layout and timing became really similar to SOTBS by the season's end. Schez started out with a really interesting element layout and placings. Outside the repeating split falling leaves, even the original GWG footwork was more varied and difficult than what Kwan ended up doing by the season's end. That said, Slutskaya's program wasn't anything to write home about either. Sarah Hughes had the best LP in terms of content but her and Wagner kept tinkering with it and then borrowed some of Kwan's choreography in-between Nationals and SLC. Cohen's Carmen was just a mess and barely looked like a professionally put-together program. Suguri's Moonlight Sonata actually doesn't seem as good as I remembered it when I rewatched it recently but at least it was novel and built with the music. It also fit her personality perfectly unlike Slutskaya and Kwan's.

    I think what would have worked in Kwan's favor even if everything else stayed essentially the same were the music cuts. It was exciting at first and then became just this lyrical thing until the last Triple Lutz. If she had Davis/White's music cuts, she could have allowed the music to carry her a bit.
     
  23. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTVauOVYtzQ

    Here is a link to the Goodwill Games Scheharazade, which has very interesting choreography. Of course, she ultimately stripped it down like she did with Bolero and every program in between to the structure that was familiar. (Of course, it so happens that the so called "Well Balanced Program" looks an aweful lot like what Kwan was doing in terms of basic elements at the end of her career. )

    ... I wonder if the problems she was having that lead her to drop Frank Carroll were mostly an existential crisis; she was bored with skating but did not yet know what to do with herself, which ultimately resulted in her choosing a life entirely different from skating ... (woohoo for dimes store psychoanalysis)

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existential_crisis
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2014
  24. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I think she knew she had to do a 3/3 and skate with more speed to match Slutskaya. She couldn't do that with the complicated choreography at her late age of 21 anymore. The fact that she even tried a Triple Lutz/Triple Loop that she probably had very little chance of landing due to the lack of prior practice at Skate Canada, showed her desperation though I was happy at the time that she tried it.
     
  25. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    The 2001 Goodwill Games were in late August/ early September. That is really late for her to also have such an unpolished program going into an Olympic season. It might not have been age as much as panic.

    As far as competing with Slutskaya on content, she would have been better off using the 3T/3T and the 3S/3Lp she left in mothballs. Slutskaya was rarely clean on the higher triple/triple combinations.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2014
  26. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    The opening spiral move and 3sal, spiral into combination spin, 3flip into layback, and the final step sequence were wonderful at the GWG (in terms of choreography). It didn't even bother me that she used the COE, not the actual Kwan spiral itself, to highlight the ta-da during the middle of the program. The edits were horrible but I got used to them very soon.

    Too bad she tried to change too much that season. New choreographer, new coaching situation, losing too much weight, new jump combinations... Whether it was money or that she wanted something new / be in charge, or anything else that led to firing Nichol/ Carroll, it was just unfortunate. She couldn't have been more poised for it to happen at SLC. She finally was the reigning World Champ going into the Olympics, she was skating at home, she was the darling, she had by far the best Worlds/ Olympics results of all competitors, Slutskaya never managed to beat her at Worlds (yet)... sigh. Perhaps if she had made just 1 or 2 less changes, things would have become very different.

    Well, her mature programs in 1999 didn't quite work. TRV had to be striped naked for Worlds compared to Skate America. Her more contemporary short programs didn't work (against Slutskaya) two years in a roll, forcing her to dump Rush and go back to old reliable programs of East of Eden and Rach 3. Miraculous Mandarin was dumped after one showing. The interesting layout and choreography of both Song of the Black Swan and Scheharazade were changed back to standard by Nationals. She was nowhere as adventurous or original in programs as people make her out to be. At least not compared to herself in the previous quad.

    Jump wise - she also stopped attempting the 3toe3toe after 2002 and the 3loop after 2004. But most of that would be injury-related so I think it's unfair to hold that against her.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2014
  27. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Although I loved the nuances in her original SOTBS, the Worlds version was much better as far as elements and pacing. The GP version of SOTBS was just a mess all-around. I remember reading about how all the spins were on one spot at Skate America. I don't think that's right, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was true.

    The Red Violin was a different story. Substantively, not much changed, but little moves to the beat of the music made a huge difference for me in terms of lasting impression. I mean she received a 6.0 for presentation with a fall from a European judge at Skate America. Also, switching the double axel and Loop placements made the program way too front-loaded at Worlds. But then that's just something skating fans care about. The crowd went wild for it in Nice and it did build nicely and differentiated itself from almost every other program in the final flight (outside Gusmeroli who had a really unique element layout that year).
     
  28. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Going bach to Rach 3 was a big mistake. Even EoE would have been better because Rach 3, even if it was a signature program, was stuck in the past. It also frustrates me that she did the 3F in 2002 but not in 1998 at the Olympics although she had been capable of the 3F in the SP since 1995.