Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by kuzytalent, Jul 19, 2013.
Oh wah wah wah.
deleted because attempt to edit resulted in duplicate post
I can't vote because what I think should have happened isn't on the list of options. I think they should have tied, with duplicate golds being awarded. Both Kwan and Chen were perfect in both the SP and the FS.
Not sure how this thread came back to life, but I think Michelle is the definite winner because she always faced weak competition.
No way. The only time that happened was the start of the death of the sport. Flipping a coin is a better option than a Sale & Pelletier repeat.
It wouldn't be a S & P repeat, IMO, because that one involved alleged corruption and/or powerful people whining about the results. Chen/Kwan simply admits that both were so good that the judges can't decide between them.
They were both worthy champions. I still believe that Kwan won it by virtue of the exciting last 30 seconds of her program including an extra triple toe. That, coupled with skating after Chen. Just as in Nagano, skate order was likely a factor.
Either way, this was one of the few worlds that the top two were absolutely faultless and everyone should agree that it was a toss up between two great athletes and artists.
Just pointing out reality. It doesn't bother me since I know judging in skating is 65% crap anyway and I am not even a fan of any of the skaters I mentioned. Chen did deserve the 96 world title over Kwan, and her 98 Olympic bronze was a make up gift. Similar to how Kovarikova & Novotny were robbed of the 95 European title to a German team in Germany, then were gifted the world title over a flawless Shishkova & Naumov despite a fall. There are probably many other such examples of that in skating. The problem with this is eventually the rollover has to stop, and someone gets screwed who doesn't get the payback. Plus two wrongs don't make a right.
I voted for Slutskaya. I think that was the skate she did 2 triple-triples for the first team amongst her 7 clean triples skating to Don Quixote. I know her artistry isn't as good as Chen and Kwan, but with that technical merit I would give her the gold.
You're confusing Slutskaya in 1996 with Slutskaya in 2001. Slutskaya in 1996 was lucky to get bronze with that huge sliding fall she had on her opening Lutz.
What is amazing is every judge had Irina 3rd. I cant belive it wasn't atleast a split between her and some others. Some of the judges had her only .1 behind Chen, and those same judges had Maria .3 behind her or behind Bonaly in the LP, and Chen .2 or .3 behind Kwan. Whether the final results were right or not that was some pretty bad judging.
The general impression I get from the judges scores is Michelle and Irina went in as the top 2 in the judges minds due to their consistent seasons, and others like Chen, Butyrskaya, Szewcenko, were going to have skate really well to get anywhere after their erratic seasons. Any mistake by them was really going to be nitpicked.
I think the judges were ready to reward Ito if she skated well though. You cant judge her season as there was none (other than Nationals), and at that point in time she was a far bigger icon in the sport than anyone in the event. I cant believe she came 7th with that lame performance with 1 or 2 successful triples. Kwiatkowski should have easily beaten Ito at that event, and I love Ito and find Tonia a total zzzzzz.
When i watch the performances again, in the long program i would have had
Chen Lu: 5.8, 6.0
Michelle: 5.9, 5.9
Here are the Japanese judges marks for the LP
1. Kwan 5.9, 6.0
2. Chen 5.8, 5.8
3. Slutskaya 5.7, 5.8
What a terrible, terrible judge. It is amazing such bad apples are allowed to continue to work and infect the sport.
Lu Chen 5.8, 6.0
Michelle Kwan 5.9, 5.9
As Chen's coach said it could have gone either way... I watch the sport for artistry which isn't quantifiable by mere ordinals, so my pick is Chen.
I have always wondered if what happened in '96 is the reason Kwan isn't that well regarded (though well respected) among the Chinese skating fan forums while Patrick Chan is.
Oh no, you've just set off the ardent Kwan defenders who will make it their mission to prove you wrong.
That was a classy thing for Chen's coach to say. I remember Chen being quite vocal about her unhappiness with the results in the post-competition comments. Maybe her coach calmed her down because I've never heard her complain since.
It really could have gone either way. Both were deserving champions. Skate order and Kwan's dominant season was probably the deciding factor for some judges.
Chen lost the world title at the grand prix final. She had an easy path to victory there. Kwan 4th after the short. Josee who was 2nd after the short falling apart. Had she skated clean or even with just 1 mistake there she would have won easily, and cemented herself as the frontrunner in conjuction with her world title. Had she won there IMO there is no way she loses the world title with how she skated at worlds, as the reigning world champion. Kwan winning there, along with her dominance of the rest of the season, gave her a big edge, even with Chen being the reigning champion.
Something to bear in mind. If there had been a Chinese judge at the panel, or no US judge at the panel the result may be very different.
The U.S judge actually was the only one to vote for Chen in the short program, and Chen behind by a smaller margin (.1) than the other 5 judges who gave Kwan 1st place. I don't think this was a biased judge. The Asian territory judges in fact hammered Chen the worst.
Interesting info, thanks. It just to show nothing is in black and white, it is really close!! Still had there been a Chinese judge, it can make the difference. Asian territory has its own geopolitics no lesser than USA vs Russia vs Canada. Who were the judges and who vote for who?
judgejudy27, ITA with you. Thank you for sharing that observation about the Asian judges.
In a competition of perfection, Kwan probably had the tiniest edge due to the impression of being "less lacking". Chen was wonderful but I couldn't help but felt "if only the spins were a tad better". Back then, Kwan's flutz wasn't that much of an issue.
And politics aside, I also think the judges wanted to reward skaters who made that leap. Chen was already wonderful in 1995 and she kept it that way in 1996. Kwan's transformation from 1995 to 1996 to make herself on par with Chen was, well, remarkable. They had no more reasons to deny her the same way they did in 1995.
Honestly, the more I watch skating, the more I find these two performances hard to judge.
I would say Kwan was more lacking than Lu Chen whose spins were better than Kwan's semi-forced artistry. I became a Kwan fan in 1997 when she debuted Lyra at Skate America. Before that, she was a girl playing dress up to me and I didn't buy her "artistry." So while her jumps and her attack were perfect in 1996, I wouldn't call her artistry perfect at all.
Lu Chen complained a lot about the lack of a Chinese judge on the panel but wasn't it a 6-3 split? And I never understood the idea that the top contenders should all have their own judge on the panel. You can't always predict which skaters will be in contention for a medal at worlds ahead of time. Hello, Malinina! Besides you can't shouldn't manipulate the selection of judges anyway.
I think the artistic difference between both skaters was much more than the relatively minor spin edge for Michelle. Michelle by 96 had developed very good artistry, and it was probably the 2nd best after Chen (or 3rd best after Josee Choinard of Canada). It wasn't outstanding yet though, and not worthy of the artistic marks she got at those worlds. 97 was the first year her artistry looked totally natural. Chen also had higher and better quality jumps, and Kwan's footwork sequence in this particular program was simple and much poorer than Chen's. Chen had a harder 2nd jump combination too.
Lets face it the real thing is if Chen was American and Kwan Chinese, with Chen the defending champion, Chen would have won all 9 judges probably, or lost 1 at most. Even those that agree with Kwan's win would probably concede that.
Kwiatkowski also deserved the bronze at those worlds. She easily outskated all of Slutskaya, Butyrskaya, and Szewcenko but she is a no name so no chance.
I loved Kwan's ina bauer into Triple Loop. I think that middle section was when Kwan finally got into it and it built to an exciting second half.
For me, it's like watching two brilliant triple threats (singer-actor-dancers) and they're both up for awards. One was recently awarded and gave a new signature and breathtaking performance that exceeded her past efforts. The other is an ingenue who you know will develop even further but has already made excellent strides in her craft. She's given a brilliant piece and is learning how to express it. Usually the former would be the winner but in one particular night (that the judges saw) the latter gives a performance beyond the usual execution of steps, performs the piece as brilliantly as she could but with extra emotion, creates suspense, and in the end receives an incredible enthusiastic standing ovation. I mean basically a star was born. Not only in Kwan but in Lori Nichol. Sandra Bezic was already established but Nichol was new and exciting as well.
*If you want to add award politics into it to equate it when Kwan being awarded for her consistent season over Chen's inconsistent season…then you can also think of Chen like Donna Murphy in 2004 when she was the favorite to win for her performance in Wonderful Town (and won all the precursor awards) but lost to Idina Menzel in Wicked. A lot of people think it was a combination of awarding a blockbuster piece, awarding the role of Elphaba (and the song Defying Gravity), and awarding Idina who did not miss any performances that season while Donna Murphy missed a ton due to illness and therefore had an inconsistent run.*
I think people are too busy minutely analyzing the performances that they're losing the greatness that we have with these two performances. IMO, the combination of Chen's and Kwan's routines in this competition has never been beaten in ladies.
I think the second mark was already renamed as presentation by that year. In any event, it was never just about artistry for the second mark.
No. No. That just doesn't work because that would make Irina Slutskaya the Tonya Pinkins of that bunch and I can't fathom voting for Irina but I would have voted for Tonya. My head is spinning.
You're right! Well, we don't know who really came in second-fifth at the Tonys, right? Maybe we can just say that Stephanie D'Abruzzo is Slute, Tonya Pinkins is Maria Butyrskaya, and Kristin Chenoweth is Surya Bonaly. Wait, that's not right either...
For me every thing about Michelle''s performance that night was just magical. It is one of my favorite performances ever. I know one can debate the specifics forever, but that performance was larger than the sum of its parts. Her age, the role she portrayed, the music and the way she hit every nuance just took my breath away. It is when I became a fan of Michelle and of skating. I have so missed the trend away from acting a part and toward just skating to music -guess it is my ballet background. But for me I can still watch that performance and be taken away by it. When a skater can do everything AND take my breath away that puts them ahead by a mile. Michelle deserved the win in my mind -hands down