Chen vs Kwan- 96 Worlds

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by kuzytalent, Jul 19, 2013.

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Who should have won 96 Worlds- Kwan or Chen

  1. Kwan

    97 vote(s)
    40.6%
  2. Chen

    140 vote(s)
    58.6%
  3. Slutskaya

    2 vote(s)
    0.8%
  1. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Even the pairs arent strong spinners. The great Shen & Zhao always struggled with spins, and the Chinese pairs typically have slow spins and lose unision.

    The lovely Li has the best spins of any Chinese lady I have seen. At this point she reminds me of a young Lu Chen only with much better spins, which bodes well for her future. Unfortunately judging by how she was scored at Worlds she might share the same hard fight through much of her career to earn the recogntion she deserves from judges too.
  2. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    She is young. I am sure the judges will acknowledge her skills if she continues to skate well.
  3. PairSk8Fan

    PairSk8Fan Banned Member

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    Well, I have always considered this event to be one where whomever was chosen the winner, the judges could not be accused of making a mistake.

    Michelle came out a totally different skater and completed everything with a wonderful, but applied and a somewhat unnatural presentation that was acting, and not reflective of her own personality. She would improve her presentation after this program.

    Chen was better artistically and was actually better in the jumps, as hers were bigger, higher and some even had a delay. However, her footwork and spins were not at the level of Kwan. Artistically, she was in a place where she was skating from her "soul" and was totally moving with the music.

    My vote was for Chen because she was the one with the most maturity and elegance. However, if you choose Kwan and back it up by noting the better spins and footwork and an excellent presentation, fine, I will not argue, as this is a question of taste.
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2013
  4. attyfan

    attyfan Well-Known Member

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    IMO, the two should have been given duplicate golds, as both had perfect shorts as well as perfect free skates. I don't think that Chen Lu was robbed because Michelle won, but Michelle wouldn't have been robbed if the judges had gone the other way.
  5. os168

    os168 Active Member

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    The result is very very close, could go either way. Had there been a Chinese judge on the panel, we might have a different world champion, but then we might not able to see or experience Lu Chen's seminal Butterfly lovers at her last Olympics with its sweet bitter feelings and depth of emotional undertone which surely have been inspired by her struggles and views developed from this sport.

    Just curious, if they were to score under IJS point system of today, who would have won? Michelle had the more technical program, but Lulu was the formal world champion.
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2013
  6. ohashibiles

    ohashibiles Member

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    I think Chen should have definitely won. Kwan had improved so much artistically since 1995 that she was now excellent in artistic, and far ahead of everyone but Chen at that point. However Chen was still a big level up in artistry that year skating as she did that night. Chen had much better quality jumps and doing both a triple lutz-triple toe, triple flip-double toe, and triple salchow into a double axel, I was more impressed with her content than Kwan's one extra triple toe too.

    I didnt think Kwans footwork sequence in the long program was better. It was mostly a couple little turns in the same direction.

    The only think Kwan did better was the combination spin and spirals. Everything else was all Chen. I would have given Kwan 5.8, 5.8, and Chen 5.9 technical, 6.0 artistic before Kwan even skated.
    gotoschool likes this.
  7. ohashibiles

    ohashibiles Member

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    Chen would have won alot more medals and titles in her career if she wasnt from China, lets face it. She never got a break from the judges in her career or any benefit of doubt. Well almost, the one exception was the 98 Olympics she was gifted the bronze medal as a retirement present.
  8. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Chen didn't do a Triple Lutz/Triple Toe.
  9. OliviaPug

    OliviaPug Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, well, assuming she HAD done one ... :lol: Figure skating and selective memory go together like peanut butter and jelly.

    O-
  10. rickmercer

    rickmercer Member

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    Chen was the clear winner. I am surprised it is such a close poll. One of many titles and medals Kwan was gifted throughout her career being the judges pet she was.
    skateboy and (deleted member) like this.
  11. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    Kwan was not 'gifted' any of her titles. This (96) is the only one that is even open to debate, and not by much. The only reason it's being debated is Chen delivered a sublime artistic performance. Kwan always delivered when it counted- and 5 times it was good enough for her to win the world title, with the exception of the 2002 Olympics (and later the 2005 worlds).
  12. rickmercer

    rickmercer Member

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    I wouldn't have given Kwan either her 1996 or 2000 titles. In 2000 she deserved the long program but had Butyrskaya been 2nd in the long program as she should have been she would have won that year. She also clearly didn't deserve her 1999 World silver where she should have been about 5th and something like 8th or 9th in the short (and she was put 4th, hahaha), or her 2002 Olympic bronze where she was overmarked in both programs.
  13. OliviaPug

    OliviaPug Well-Known Member

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    Uh, yeah, but Butryskaya WASN'T in 2nd in the LP. Can we insert some logic into this argument? Please? Shoulda, woulda, coulda. Kwan did enough to win in 2000. Period.

    O-
  14. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    :cheer: :respec:


    And, I love Lulu too! I also love the way Lulu and Michelle always genuinely showed so much respect for each other. Worlds 1996, a special year in figure skating. Special moments throughout that season which will always reverberate as long as the sport lives and breathes.
  15. attyfan

    attyfan Well-Known Member

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    ITA!!!
  16. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

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    :confused:
  17. duane

    duane New Member

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    ...and didn't flutz.
  18. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    In 96 (like in 2002) the judges didn't care about the flutzes. They just gave credit for lutzes.
  19. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I am sure that Chen's artistry and clean performance is the only reason why this is even debated by fans. Everything else is just nitpicking in the guise of objective justification.
  20. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Nobody cared about a flutz back then unless it was an enormous mule kicking flutz like Sarah Hughes (and even then she won the Olympics with a performance that under COP would have probably been credited with 2 clean triples and something like 15th place). Lipinski had a much worse flutz than Kwan and nobody even cared about hers back then, including the judges, other than a few of the die hard Kwan supporting journalists/fans who purposely went out of their way to nitpick her given the standards of the time. The judges didnt even care one bit about Bobek's flutzy/lippy lutz/flip thing she tried which was such a hideously bad jump by 97/98 she wouldnt even dare attempt it if she competed under COP I am sure. Likewise skaters who had an extremely true lutz like Nikidinov, Chen, Suguri, Butyrskaya, were in no way extra credited for that back then, as it simply wasnt important.

    I find since COP came into play, many people are starting to look back on 6.0 competitions through COP eyes though. I dont mean so much this thread, but moreso many of the other recent threads.
  21. duane

    duane New Member

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    We're not the judges. What we, the fans, are discussing is who SHOULD have won 96 Worlds. The judges didn't care about flutzes? Well, I think they SHOULD have.

    All you're sure about about is the reason why YOU think Michelle or Lu should have won.

    Like nitpicking about spins?
  22. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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  23. duane

    duane New Member

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    Huh? You wrote that the only reason this is up for debate is because of Lu's artistry. I said it's also because of the quality of jumps.
  24. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    It is funny in 96 Chen was considered to have such quality jumps, when only 2 years later she had the most atrocious jumps by far of all the top ladies even when landed somewhat cleanish.
  25. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

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    Michelle's flutz was not that bad. the next two Olympic champions had much worse flutzes.
  26. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    I'm not even going to try to assess spins, steps and spirals, but I listed the base value of the jumps they attempted below. I'm not going to deal with whether or not they were fully rotated, proper take off edge, etc.

    Lu Chen - 41.86, 8 jumping passes (I counted the 3sal...2a as two passes because I think it would be under today's rules), average jumping pass value 5.23
    Michelle Kwan - 42.84, 8 jumping passes, average jumping pass value 5.35

    Chen would have had better GOE on the jumps, there entrances seemed basically equal, but a couple of Michelle's landings were just a tiny bit off or without much runout.

    Michelle would have clobbered her on the spins.

    Chen seemed to have an advantage on ice coverage, but it's hard to say. Speed is so valued now, I think Chen would have won PCS.

    This would have been insanely close under any scoring system.


    Who voted for Irina? Awww geez!
  27. giselle23

    giselle23 Active Member

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    Is that how she won two Olympic gold medals? Oh wait...
    kwanette and (deleted member) like this.
  28. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    Two "Olympic gold medals"? You probably meant two Olympic medals?
  29. BaileyCatts

    BaileyCatts Well-Known Member

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    ;) I think giselle was being sarcastic, you know ... because of all those "gifted titles" Kwan won (hence the 2 Olympic "golds" comment).
  30. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Suguri, a true Lutz ? I'd say it's not better than Sasha Cohen's :
    http://youtu.be/IOTgdkCbcW0?t=33s

    And I love Angela Nikodinov's skating, but her Lutz was questionnable : ;)
    http://youtu.be/TRZwjvMaVaQ?t=6m14s
  31. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Double Post.
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2013
  32. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Looks like I hit a nerve.

    People who bring up the spins are probably doing so to explain why the judges may have given Kwan the nudge over Chen outside the extra triple or the better season. My comment was really only about why some fans get so passionate about this debate. If Chen didn't give such a sublime, artistic performance, people (the general people, not including outliers), outside the obvious Kwan haters who posted in this thread, wouldn't be arguing about this competition at least twice a year on this forum. I believe it's Chen's artistry that inspire so many people to keep talking about this competition.
  33. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Hmm you are right. I was never a big enough Fumie fan to scrutinize her as closely I guess. It is still better than Cohen's though. By 2005-2006 standards I dont believe she was ever given -GOE for a clean lutz, while Sasha was everytime.

    I do think for 90s standards Nikidinov had a truer lutz takeoff than most though.
  34. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    Nikodinov, Butyrskaya, Volchkova (or was she past-90's?), Ito, Harding, Sebesteyen - all had true lutzes in the 90's.
  35. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I do remember when the Tara-Michelle rivalry was at is peak in the late 90s though Pat Lipinski and Richard Callaghan with the talk of Tara's flutz heating up, both came outwards and said emphatically "lots of skaters flutz, including Michelle Kwan" and Frank Carroll was livid and said both needed to shut up and that Kwan had a perfect lutz. The funny thing looking back now is Michelle definitely had a flutz, but it was never enough of one to be considered one by most people at the time like Tara's and worse ones than Tara's were.
  36. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

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    I never remember Pat's being included in Frank's "shut up". Though he did invite Richard C out to watch MK skate. I miss those good times.
  37. kwanoverrated

    kwanoverrated Member

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    In that program Chen had better jumps and footwork. I would say spins equal since Chen's layback was better and her flying camel was better executed than Kwan's short little death drop with like only 3 turns. Spirals to Kwan. So overall technically I would score Chen a bit higher under either 6.0 or COP. Then on the 2nd mark it is no contest. Kwan probably had the 2nd best artistic performance of the night (although Marias was close to as good or better) but Chen was far and away better, for me .2 better or a good 4-5 points better under COP.

    So Chen for me for sure.
    gotoschool likes this.
  38. kwanoverrated

    kwanoverrated Member

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    People say Kwan had more jump content just due to the extra triple toe. No way. Chen had an extra double axel (which Kwan had to take out hers to do the triple toe after not doing the planned earlier) which is almost the same value. Then Chen had a triple lutz-double toe, triple flip-double toe, and triple sal into a double axel, while Kwan had only a triple lutz-double toe, and triple toe-double toe, so Chen with the more difficult and more jump combinations I would give the slight jump content edge.
  39. jackcrougar

    jackcrougar New Member

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    Chen should have won easily. The fair marks would be Kwan 5.8, 5.8 and Chen 5.7, 6.0. The judges more than made it up to Chen with her gift bronze in Nagano though. The loser in all that was Maria and Irina who were robbed in Nagano and never got it made back up to them, and the big winner was Kwan who was gifted an extra world title and never had it made back to her the other way.
  40. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

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    :lol: