Chen vs Kwan- 96 Worlds

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by kuzytalent, Jul 19, 2013.

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Who should have won 96 Worlds- Kwan or Chen

  1. Kwan

    97 vote(s)
    40.4%
  2. Chen

    141 vote(s)
    58.8%
  3. Slutskaya

    2 vote(s)
    0.8%
  1. David21

    David21 Well-Known Member

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    Did you talk with the judges after the competition or how do you know that the spins made the difference?



    Neither Slutskaya nor Sokolova were sloppy skaters in that competition.
     
  2. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    That was the most obvious thing Kwan had the advantage over Chen. If you can't even tell, no wonder you thought Slutskaya wasn't sloppy.

    Did you talk with the judges after the competition or how do you know that they were not sloppy?
     
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  3. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

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    Out of reps for you..so..:encore:
     
  4. David21

    David21 Well-Known Member

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    Unlike you, I didn't claim to know for what reason the judges made what decision but you probaly didn't get that.
     
  5. OliviaPug

    OliviaPug Well-Known Member

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    Well, the judges went with Kwan, so take your pick at the things they thought Kwan did better than Lulu.

    Spins is as good a guess as any since Lulu always struggled with her spins and it showed in this competition.

    O-
     
  6. OliviaPug

    OliviaPug Well-Known Member

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    Double post.
     
  7. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Here is a link to the Championship Series Final where she tried another jump layout, including a 3T/3T. The 3T/3T was actually executed in this clip.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJY67mMo6Ts
     
  8. David21

    David21 Well-Known Member

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    It's a good guess, but it could have been lots of other things that could have been more important for the judges.
    IIRC, Kwan beat Chen in the 2nd mark. Better technical spins should be reflected in the 1st mark.
     
  9. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    I agree with this analysis. At the time, I thought Chen should have won because her skating was more polished and graceful, while Kwan's seemed a bit slow, solid and studied. This program was a huge leap forward for her but I didn't think it quite fit her yet. (I ws one of those who found it odd seeing such a young (and young-looking) skater in the role of seductress, which perhaps contributed to me not quite believing the performance.) I think it was partly Kwan's PR and partly the extra triple that won it for her. I would have scored it Chen 5.8 6.0, Kwan 5.9 5.8. Nobody else should even be in the conversation for gold and silver.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2013
  10. duane

    duane New Member

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    I'm amazed that the spins are being emphasized by many, but flutzes are pretty much being ignored.

    Tho her spins were weak in this competition, Lu didn't "always" struggle with spins.
     
  11. iarispiralllyof

    iarispiralllyof Active Member

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKmUW8wPB0s#t=133

    2:13-2:16 convinces me it's kwan
    the program is so incredibly nuanced, with a full range of dynamics and a clear story arc. It's also incredibly different from her equally amazing sp, which is in itself a masterpiece.
     
  12. OliviaPug

    OliviaPug Well-Known Member

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    I think it's fair to say Lulu always struggled with her spins, but pulled them off better in some competitions than others. YMMV.

    O-
     
  13. ks777

    ks777 Well-Known Member

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    I always thought Chen had one of the worst spins among the top skaters. I don't think I have ever seen her do a sit spin. well I am glad Chen won though.
     
  14. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    Lulu was gorgeous but I held my breath for every jump expecting her to fall, while Kwan was attack, attack, attack with confidence by the truckload. It was close.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2013
  15. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Her spins at 1995 Worlds were the best she ever did, all things considered (just in my opinion anyway - I did not talk to any judge :p). The final flying spin was under-reved but otherwise her spins that night were solid.

    Well her sit spins were never quite low enough.
     
  16. lahaa968

    lahaa968 Active Member

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    It's so much apples to apples for comparison in my book. Chen and Kwan were exquisite that night, and each had their own attributes. Their artistry was the crème de la crème. I was incredibly moved by Chen's program; so simple, so delicate, so tactful--not too much, not too little--a perfect balance. And, personally, I liked that it didn't end with a big "kaboom" like most programs. It felt subtle, and almost therapeutic. To quote Peggy's broadcast at the event, "she let us through a dream".

    But, there is only one top spot, and technical is much less subjective than artistic merit, and with an extra triple, Michelle won fairly (really, I think the spins and spirals are excessive hair splitting--this was a decision made in what, three minutes?)

    What an incredibly double edged sword this competition must have been for the judges--to witness, in the same event, two of the greatest ladies performances of all time, and all the while having to pick which one was better. :swoon:
     
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  17. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    I am a big MK fan, but I believe Chen should have won this on her artistic merit. That performance was sublime. For Michelle it was a great technical performance, but I don't see her artistry as 'mature' at that time. Also as the reigning world champion Chen should have gotten the benefit of the doubt. It was an extremely close competition.
     
  18. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    Somewhat OT: Are the Chinese skaters usually weak spinners? They are great jumpers, but I wonder if they don't spend enough time practising the spins? I am thinking of top Chinese pairs since Lu is the only singles top skater that comes to my mind. Are there Chinese skaters who are both great jumpers and good spinners?
     
  19. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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    Zijun Li has some nice spins and good jumps
     
  20. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    I forgot about Li.
     
  21. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Even the pairs arent strong spinners. The great Shen & Zhao always struggled with spins, and the Chinese pairs typically have slow spins and lose unision.

    The lovely Li has the best spins of any Chinese lady I have seen. At this point she reminds me of a young Lu Chen only with much better spins, which bodes well for her future. Unfortunately judging by how she was scored at Worlds she might share the same hard fight through much of her career to earn the recogntion she deserves from judges too.
     
  22. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    She is young. I am sure the judges will acknowledge her skills if she continues to skate well.
     
  23. PairSk8Fan

    PairSk8Fan Banned Member

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    Well, I have always considered this event to be one where whomever was chosen the winner, the judges could not be accused of making a mistake.

    Michelle came out a totally different skater and completed everything with a wonderful, but applied and a somewhat unnatural presentation that was acting, and not reflective of her own personality. She would improve her presentation after this program.

    Chen was better artistically and was actually better in the jumps, as hers were bigger, higher and some even had a delay. However, her footwork and spins were not at the level of Kwan. Artistically, she was in a place where she was skating from her "soul" and was totally moving with the music.

    My vote was for Chen because she was the one with the most maturity and elegance. However, if you choose Kwan and back it up by noting the better spins and footwork and an excellent presentation, fine, I will not argue, as this is a question of taste.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2013
  24. attyfan

    attyfan Well-Known Member

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    IMO, the two should have been given duplicate golds, as both had perfect shorts as well as perfect free skates. I don't think that Chen Lu was robbed because Michelle won, but Michelle wouldn't have been robbed if the judges had gone the other way.
     
  25. os168

    os168 Active Member

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    The result is very very close, could go either way. Had there been a Chinese judge on the panel, we might have a different world champion, but then we might not able to see or experience Lu Chen's seminal Butterfly lovers at her last Olympics with its sweet bitter feelings and depth of emotional undertone which surely have been inspired by her struggles and views developed from this sport.

    Just curious, if they were to score under IJS point system of today, who would have won? Michelle had the more technical program, but Lulu was the formal world champion.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2013
  26. ohashibiles

    ohashibiles Member

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    I think Chen should have definitely won. Kwan had improved so much artistically since 1995 that she was now excellent in artistic, and far ahead of everyone but Chen at that point. However Chen was still a big level up in artistry that year skating as she did that night. Chen had much better quality jumps and doing both a triple lutz-triple toe, triple flip-double toe, and triple salchow into a double axel, I was more impressed with her content than Kwan's one extra triple toe too.

    I didnt think Kwans footwork sequence in the long program was better. It was mostly a couple little turns in the same direction.

    The only think Kwan did better was the combination spin and spirals. Everything else was all Chen. I would have given Kwan 5.8, 5.8, and Chen 5.9 technical, 6.0 artistic before Kwan even skated.
     
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  27. ohashibiles

    ohashibiles Member

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    Chen would have won alot more medals and titles in her career if she wasnt from China, lets face it. She never got a break from the judges in her career or any benefit of doubt. Well almost, the one exception was the 98 Olympics she was gifted the bronze medal as a retirement present.
     
  28. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Chen didn't do a Triple Lutz/Triple Toe.
     
  29. OliviaPug

    OliviaPug Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, well, assuming she HAD done one ... :lol: Figure skating and selective memory go together like peanut butter and jelly.

    O-
     
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  30. rickmercer

    rickmercer Member

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    Chen was the clear winner. I am surprised it is such a close poll. One of many titles and medals Kwan was gifted throughout her career being the judges pet she was.
     
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