Chen vs Kwan- 96 Worlds

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by kuzytalent, Jul 19, 2013.

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Who should have won 96 Worlds- Kwan or Chen

  1. Kwan

    97 vote(s)
    40.6%
  2. Chen

    140 vote(s)
    58.6%
  3. Slutskaya

    2 vote(s)
    0.8%
  1. butyrskafanatic

    butyrskafanatic Member

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    Chen has too many wuzrobbed threads on these boards. She is still a beautiful skater but the way some on this forum talk about her you would think she was a god or something.
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2013
  2. butyrskafanatic

    butyrskafanatic Member

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    I am very happy to see so many of you bother to mention that Maria definitely deserved the bronze at the 96 Worlds, and that she also was robbed of winning Nations Cup that year over Michelle Kwan. I was surprised to see that, and also how Maria was easily my polls for winning the 2000 Worlds had she done a clean LP and for who should have won the bronze at the 98 Olympics. I had the impression the first couple of months people on this forum mostly all hated Maria, but maybe that was just from a few nasty posters who were using her as someone to ridicule to indirectly put down the Kwan era of skating and not representative of how most fans feel about her. Some of the comments about Maria on the who had the weakest competition thread were so bad and mean and made me so upset.
  3. duane

    duane New Member

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    And what's different about how you talk about Maria?
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  4. escaflowne9282

    escaflowne9282 Well-Known Member

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    I actually feel the opposite... lol. I think that it's Chen's 1996 World's performance and program that is easily one of the most iconic ladies programs ever. To me, Chen really was the one who was having a one with the universe moment. It's one of the programs that Sandra Bezic is most famous for, and Chen ,along with M&D in 1994, are the first names that come to mind when thinking of Rachmaninoff's 2nd. Kwan skated wonderfully and had an incredible program with terrific music, steps, choreography, and she built on the tension and pressure that program, music, and event created ;however, I don't think she really had that same level of interpretation yet.

    This event was really incredible to behold. For me, it's Chen, but I have no issues whatsoever with the actual result.
  5. butyrskafanatic

    butyrskafanatic Member

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    I dont think she is a god. Yes she is my favorite all time skater and I am a huge fan, and I admit I am biased, but I still think I am reasonable.

    I think she was robbed of a medal at many events- 96 Worlds, 97 Worlds, 98 Olympics, but I didnt argue she deserved to win any of those events. I think she could have won the 2000 Worlds had she not choked, but that doesnt mean I think she is a god either. On my polls for who deserved the bronze at the 1998 Olympics and who wins the 2000 Worlds had all skated cleanly Maria was the overwhelming winner of both, and that despite that she is the most hated skater on this forum.

    Even in this thread despite the extreme hating of her on this forum people are admitting she was robbed of the bronze, and probably of beating MK at Nations Cup earlier that year. So my defenses of her are never out of touch with reality, the way Chen fans think she is a god who seem to think she deserved 6 or 7 World titles (just look at the poll on another thread saying she deserved 93 Worlds, 92 Worlds, 94 Olympics, 94 Worlds which she didnt even skate, blah blah), and still was a 6.0 artistic skater even in 98 past her prime.
  6. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Most hated skater on this forum? Have you not seen threads with Sarah Hughes or Rachel Flatt or Patrick Chan?

    That's a really interesting victim complex you have.
  7. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

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    i haven't seen either program in years but at the time, I definitely thought Chen. Kwan looked like a little girl playing dress-up.
  8. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    I had to go with Kwan because, if I were a judge, I would have thought it would have been bad for the sport for Kwan to do the most athletic content for two years in a row but not win, despite Chen having the more mature presentation.
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2013
  9. duane

    duane New Member

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    Chen Lu fans are reasonable as well. Your comments about us are WAY over-the-top, just like your ridiculous claim that Maria is hated on this forum. Other than her inconsistency, Maria'a skating is mostly praised.
  10. OliviaPug

    OliviaPug Well-Known Member

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    For me, this competition was one of the all-time greats in ladies' WC figure skating. I would have been absolutely fine with either winning, but the most emotional reaction I had was to Michelle Kwan's program. I don't know why. I don't know that I'll ever figure that out. But it evoked something deep in me. Lulu's program was breathtaking and serene, but I did not feel the same emotional response. I'm sure this is subjective and that others felt more connected to Lulu's skate, and that's one of the things that made the competition so mind-blowing.

    Kwan's overall technical content was better than Lulu's.

    But, as I said, either could have won and I would have been thrilled. I was and still am a huge fan of Lulu. Loved her delayed rotation in some of her jumps and her regal presentation. So beautiful.

    O-
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  11. shady82

    shady82 New Member

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    I thought Michelle's performance of Salome was amazing and complete, but Lulu was on her own level artistically at the competition. Perhaps this is a stretch, but I analogize the Kwan vs. Chen comparison as similar to Kwan '98 Nationals vs. Kim '10 Olympics FPs. Kwan did have the momentum that year and snuck in the 3toe at the end, so the judges were compelled to award her at Worlds. I was very happy with the result, but would also be happy with Chen winning. If Kwan didn't sneak in that extra 3toe, I think the title would and should go to Chen - she got 6.0s even before Kwan skated.
  12. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Actually if Kwan had not done a 3toe at the very end, she would have closed with a 2axel instead (like she did all season long), which would make her jump count 6 triples and 2 2axels, same as Chen.

    I never felt 6 triples and 2 2axels and 7 triples and 1 2axel are all that different in technical merit, especially since Kwan's lutzes weren't as good. To me it really was the spins that set them apart.
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2013
  13. DarrellH

    DarrellH New Member

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    Kwan.

    The results seemed to have broken Chen. She did not have the fire that next year.
  14. Jarrett

    Jarrett Well-Known Member

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    I went back to look at the videos and can't believe Michelle lost the US judge to Lulu in the short program on the technical mark.
  15. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

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    I always thought the SP's were close that year too. Kwans SP was a masterpeice, but Chen's was as well. Her Spring Breeze was beautifully choregraphed, and her jumps were of better quality.

    Almost all the women were doing the single triple toe (or the loop in Butes case- I always thoughy her SP that year was one of her best).
  16. sk8ingcoach

    sk8ingcoach Active Member

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    I would have mark

    Chen: 5.8/6.0
    Kwan: 5.9/5.9

    Chen first
  17. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    I was actually surprised Kwan won that one so easily. For me the short was almost as close as the long. Perhaps skate order mattered?

    If I were a judge I would have given 6.0s in the second mark to Kwan and Chen on both their shorts and frees. Seriously. Spring Breeze was way underrated.
  18. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

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    Was it Joe Inman?:mad:
  19. bluesboom

    bluesboom New Member

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    Saying Kwan deserved to win by spins is a ridiculous argument since Kwan is no more than an average spinner herself. It is like the argument people had that Slutskaya deserved her controversial win over Sokolova at the 2003 Europeans since she was more artistic of the two. Well who is more artistic between two truck drivers is meaningless, and a same argument is true of Kwan vs Chen in spins.
  20. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Kwan was an average spinner, but Chen's spins were a burden to her. It's true and very much undisputed that between the two of them, Kwan was the better spinner and got more credit on her spins. It ended up making the difference in a close race.

    The same logic applies to Slute vs Sokolova at 2003 Europeans. The less sloppy of the two sloppy skaters won.
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  21. David21

    David21 Well-Known Member

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    Did you talk with the judges after the competition or how do you know that the spins made the difference?



    Neither Slutskaya nor Sokolova were sloppy skaters in that competition.
  22. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    That was the most obvious thing Kwan had the advantage over Chen. If you can't even tell, no wonder you thought Slutskaya wasn't sloppy.

    Did you talk with the judges after the competition or how do you know that they were not sloppy?
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  23. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

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    Out of reps for you..so..:encore:
  24. David21

    David21 Well-Known Member

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    Unlike you, I didn't claim to know for what reason the judges made what decision but you probaly didn't get that.
  25. OliviaPug

    OliviaPug Well-Known Member

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    Well, the judges went with Kwan, so take your pick at the things they thought Kwan did better than Lulu.

    Spins is as good a guess as any since Lulu always struggled with her spins and it showed in this competition.

    O-
  26. OliviaPug

    OliviaPug Well-Known Member

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    Double post.
  27. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Here is a link to the Championship Series Final where she tried another jump layout, including a 3T/3T. The 3T/3T was actually executed in this clip.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJY67mMo6Ts
  28. David21

    David21 Well-Known Member

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    It's a good guess, but it could have been lots of other things that could have been more important for the judges.
    IIRC, Kwan beat Chen in the 2nd mark. Better technical spins should be reflected in the 1st mark.
  29. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    I agree with this analysis. At the time, I thought Chen should have won because her skating was more polished and graceful, while Kwan's seemed a bit slow, solid and studied. This program was a huge leap forward for her but I didn't think it quite fit her yet. (I ws one of those who found it odd seeing such a young (and young-looking) skater in the role of seductress, which perhaps contributed to me not quite believing the performance.) I think it was partly Kwan's PR and partly the extra triple that won it for her. I would have scored it Chen 5.8 6.0, Kwan 5.9 5.8. Nobody else should even be in the conversation for gold and silver.
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2013
  30. duane

    duane New Member

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    I'm amazed that the spins are being emphasized by many, but flutzes are pretty much being ignored.

    Tho her spins were weak in this competition, Lu didn't "always" struggle with spins.
  31. iarispiralllyof

    iarispiralllyof Active Member

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKmUW8wPB0s#t=133

    2:13-2:16 convinces me it's kwan
    the program is so incredibly nuanced, with a full range of dynamics and a clear story arc. It's also incredibly different from her equally amazing sp, which is in itself a masterpiece.
  32. OliviaPug

    OliviaPug Well-Known Member

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    I think it's fair to say Lulu always struggled with her spins, but pulled them off better in some competitions than others. YMMV.

    O-
  33. ks777

    ks777 Well-Known Member

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    I always thought Chen had one of the worst spins among the top skaters. I don't think I have ever seen her do a sit spin. well I am glad Chen won though.
  34. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    Lulu was gorgeous but I held my breath for every jump expecting her to fall, while Kwan was attack, attack, attack with confidence by the truckload. It was close.
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2013
  35. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Her spins at 1995 Worlds were the best she ever did, all things considered (just in my opinion anyway - I did not talk to any judge :p). The final flying spin was under-reved but otherwise her spins that night were solid.

    Well her sit spins were never quite low enough.
  36. lahaa968

    lahaa968 Active Member

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    It's so much apples to apples for comparison in my book. Chen and Kwan were exquisite that night, and each had their own attributes. Their artistry was the crème de la crème. I was incredibly moved by Chen's program; so simple, so delicate, so tactful--not too much, not too little--a perfect balance. And, personally, I liked that it didn't end with a big "kaboom" like most programs. It felt subtle, and almost therapeutic. To quote Peggy's broadcast at the event, "she let us through a dream".

    But, there is only one top spot, and technical is much less subjective than artistic merit, and with an extra triple, Michelle won fairly (really, I think the spins and spirals are excessive hair splitting--this was a decision made in what, three minutes?)

    What an incredibly double edged sword this competition must have been for the judges--to witness, in the same event, two of the greatest ladies performances of all time, and all the while having to pick which one was better. :swoon:
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  37. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    I am a big MK fan, but I believe Chen should have won this on her artistic merit. That performance was sublime. For Michelle it was a great technical performance, but I don't see her artistry as 'mature' at that time. Also as the reigning world champion Chen should have gotten the benefit of the doubt. It was an extremely close competition.
  38. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    Somewhat OT: Are the Chinese skaters usually weak spinners? They are great jumpers, but I wonder if they don't spend enough time practising the spins? I am thinking of top Chinese pairs since Lu is the only singles top skater that comes to my mind. Are there Chinese skaters who are both great jumpers and good spinners?
  39. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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    Zijun Li has some nice spins and good jumps
  40. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    I forgot about Li.