Chen vs Kwan- 96 Worlds

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by kuzytalent, Jul 19, 2013.

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Who should have won 96 Worlds- Kwan or Chen

  1. Kwan

    97 vote(s)
    40.4%
  2. Chen

    141 vote(s)
    58.8%
  3. Slutskaya

    2 vote(s)
    0.8%
  1. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Member

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    I watched the ABC telecast of this event and Dick Button seemed in agreement with the result. I went back on some old skating magazines of mine though a few weeks ago and seemed to not agree with the result. Who should have won this event, Kwan or Chen. I thought the skates were about equal so Chen since she was defending champion should have won. Usually the reigning Champ would get the benefit in that situation.
     
  2. AxelAnnie

    AxelAnnie Well-Known Member

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    I thought Chen should have won that just on the merits.
     
  3. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Member

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    I think I would have given Chen 5.8 or 5.9 for technical and 6.0 for presentation. Kwan 5.9 for both.

    Butyrskaya also probably should have won the bronze over Slutskaya at that event. Szewcenko and Kwiatkowski should have finished higher than Slutskaya too.
     
  4. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    After watching both performances again a couple of years ago, I remember thinking Chen should have won, although both she and Kwan were good. I don't think I've ever seen Slutskaya's performances from that year.
     
  5. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

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    This was a really tough one. I think Kwan's momentum from her great season certainly helped her. Not that her winning was robbing anyone, she skated a great 7 triple program. The problem for Chen, IMO, was that her and Kwan's weak areas kind of matched up. Neither were good spinners but Kwan was better. Neither had tons of speed but Kwan was slightly better. In other words, I didn't feel there was an area where Kwan was the weaker of the two, at least not in general terms. The spins probably cost Chen a judge or two.
     
  6. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

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    Plus let's face it Michelle was being billed as the next great skater so even though Chen was the defending champ it was expected that it was only a matter of time before Michelle became a World champion.
     
  7. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

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    Chens spin layout at these worlds was very strange too. It seemed in her other programs she had more complete set of spins, whereas in Rach her combo spin didn't seem to have enough revolutions. Kwan had that extra triple as well.
    Again it was close between them. Chen just had a more beautiful quality, while Kwans artistry was very good, but kind of forced compared to Chen. I think too much emphasis is given to Chens up and down season. I really don't think the judges cared one way or another who did what in the Gps when 2 skaters skate flawless SP and LP's like they did. It comes down to preference, and some of the judges liked that Kwan went for that last triple toe.

    As far as speed is concerned Chen had better speed and flow at that point IMO.
     
  8. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Both were great but the only thing I thought Kwan was better on that night was spins and spirals. I would have gone with Chen.

    Kwan won the event before Worlds with her dominance all season, and Chen lost it with her inconsistency all season long which damaged her reputation and World Champion stature.

    I definitely dont think Kwan was faster at that point.
     
  9. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

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    I watched again and you are right, Kwan probably wasn't faster. However, Kwan had a lot more in her program it seems. Many more connecting moves and transitions although we know that in the time it really didn't affect the score. I think in the end the extra triple sealed the deal for Michelle. That was huge back then. The artistic mark was pure personal preference as to which kind of program you liked best.
     
  10. duane

    duane New Member

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    Well, I'm very opinionated about this one (but I also think I'm objective :) ). Clearly Lu should have won, and I think Michelle did as a reward for her amazing season. In the LP, Michelle did have better spins and more jumps, but she wasn't at her artistic peak in 1996. No way should she receive matching/higher presentation marks than a clean Lu. And technically, Michelle's jumps were still small and she flutzed. All 6 of Lu's jumps were textbook.

    From another standpoint, the judges should have been more respectful that Lu was the defending champion.
     
  11. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

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    Slutskayas performance was a mess IMO, although I do think she had a very good SP that year. I really think the momentum she had over the season helped her edge Buyrskaya for that medal. I agree too Szewcenko and Kwiatkowski were undermarked in the LP but I don't think either deserved to be on the podium.
     
  12. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Kwan and Slutskaya both had very strong seasons that year leading into Worlds, and that was definitely a huge plus for both in the judges eyes. I do think if Maria had landed her last triple loop she probably would have gotten the bronze though, despite that with that mistake she came nowhere close in the marks.
     
  13. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

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    Thats a good point about Kwans technical. Her jumps weren't high quality here as they would be ina few seasons. It was evident after the SP the judges were more on Kwans side when both went clean.

    I will say her double axel was beautiful though.
     
  14. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Kwan's SP was clearly better though. Slutskaya nearly was 2nd in the SP over Chen. Chen was never a top SP skater so I wouldnt read too much into that. She never won a short program in her career, and was only top 3 in the short program at 3 of the 6 World or Olympic events she medalled in.
     
  15. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Both Kwan and Chen deserved 6.0s for different reasons. Kwan for the intracacy of the program and Chen for mastery in execution.

    I can understand why Kwan edged Chen out on technical merit. For jumps, Kwan won on quantity and Chen on quality. For spins and other elements though, Kwan won on both and probably made the difference.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2013
  16. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Slute's Euro title helped her secure the bronze over Bute both in terms of reputation and Federation support / politiks.
     
  17. zigzig

    zigzig Member

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    I think Kwan's music could have been a factor in the way the performances were perceived. Her music built to an exciting climax at the end of the program which left people with an edge-of-their seat feeling (especially combined with the triple toe thrown in instead of the planned double axel). Chen's music faded away and while her program was beautifully choreographed, it just lacked the oomph of Kwan's program (the tension/excitement was probably enhanced by the fact that Kwan delivered under the pressure of skating after her main rival who received two 6.0s and seemed like a shoe-in for gold at that point).
     
  18. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

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    LOL, why is Slutskaya even an option at this championship? She was far below both Michelle and Lulu.

    I don't agree with the claim by some that Lu Chen should have won this event. Kwan had better spins, spirals, and an extra triple advantage over Lu Chen. Granted, Kwan was not the best spinner in the world, but her spins put Chen's to shame. Didn't Lu Chen even botch her layback spin in the SP of this event; I seem to recall it traveling all over the place enough for Dick Button to comment on it, as well as her very lackluster leg position on it. It was a very weak spin for her. Plus, she had basically tanked the entire season leading up to Worlds due to all the pressures from her federation, losing Skate America to Kwan, losing the Trophee Lalique to Josee Chouinard after Lulu plummeted to 7th place in the SP. She also fell to 4th at the Champion Series Final, losing to all of Kwan, Slutskaya, and Chouinard. By the time Worlds rolled around, she had lost any momentum she may have had being the defending champion considering she had not defeated Kwan all season long.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2013
  19. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

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    Nothing to see here; double post. :p
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2013
  20. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Michelle Kwan for me.
    In 1996, Lu Chen's performance really impressed me and I thought she should have won. But IMO, MK's program was more complete technically, and now, I think she deserve the title. Of course, I would have been happy with a title for Lu Chen.
     
  21. Sasha is DIVINE

    Sasha is DIVINE New Member

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    Lulu's superior artistry should have secured her the win. That program was a Sandra Bezic masterpiece!!
     
  22. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    It was ironic Bezic went head to head with Nichol and Kwan with Chen and lost, yet did so again with Tara and won. Granted Tara being a superior technical skater to Chen by a large margin sure helped, but amazingly Chen was as far from Kwan in artistic scores a the 96 Worlds and Tara was from Kwan at the 98 Olympics.
     
  23. mustafinabars

    mustafinabars Member

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    I thought Chen by far was winner of this event. I would give her 5.9 and 6.0. I would give Kwan 5.8 and 5.7. Slutskaya deserved 5.5 and 5.4 for her skate and should be nowhere near bronze. Butyrskaya 5.6 and 5.8, Szewcenko 5.5 and 5.7, and Bonaly 5.4 and 5.5. 8th was right for Kwiatkowski. Too old and ordinary even on a good day vs other top skaters.
     
  24. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

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    I absolutely loved both of their performances. I think MK won in 96 for the same reasons that Tara won in Nagano: skate order and higher technical content.
     
  25. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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    Chen's Spring Breeze program was divine - every movement was perfect with the music.
     
  26. DannyCurry

    DannyCurry Active Member

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    God, I'm so tired (and such an MK uber fan) that I voted for Michelle while I think Chen should have won that event. :shuffle:

    Rach and Salome are both exquisitely choreographed. However, in terms of performance and quality that night, Lu Chen was superior in my opinion. As much as I love Michelle, the landings of her 1st 3toe and second 3 lutz weren't so good there. And even if Michelle had one more triple, Lu Chen did have a second 2 axel, right after her 3 salchow. So, did Michelle really have that much of a higher jump content? Then, from the camera angle I can't tell for sure if some of Chen's delayed jumps were under-rotated. They seemed fine to me.

    If we include the SPs, Romanza, which is one of my fave SPs ever, was way above the rest of the field.

    Overall, it could have gone either way. And even though I may not agree with the final results, I'm more than fine with Michelle winning her first world title with that performance.
     
  27. kathy sullivan

    kathy sullivan Well-Known Member

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    From where I sit Michelle's program was just magical. It had me on the edge of me seat from the moment it started. The pressure for her to make no mistakes was tremendous and as Dick said, for me "she gave up nothing." It was that skate that made me a fan of skating and a fan of Michelle's. She WAS Salome. I loved the music, the intricate choreography, and the story her skate/ costume and character told - it was more than skating it was theater as well - and I love that. While it may not have been her most complicated program it remains my favorite program of hers ever, for all the reasons I said. I did not know much about skating at the time, and the rest of the programs including Lu Chen's made little impact. Having gone back with more informed eyes later I can see how well she skated, but Michelle had it all that night and brought skating alive for me. I still long for programs that have a story and a costume - that tell a story like a ballet or theater - as ballet was my love through my early adolescence. I wish today's skaters would become characters and skate a story - it enlivens the experience for me. I so dread programs of today when skaters skate through the music, knocking off elements as most do today.
     
  28. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

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    Well Kwan had a incredible season but she was overscored at one of her GPs against Butyrskaya who skated better. She also fell herself in the GP final in the SP, and had errors in her LP and some errors at Nats that year too in the LP so she was far from perfect. Kwan almost always managed to peak for Nats/ worlds/Olympics though, same as Chen.
     
  29. Rock2

    Rock2 Well-Known Member

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    I love Chen's program so much my posting name is derived from this program (and M/D's LP in Lillehammer)

    Chen undoubtedly had the regal skate of a champion; one of very few programs that brought tears to my eyes.

    Sadly though I'd have Michelle on top. The extra triple, better spins and non-jump content wins. Lulu's spins were HOR-RI-BLE. Few rotations, 3 of the 4 spins were 1 position and 'maybe' 5 rotations. Combo spin was wobbly. Completely inexcusable. If I factor emotion out of it I have Chen as 5.7/6.0. Michelle is 5.9/5.9.

    Now if you want to have a really fun poll, has anyone discussed 1997 worlds? Slutskaya's skate completely disrupted the placements -- or had potential to. I never did sit down and figure out if I agreed with the results. All I can say is that I liked Irina's skate.
     
  30. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

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    I think an argument for Slutskaya placing second in the LP over Lipinski is good. I would have had Gusmeroli off the podium, when factoring in Sp's Bute may have edged Slute if she had beaten Gusmeroli in the LP.